Being able to Fargin; Nature or Nurture?

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  • #587926

    nameless
    Member

    There have been countless letters to the editor on the subject of austentaious simchas and how people should stick to the takanos etc. Well for all you ‘bleeding hearts’ out there who are genuinely concerned that your next door neighbour might go into to debt just to be able to ‘keep up with the Joneses’, Kol hakovod to you!(although I think you guys make up a tiny minority)

    However, there are many who EVEN criticize those who can INDEED afford it. Thats my question,is this a concern because you feel a rich man should pose as an example, or does this stem from plain jeolousy?? Should we not perhaps try to educate our kids to fargin in the first place instead of turning this around and imposing on others to keep a low profile because the fact is, you probably wont change anything;

    Is jealousy something we can work on, or is it engrained in our charchter?

    An inspirational story that happened not long ago:

    There was a 17 year old girl who got into an accident which left her in a coma till she was 90 years old. Because she lived in a town without a Jewish Kehila, she was buried in a Non Jewish cemetary.

    Just recently, a family member arranged that her remains should be transferd to Eretz Yisroel. When they excavated the corpse they were stunned to see that her body remained in tact! We all know that besides for Tzaddikim, bodies decompose.

    The issue was brought to the attention of a famous Gadol(I think it was Rav Chaim Kanievsky, but I’m not sure) and he confirmed that since this woman was 12 years old, SHE WAS NEVER JEALOUS OF ANYONE!

    Please share your thoughts,,,,,

  • #619949

    willi
    Member

    Farginning / jealousy is a nature.

    But of course, everything can be worked on. That’s why we came here on this world..

  • #619950

    Anonymous

    the story is really inspiring…but was she 12 or 17? And yes we can probably all work on our jealousy issues.

  • #619951

    Joseph
    Member

    nameless, you make some very nice sentimental value judgments that sounds very correct. But the takanos were made by the Rabbonim, who certainly you will concede are far wiser than you. So how do you bring yourself to question the wisdom of the Gedolim who established the takanos?

  • #619952

    I think it is quite clear that the sole purpose of the takana was to make an excuse for those who want one. No one else seems to have listened.

  • #619953

    nameless
    Member

    Teenof13,

    She was 17 when the accident happend but since the day she was 12, she was never jealous of anyone.

    Joseph,

    Apparantly its brought down somewhere that one must give Kovod to a Rich man!

    Thats exactly what the Gedolim DO, whether they adhere to the takonos or not. Rabonim WILL attend a wedding and keep a kesher with those even if they dont always stickto these rules, so I think my question is quite valid!

    When was the last time you heard a RAV say he will not be misader kiddushin at a wedding unless he is assured by the baal simcha that everything will be within the bounderies of the takanos???

  • #619954

    nameless
    Member

    Besides, the only reason these Takonos were made was becasue the Chinuch is apprantly distorted. My point was, that if everyone were taught to be happy with their lot , these restrictions would not be neccessary!

  • #619955

    nameless
    Member

    Joseph,

    I wrote a post in response to your question and for some reason it didnt make it to the board,,,,,,

    But on the subject of ‘questioning Rabonim’, are you aware that many Gedolim prohibit the use of the internet?? (due to tznius issues, which YOU CLEARLY want to improve,whichis obvious in all your comments on thissite)

    Atleast ‘I’ am only seeking answers, YOU are too ‘holy’ to question them, yet in this case, TOTALLY contradicitng them,,,,,

    Can you please elaborate on your double standard here?

  • #619956

    cantoresq
    Member

    I don’t believe the story and want to see proof.

  • #619957

    tvt
    Member

    Josephf said:

    …the takanos were made by the Rabbonim, who certainly you will concede are far wiser than you. So how do you bring yourself to question the wisdom of the Gedolim who established the takanos?…

    Reb Yosef, At the risk of taking this thread off on a tangent I have to take issue with the basic point here. Yes…you are right, the takanos were made by the gedolim (actually drafted by baalei batim and signed by gedolim). Yes…the gedolim are far wiser than me.

    So how can I question the takanos, you ask?

    Simple.

    Have you noticed that almost every single Rav who signed the takanos was a Rosh yeshivah rather than a communal Rav? Are you aware that many communal rabbonim were approached to sign on and flat out refused?

    Have you wondered why?

