Attempt to Ban Bris Milah In San Francisco

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  • #596980
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is an attempt to Ban Bris Milah in San Francsico.

    A ballot inititive appears to have gained enough signatures to appear on the Ballot in San Francisco to ban bris milah

    7100 signatures were needed and 7700 were obtained

    It is probably unconstitutional if it passes

    #768097
    Getzel
    Participant

    chazal write that Bris milah is a shmirah against immorality, just wondering why San Fransisco?!

    #768098
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Because there is Ballot initives there, You only need 7100 signatures to get one.

    Its not hard to get that many signatures in a large city like San Francisco

    #768099
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think getzel was suggesting that there’s a spiritual connection.

    #768100
    canine
    Member

    San Fran is Sodom on the Pacific.

    #768101
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I’m sure it would be very contested. It will probably make it to the Federal Supeme Court. Although it might seem obvious that it is infringing on a group’s religious practice, rendering it unconstitutional, in the end, it’s in the hand of a judge — and as we know, they decide what they want to decide rather than what their deep pondering of the meaning of the law tells them.

    #768102
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In the end it would go to the Supreme Court in front of 9 justices.

    There is no way 5 justices would allow this law to stand. 3 of them are jewish (I know Ruth Bader Ginsburg has met Bais Yaakov School groups)

    #768103
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    There is no way 5 justices would allow this law to stand. 3 of them are jewish (I know Ruth Bader Ginsburg has met Bais Yaakov School groups)

    I highly doubt that any Justice of the Supreme Court is going to rule that way solely because they are Jewish.

    That being said, I’m kind of curious how this works since medicine is (I’m fairly certain) regulated by the state and not the city.

    The Wolf

    #768104
    Pac-Man
    Member

    In the end it would go to the Supreme Court in front of 9 justices.

    The Supreme Court refuses to hear most cases submitted to it.

    #768105
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    When the Supreme Court refuses to hear a case, it means it agrees with a lower court decision .

    #768106
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The Supreme Court refuses to hear most cases submitted to it.

    That’s absolutely true. It could very well end up in a lower Federal court or even a state court since the California Constitution also protects religious practices.

    From Article I, Section 4 of the California Constitution:

    SEC. 4. Free exercise and enjoyment of religion without

    discrimination or preference are guaranteed. This liberty of

    conscience does not excuse acts that are licentious or inconsistent with the peace or safety of the State. The Legislature shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

    The Wolf

    #768107
    Pac-Man
    Member

    When the Supreme Court refuses to hear a case, it means it agrees with a lower court decision .

    That isn’t correct.

    #768108

    When the Supreme Court refuses to hear a case, it means it agrees with a lower court decision

    thats not even close to the truth.

    the sc has many reasons to not hear cases, often because it feels the issues are not of a significant constitutional nature

    #768109
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If this is passed, it will presumably be challenged on two counts. First, that it infringes on the free exercise of religion, and second that it violates substantive due process under the 14th amendment.

    Both of these would be measured by weighing the individual need against the governmental interest. There is a pretty good argument here that there is a strong governmental interest, particularly where it is being done for religious reasons. This is not at all a slam dunk for us.

    As for the Supreme Court justices being Jewish, I highly doubt it will help us. They are from the liberal wing, which is quite hostile to any religion. Most of the petition was probably jews also.

    #768110
    aries2756
    Participant

    This is a very interesting situation. Because if it is brought to a vote or a protest both Jews and muslims will have to ban together to fight against this and we would win. The ARABS would revolt in protest and the jews will demonstrate in peace.

    #768111
    RSRH
    Member

    Sorry, but the Supreme Court will likely never hear this case. The law, if it passes, most likely DOES NOT violate the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, which only prohibits the government from passing laws that specifically target religious practice. Here, the City of San Francisco has any number of neutral and secular objectives with which it can justify a circumcision ban. As Poppa pointed out, there may be a Due Process claim here, since parents could argue that the law infringes on their privacy. The problem is, Due Process does not protect people from acting in a way that the State sees as harming others in a direct tangible way. I assume the City will be able to provide sufficient evidence that the ban is needed to protect the physical integrity of the child.

    Really, the issue is not particularly novel or substantial in constitutional terms, and it will likely go no further than the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.

    The State constitutional claim is another matter entirely. I know next to nothing about California constitutional law, so I can’t comment meaningfully. based purely on the language, however, it seems that the California Free Exercise provision likely provides no more protection than the First Amendment.

    #768112
    Getzel
    Participant

    Daas Yochid i obviously was saying that… but i won”t write it out here Vhamivin Yuvin..

    #768113
    smile66
    Member

    Wow, that is so hypocritical it’s not normal.

    Yes, everyone should have the right to freedom in literally all aspects of life, to the extent that everyone should be allowed to marry gay. But the right to be Jewish, that’s different.

    The world today…..

    #768114
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If anyone wants to read about the legal issues, I found an article which seems to go through the issues pretty well.

    See Sarah E. Waldeck, Using Male Circumcision to Understand Social Norms as Multipliers, 72 U. Cin. L. Rev. 455, 515 (2003)

    The general rule is that “the Free Exercise Clause permits a law that burdens religion as long as the law is neutral, generally applicable, and is not passed to ban behavior solely because of its religious motivation.” The leading case on this is Oregon v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872 (1990).

    However, the Court also said there in dicta that when another constitutional claim besides for free exercise is also implicated, then there is an even stricter level of review. That would likely apply here, because of the due process claim.

    Also, there might be an issue here since it would practically make it impossible to live as a Jew or Moslem, like Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510 (1925), which struck down a law prohibiting parochial schools. Apparently, this makes it much harder, although I am not sure how.

    This article concludes that a law requiring anesthesia would probably stand, but not a law banning bris altogether.

    #768115
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Like many secular people, they are not looking to protect Freedom of Religion, they are looking to establish Freedom from Religion and along with it it the attempt to eradicate all vestiges of religious practice.

    #768116
    smile66
    Member

    apushatayid – so true

    #768117
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It’s interesting how Freedom of Religion was invented to protect religious people and practice, and is now used precisely for the opposite goal.

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