    I’ll tell you why. because it is not a simple matter. And like so many issued in our community today there can be more than one approach that has a basis in Daas Torah. The simple truth is that if prominent gedolim can disagree so diametrically about an issue, then questioning one side is not questioning the wisdom of the gedolim, it is simplty expressing that your intuition aligns with other gedolim.

    This aplies to ALMOST evgery issue debated on this blog.

  • #619958

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    There was a 17 year old girl who got into an accident which left her in a coma till she was 90 years old.

    Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. The longest coma on record has been for 37 years. This sounds like a Jewish Urban Legend. Can you provide any more details to corroborate the story?

    The Wolf

  • #619959

    nameless
    Member

    Cantoresque says;

    I don’t believe the story and want to see proof.

    Nothing personal, but I’ve read a lot of your comments and sad to say, there are alot of things ‘you dont believe’ and I’m sorry for you.

    But for the record, I heard this story at a shiur recently given by a Rebetzin who happens to be the granddaughter of Reb YY Herman, the subject of the book ‘All for the Boss’,,,,,

    Reliable enough???

  • #619960

    nameless
    Member

    Oh and Mr. Musings,

    If the Almighty decides that he wants someone to be in a coma for over 70 years, thats exactly whats gona happen;))))))) ‘Record Shmecord…..

  • #619961

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Reliable enough???

    Not for me. Not everything said by a rebbetzin (even if she’s the daughter of a rav covered in a book) is true.

    As I stated above, the longest known medical coma is 37 years. Now, you’re telling me of a coma that lasted 73 years, more than double the length of the known record. I would think that if someone was in a coma that long, it would certainly have been written up in medical literature. There would certainly be records available to corroborate the story. Can you provide any? A name, a place, dates? Anything?

    Until then, I’m calling the story an Urban Legend.

    The Wolf

  • #619962

    Joseph
    Member

    Wolf,

    Lets ask of you, what you asked of others. What is YOUR source as to what is the longest known coma in medical history, as you claimed above?

  • #619963

    nameless
    Member

    I REPEAT or rather follow up;

    If G-d wants something to happen which exceeds the natural, IT WILL HAPPEN . The fact that you dont know about it, doesnt make it untrue!

  • #619964

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If the Almighty decides that he wants someone to be in a coma for over 70 years, thats exactly whats gona happen

    That’s right. And if He decides that a huge sea squid is going to swallow downtown Johannesburg, then it will happen to. But that doesn’t mean that it *did*.

    The same applies to your coma story. Sure it can happen – but that doesn’t mean it did. I’m still calling it an Urban Legend.

    The Wolf

  • #619965

    nameless
    Member

    Musings,

    So YOUR still calling it an Urban Legend while a reputable Rebetzin confirms it!

    Sorry pal, I think i’ll go along with Rabbi Herman’s grandaughter!

  • #619966

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    nameless,

    And again, I’m not denying that God has the power to make it happen… I’m denying that it actually happened. Can you see the difference?

    Jospeh,

    My primary source is the Guinness Book of World Records. Elaine Esposito, of Tarpon Springs, FL, went into a coma on Aug 6, 1941 and never stirred again. She died on November 25, 1978 — over 37 years later. If you google “Elaine Esposito coma” you will come up with numerous sources.

    Other than a “it once happened…” nameless has not provided a name, place or date for his story. Usually that’s the hallmark of an Urban Legend.

    The Wolf

  • #619967

    Dear nameless,

    Do you know the difference between past tense and future tens? You should see the article entitled “Get Education”

  • #619968

    nameless
    Member

    ACTUALLY, I know recall she said the story happened somewhere in Austria.

    Musings says:

    ‘I’m not denying that God has the power to make it happen,,,,,,,

    How admirable of you! But now that we both agree that G-d rules the world, he obviously didnt want this story to be publicized in the Guinness Book of records, and frankly, thats why you havent heard of it!

  • #619970

    mosherose
    Member

    “So YOUR still calling it an Urban Legend while a reputable Rebetzin confirms it!

    Sorry pal, I think i’ll go along with Rabbi Herman’s grandaughter!”

    What do you want from him. Sam Berger’s demonstrated time and again that he doesn’t believe in anything the gedolim or reputable people say. Of all of our “pro-freikeit” posters on these boards, I’d put him at the top of the list.

  • #619971

    ujm
    Member

    mosherose, is that the name of the same person who made the comment here?

  • #619973

    zachw
    Member

    I agree with Wolf. A simple internet search does not return ANYTHING about a so-called 73 year coma. Such an amazing medical event would certainly have been well-publicized if it were true. The Rebbetzin either heard wrong or her story was recorded wrong.

  • #619975

    nameless
    Member

    zachw

    Please do a ‘simple internet search’ on how long a corpse can remain buried before it deteriorates. I doubt you will be able to establish that the RIGHTEOUS dont decompose . However thats what WE believe.

    I dont think you have a problem with THIS particular story. Had the coma lasted 35 years and HAD been recorded, you would have doubted that the body remained in tact because a ‘simple google search ‘ wouldnt have confirmed it.

    How Pathetic!

  • #619976

    cantoresq
    Member

    Cantoresque says;

    I don’t believe the story and want to see proof.

    Nothing personal, but I’ve read a lot of your comments and sad to say, there are alot of things ‘you dont believe’ and I’m sorry for you.

    But for the record, I heard this story at a shiur recently given by a Rebetzin who happens to be the granddaughter of Reb YY Herman, the subject of the book ‘All for the Boss’,,,,,

    Reliable enough???

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Not reliable enough. If this sroty actualy happened, it should not be too difficult to verify. what was the girl’s name, where did she live? Where is she buried etc. After all if she were in a coma for that long people, beyond her parents, took care of her. Who were they? Some detail, that ought to be readily available, should be forthcoming. And I’m sorry, the fact that a rebbetzin parroted it back is dispositive of nothing.

  • #619977

    nameless
    Member

    Cantoresque,

    Have you ever attended an evening where a famous speaker adressed the public?

    MOST of the time you will not hear him telling a story while including the ‘name, rank and seriel number’ of the subjects involved. That doesnt mean the story aint true!

    Furthermore, if Rebetzin Miller mentioned that name of Hagoan Rav Chaim KANIEVSKY IN CONNECTION TO THIS STORY, you can be sure it happened. But then again, ‘ONCE a NON BELIEVER, Always a NON BELIEVER’!

  • #619978

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    <i>Have you ever attended an evening where a famous speaker adressed the public?

    MOST of the time you will not hear him telling a story while including the ‘name, rank and seriel number’ of the subjects involved. That doesnt mean the story aint true!</i>

    Correct… but that doesn’t mean that it is true either. Don’t you think it’s within the realm of possibility that the story teller was either mistaken or embellishing a story to make a point?

    As for non-decaying bodies, I would believe it over the story of a 73 year coma for two reasons:

    1. Bodies that don’t decay *do* sometimes happen.

    2. The amount of evidence left behind by an undecayed body that was quickly reburied would be very small. The amount of evidence left behind by a 73 year coma patient would be great. A great deal of medical record-keeping and literature would have been generated by such a case. And yet, not one shred of evidence has turned up.

    ‘ONCE a NON BELIEVER, Always a NON BELIEVER’!

    What is that meant to imply? Are you implying that because I don’t believe a girl was in a coma for 73 years that I don’t believe anything? Please tell me what you meant by that statement.

    The Wolf

  • #619979

    Think BIG
    Member

    cantersque:

    It IS hard to believe she was in a coma for 73 years, but that is besides the point. Even if she were in a coma for 37 years, (its possible someone misunderstood over here) that was not the point of the story. The point was that her lack of jealousy saved her from decomposing. Don’t pick one detail of the story that sounds exagerated (it may or may not be) to invalidate the story. The idea that a reighteous person does not decompose is not a new one, there are lots of reliable stories with that theme. (if you want verification of this concept, you can probably find it easily enough, though not of this particular story, by asking the Chevra Kadisha in Eetz Yisroel, or authors like Pesach Krohn who reputedly research their stories)

    But it takes a gadol of the caliber of R’ Kanievsky to posit a reason why a person merited this zechus.

  • #619980

    cantoresq
    Member

    Cantoresque,

    Have you ever attended an evening where a famous speaker adressed the public?

    MOST of the time you will not hear him telling a story while including the ‘name, rank and seriel number’ of the subjects involved. That doesnt mean the story aint true!

    Furthermore, if Rebetzin Miller mentioned that name of Hagoan Rav Chaim KANIEVSKY IN CONNECTION TO THIS STORY, you can be sure it happened. But then again, ‘ONCE a NON BELIEVER, Always a NON BELIEVER’!

    Posted 3 hours ago #

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Nameless

    I’ve been to many such events. Bu my attendance creates no obligation to believe everything said there. Moreover, recent events well indicate the (il)legitimacy of taking things at face value simply because they are said in the name of a gadol. Moreover, I’m not an unbeliever, rather I choose to think before believing.

  • #619981

    aidle maidle
    Participant

    WolfishMusings,

    I find it amazing that you believe so strongly in your “primary source”. A Rebetzin gave this story by a shiur and yet you still stick to only believing the facts which Google/the Guinness Book of World Records writes of….interesting.

    nameless (and Joseph!),

    I totally agree with your comments on this one!

  • #619982

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    oy, I could express myself differently but oy! is enough! allow one of the “pro’freikeit” people on this website to comment….this whole story is a fairy tale and , regardless whether a rebbetzin told the tale or that she mentioned Rav Kanievsky’s name (who did not comment upon the lenght of the coma,btw), it is a story for the gullible. Hakodush boruch hu does not make miracles to please “nameless”. And, just because a few of us don’t believe in fairy tales does not make us “kofrim” (I am anticpating a comment by Joseph).BTW, I DO believe in jeshuos from rebbes!

  • #619983

    favish
    Member

    choni hamgol slept 70 years (tanis 23),is it mentioned in guinness book of world records? If not we shouldnt believe it?.Rip van vinkle we definately dont believe, but pretty sure its derived from this story in tanis. some say the author of “frankestein”,, the idea came from the golem that the MEHAREL MIPRAG created…by the way wolfmusing does the guinness book mention the “golem? on the other hand,maybe you means since it was resently we shoul’ve heard about it

    . on the other hand the use of the term “urban jewish legends ” that wolf uses…trying to comprehend what you mean, so the tanis gemmrah included?

  • #619984

    favish
    Member

    p.s. to my post pg 2. some complain, in other articles, that we bring our “proofs” to “points” we make from the “talmud”…(their comments are in sarcasam {hyphens are in their postings , )..since we’re not aqauinted with new test…, koran and its interpetations,shakespheare,henry wadsfel longfellow,etc so we’re “stuck” c’vs and have to bring our “points” from talmud etc.

  • #619985

    cantoresq
    Member

    Let me make this clear. I don’t believe there was a girl, relevant to this conversation, in a coma for 73 or 37 years or any length of time. I don’t believe there was a girl, relevant to this conversation, whose body did not decompose after she died (in fact I have a ahrd time believing the entire decomposition thing. And BTW, they say that Vlad the Impaler [the basis for the Dracula story] also didn’t decompose so go figure). And finally, until I see it on his letterhead with a verified signiture, or I witness him say from his own mouth I don’t believe R. Chaim Kanievsky chimed in on this nonsense. GROW UP PEOPLE!!! the time for fairy tales ended with kindergaarten.

  • #619986

    Think BIG
    Member

    rabbiofberlin:

    “Hakodush boruch hu does not make miracles to please “nameless”. ” Are you for real??

    HKB”H has His own reasons for making miracles which neither you or I are privy to! But in this case, even if you don’t want to believe the story, it’s pretty rediculous to say Hashem doesn’t make miracles to please nameless. Nameless was merely repeating a story she HEARD, for goodness sakes!

    Also, can you explain to me how you resolve this contradiction in your personality: if I believe this “tale” told over by a chashuva women in the name of the Gadol Hador, I am “gullible”, But, you “DO believe in jeshuos from rebbes!” Isn’t that slightly two-faced?

  • #619987

    nameless
    Member

    ‘Rabbi’of Berlin, SAYS;

    this whole story is a fairy tale and , regardless whether a rebbetzin told the tale or that she mentioned Rav Kanievsky’s name (who did not comment upon the lenght of the coma,btw), it is a story for the gullible. Hakodush boruch hu does not make miracles to please “nam

    YOU dont know that for a fact and ADAMANTLY claiming that its a fairlytale is CERTAINLY not your right to say, MR. Berlin! The interesting point here as that the other posters are just challenging THIS part of the story, yet YOU deny the whole thing WITHOUT even giving credit to the fact that lack of JEALOUSY saved this girl from deteriorating (as Rav Chaim pointed out) YOU ARE A KOIFER, my friend!

    Musings,

    THNIK BIG hit the target. The point of the story was not impressive to anyone here who had a problem with the length of the coma(sadly). Instead of being in awe about the basic facts, you constantly harp on, the side issue.

    Jent,,,

    Very well said!

  • #619988

    nameless
    Member

    Musings says;

    As for non-decaying bodies, I would believe it over the story of a 73 year coma for two reasons:

    1. Bodies that don’t decay *do* sometimes happen.

    2. The amount of evidence left behind by an undecayed body that was quickly reburied would be very small. The amount of evidence left behind by a 73 year coma patient would be great. A great deal of medical record-keeping and literature would have been generated by such a case. And yet, not one shred of evidence has turned up.

    Excuse me, are you saying that you believe that bodies dont decay because ‘SCIENCE’ PROVED IT?? Not because the Righteous merited that zechus?? Again, you are looking at sources which can be bogus. Does the GUINESS book of records list the Parting of the Yam Suf as one of the biggest miracels ever??

  • #619990

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    No, that’s not what I’m saying… and I’ll thank you not to put words into my mouth.

    I believe that bodies don’t decay on occasion for both reasons. Just like I believe the sun will rise in the morning because Chazal tell us this and because I can see it with my own eyes.

    And you still haven’t addressed my point. A person in a coma for 73 years in the modern era would have left behind an enormous amount of evidence. The fact that there is no such evidence is a fairly strong indication that it didn’t happen.

    (And the comparisons to Choni HaMa’agol are invalid in any event… Choni’s 70 year sleep would not have left behind any evidence that we can find today, so I would not rule it out on the basis of there being no evidence. A modern-day coma, on the other hand, *can* be ruled out based on the lack of evidence).

    The Wolf

  • #619991

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    YOU ARE A KOIFER, my friend!

    So, if someone doesn’t believe that a girl sat in a coma for 73 years that makes her a kofer? Gee, I wasn’t aware that that was one of the ikkarei emunah.

    The Wolf

  • #619992

    nameless
    Member

    Cantoresque says;

    ‘I’ve been to many such events. Bu my attendance creates no obligation to believe everything said there.’

    Are you implying that these reputable prominate speakers who have the support of our Gedolim are BLATANT LIARS?? Because frankly, there is no middle way. Its either you believe them, or you think they are trying to deceive us,

    You continue by saying;

    , they say that Vlad the Impaler [the basis for the Dracula story] also didn’t decompose

    Who is ‘THEY’ sir??

    But you take FIRST PRIZE for this;

    or I witness him say from his own mouth I don’t believe R. Chaim Kanievsky chimed in on this nonsense

    Frankly I dont know how your not embarrassed to even make such a statement on a Yeshiva Web site.To even suggest that a Gadol like Rav Kaniesvsky should even sink to the level of one who questions the credibility of any Talmid Chochom who quotes him, is outrageous!

    You apparantly are struggling with your beliefs and its obvious in all your posts!

  • #619993

    favish
    Member

    to nameless..cantor esg and his friends will faster believe that santa claus will fill his stockings down the chimeny than belive in these “myth bearing , revisionist” stories(his language .if want reference will post) . see sefer “sipirei chassidim” from harav zeven on the posik “vlo cohaso eino vlo nos leicho” , he brings mayses of tzaddikim the they had to be transported and they were as fresh as the day they died, mir can bring what we read recently in one of the artstrolll a similar story but too long. may nexrt post e’yiha..as matter of fact af friend of mine mentioned similar story on the holy igros moishe..next post..” remeber this poster is against chreidi belives ..see his posting may 3 article “charedi weeklies”

  • #619994

    favish
    Member

    the problem with these anti “myth bearing ,revisionts rabbis” etc.(his term not mine)is not that they dont belive this stoy but the dont belive this whole concept plus others ….se our post regarding this issue (if mderator will post..

  • #619995

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    to nameless, I have been posting for a while on this website and I have never called anyone anything. I have more respect for people. Calling me a “koifer” is infantile because it is just an insult, based on nothing you can point to.It borders on motzi shem rah. I will ask you to retract this. I am moichel you in advance but you have to stop calling me something that you do not have a scintilla of evidence for.

    As to the substance of the matter, I called the story of the woman in a coma for 70 years a “fairy tale”. So what? Did Rav Kanievsky coem out sand say that this is a fact? All he said was that her non-decomposed body was due to the fact that she had no jealousy. The fact that the body did not decompose is either the truth or not. As they say ” neisei sefer venechze”. If there are witnesses that the body did not decompose, then so be it. All that Rav Kanievsky said was that this was due to the fact that she had no jealousy.

    As far as miracles for you or anyone else, it is absolutely a fact that real miracles are not made to measure by Hakodesh Boruch Huh. If you merit a real miracle, then you saure a better person than anyone else in this world.

    It is symptomatic of anyone that has no real answer to insult the questioner. I suggest you treat everyone with more respect.

  • #619996

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    To Think Big,

    I absolutely believe in “jeshuos” by rebbes and, may I add, by other righteous men like Roshei yeshiva. There are many. many stories, OF TODAY, that people were helped. This does not mean that miracles occur on a daily basis, certainly not “nissim geluim”. BUT, if someone gets cured from an illness or has a financial success afteer he asks for it from a rebbe, then I ,personally , believe that the tefillos have helped.

    And, yes, I also believe in Eretz Yisreol being a “nes benistar”. SO, I may have a split personality but I recognize what der eibershter shows me and here, he has shown that jeshuos help and that Eretz Yisroel is a berocho to all Klal Yisroel.

  • #619997

    nameless
    Member

    Musings says:

    ‘No thats not what I’m saying……I’ll thank you not to put words in my mouth’

    And I will thank you not to do a ‘wriggling out routine’

    Reread your post, there is not mention of anything beyond what’s scientifically evident.

    Yes, I adressed your point but I will repeat. There are lots of medical miracles which are not on record. I personally know of a frum guy who had nissim which doctors till this day cant figure out and its not public knowlege. In fact there is a non frum guy who was clinquely dead for a while and then returned. I posted the link on another blog. The Guiness Book of records includes topics which they are informed about. Many people want there experiences secret, and if they forbid their medical experts to release any information, their will must be respected by law.

    But I challenge you to verify if your Guiness Book of Records lists the following information:

    Tallest man that ever lived……..Og Melech Haboshon(actually I think they list a guy by the name of Robert Wadlow from Michigan, who was barely 8 feet tall, lol)

    Oldest man……….Mesushelach

    Biggest disaster in history……..the Mabul

    Biggest miracle……..parting of the Yam suf??

    Please , I challenge you..

    And I repeat, anyone who questions something said by a reputable source in the name of a Gadol, borders on heresy

  • #619998

    Think BIG
    Member

    to Rabbiof berlin:

    again, you seem to have a short memory recall. you write:

    to nameless, I have been posting for a while on this website and I have never called anyone anything. I have more respect for people.

    see my comment on “why yidden are best” where i quote you degrading a whole sector of the Jewish world. Perhaps you should take a more honest look at yourself.

    Secondly, as you responded to Nameless, “All he said was that her non-decomposed body was due to the fact that she had no jealousy. The fact that the body did not decompose is either the truth or not. As they say ” neisei sefer venechze”. If there are witnesses that the body did not decompose, then so be it. All that Rav Kanievsky said was that this was due to the fact that she had no jealousy.”

    So now you’re trying to say that Rav Kanievski, shlita, gadol Hador made a conclusion about the REASON why the body did not compose but did not necessarily believe the story happened? Excuse me, but did i miss something over here???

    also, care to explain this line which i also just dont get? (excuse my feeble mind): “As far as miracles for you or anyone else, it is absolutely a fact that real miracles are not made to measure by Hakodesh Boruch Huh.”

    As to your last comment about yeshuos from rebbes do you mean to say that you do not believe in any story that seems “miraculous” unless there was a rebbe or Tzaddik involved in it? For exemple, if someone you know was saved from a terrible accident, and the doctors said they can’t believe anyone survived- it must be miraculous—you wouldn’t believe that it was a miracle, just because a rebbe didnt forsee it? Isn’t your definition a bit narrow?

  • #620000

    cantoresq
    Member

    Cantoresque says;

    ‘I’ve been to many such events. Bu my attendance creates no obligation to believe everything said there.’

    Are you implying that these reputable prominate speakers who have the support of our Gedolim are BLATANT LIARS?? Because frankly, there is no middle way. Its either you believe them, or you think they are trying to deceive us,

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Quite the contrary. I imply to intent at deception at all. I’m certain the rebbetzin who repeaed this fairy tale firmly believes it. But her belief in it does not make it true.

    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    You continue by saying;

    , they say that Vlad the Impaler [the basis for the Dracula story] also didn’t decompose

    Who is ‘THEY’ sir??

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    The archeologists who found his grave in the church of an old monastary in Romania.

    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    But you take FIRST PRIZE for this;

    or I witness him say from his own mouth I don’t believe R. Chaim Kanievsky chimed in on this nonsense

    Frankly I dont know how your not embarrassed to even make such a statement on a Yeshiva Web site.To even suggest that a Gadol like Rav Kaniesvsky should even sink to the level of one who questions the credibility of any Talmid Chochom who quotes him, is outrageous!

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Please!!! Do you really eepxpect me to believe that geolim are never misquoted? Do you think for a second that I’ll accept the notion that gedolim are no misinformed by unscrupulous people? Don’t be ridiculous

    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    You apparantly are struggling with your beliefs and its obvious in all your posts!

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Halevai we should all struggle with our beliefs. Without the struggle that comes from true introspection, we would never grow.

  • #620001

    nameless
    Member

    Cantoresque response with regard to who says dracula’s body never deteriorated:

    ‘The archeologists who found his grave in the church of an old monastary in Romania.’

    Well, I have a better Yichus! The reason ‘I’ believe Tzaddikim dont compose is

    because thats what our Chachomim claim.

    Then you say;

    ‘Without the struggle that comes from true introspection, we would never grow….’

    Your not growing very well sir, in that area. Apparantly the vitamins available are not having a very positive affect on you!

  • #620003

    nameless
    Member

    Cantoresque says;

    ‘Quite the contrary. I imply to intent at deception at all. I’m certain the rebbetzin who repeaed this fairy tale firmly believes it. But her belief in it does not make it true.

    Are you implying that you are moe intelligent and less gullible than they are sir?

  • #620004

    favish
    Member

    to cantoresg… page3..and the archeologists statements is as valid ‘ k’moshe mipi hagvurah’?, are these the kind of people that you rely on ‘historical truths’?(remember article ‘charedi weeklies’ may 3, 08?, wont go searching again so kinly cantor esq..have always ready at your fingertips, because we are not going to let anyone forget about your anti ‘myth bearing, revisionist ‘ rabbis which was and is tzaddikai gedolai oilom..) so what shmutz archeologists say, is hitorical truths, but what, lets say , the wholy tzadik, einikel of the chasam soifer writes in ‘chut hamshilesh’ is mythbearing, now we got you more into your net, ‘bor kurh vyachpereihu, vayipol beshacas yifol…tehilem 4-5 (?0

  • #620005

    cantoresq
    Member

    Nameless I imply nothing and stand by what I said. I don’t believe, not for a second that was a girl who lay in a coma for 73 or 37 years whose bpdy did not decompose after she died. I do not believe that R. Chaim Kanievsky gets involved in fairy tales.

    But something else occured to me last night. According to those who believe this silliness, please explain why the girl merited such a fate? While it is true she was never jealous, given her circumstances, why is that such a big deal? After all she was in a coma and not a position to ever be jealous. Also, let’s not forget, she never davened, never made a bracha on food, was never mechabedet her parents, never married and and had children etc. Those of you who place such great stock in this nonsense, please explain that to me.

  • #620006

    tzippi
    Member

    Back to the original question: yes, we definitely should fargin.

  • #620007

    nameless
    Member

    ‘Nameless I imply nothing ,,,,,,,

    THATS A COP OUT SIR!!! Yes ITS obvious that you are INDEED implying that you have more intelligence and are less gullible than people who are in a higher position of Torah authority than you are,

    So the problem is not with this story, its with your lack of belief in general,

    ”But something else occured to me last night. ‘

    I see this issue is really sitting on your mind sir. For someone who deems this a fairy tale, I must say you are quite occupied with it; Do you obsess with ‘Sleeping Beuty and Cindarella as well?

    The girl was fine till she was 17 years old and had ^plenty of oppertunity to envy

    others.

    As far as the second part of your question is concderned, I plead the fifth, Never claimed to play G-d and still dont!

  • #620008

    anon for this
    Participant

    Why does one need to believe this story about in order to understand the importance of not being jealous of others? I, like several other posters, believe that it’s likely that the Rebbetzin was somehow mistaken in her information (although I don’t believe she is C”V trying to mislead anyone), but the fact that this story can’t be verified by outside sources doesn’t negate the importance of this particular midah.

  • #620009

    Joseph
    Member

    “I plead the fifth”

    nameless,

    I must rule you out of order! In Europe you enjoy no 5th Amendment constitutional protections. This is a right enjoyed by Americans, per our Constitution. (You are always welcome to return to your native homeland if you so desire such rights…)

  • #620010

    nameless
    Member

    Anon for this;

    Assuming the Rebetzin was somehow mistaken in her info and implying that the whole thing is a Fairy tale plus denying that Tzaddikim dont decompose, are two totally differnet things!

  • #620011

    lammed hey
    Member

    Don’t believe anything unless you hear it from that person’s mouth (unless it it lashon hara, which then who knows!)

    Jealousy is bad. (LO S’ACHMOD! 🙂

  • #620012

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    to think big, I did not recall writng anything negative in any posting about “why yidden are best’ and so I went back and read your posting and the indication about the words that were written by me. And, you know what, I do indeed have to ask mechilleh from the people I have insulted. As they say in hilchos teshuvo, “kechatuo kein teshuvuso”, as I sinned on this website, I have to ask mechillah and make teshuvah on this website.

    I retract my terms about the litvishe oilam, especially the words about “sonei yisroel”. (I do not remember writing it, but I’ll take your word for it.)That truly is impardonable. I will retract my other words about them too,which I will not mention again.

    I will stick to my determination not to call people any kind of names. Again, I will aks mechillah on this website from people I have insulted.It was done in a intemperate moment and I deeply feel sorry for it.

    However, this is does NOT mean that I agree with their ‘shittos” or with their approach to yiddishkeit and their attitude to other Yidden. Indeed, I believe that some of their shittos are totally wrong, whether it has to do with Eretz Yisroel, or the imposition of a new concept of “emunas chachomim”, which never existed. See the comment by nameless about questioning the words of a godol bordering on heresy. This is so far off the reservation because it puts about 99.99% of the Yidden in the “heresy” camp. After all, there are always different views on every matter.Which of the two Satmarer camps is the “koifer”? Which of the various camps in yeshivas ponevez is the heretic one? You can see how this becomes totally preposterous,if applied to its ultimat absurdity..

    IY”H, I will restrict my comments to debating the issue and not calling anyone

    names. A start to Elul…

    As far as the story of the coma….Did Rav Kanievsky SAY that there was a seventy year coma? Or DID he just say that the reason why the body was not decomposed was because of the reason quoted? After all of the dozens of postings on this, we still don’t know that. And, additonally, pray tell me, do I have to believe in Rav Kaniesky’s every word? In other words, are R’Chaim kanievsky’s words infallible? You have to tell me that because this is the crux of the issue throughout many of these postings. What indeed, are we obliged to believe. And, remember, whatever you will answer, you will also have to tell me why the words of Rav Kook ,for example, are less reliable that the Chazon Ish, or why the words of the Lubavticher Rebbe are less athoritative than Rav Shach’s.

    Concerning jeshuos from zaddikim. Of course, when something unusual happens, you may consider it a ness. I do firmly beleive that EVERYTHING is min hashomaim, so, of course, anything that happens to someone , regardless of who interceded, can be qualified as a ness. What I have said consistently, is, that “nissim geluim” (like Kerias Yam Suf) only happened once in our history. From time to time, during the neviim, for example,there may have been individual nissim ,bu ,in general, it is the Jad hashem “benister” that guides us today.

    IF the story of the 73-year coma would have been WITNESSED by someone reliable, then, you could say that this was indeed a nes by itself, albeit a nes shebenistar, because it is, after all, POSSIBLE to have a long coma.

    The problem with this story is that is is just that, a story, and none actually confirmed this. Hence ,it remains a story and nothing more ( I will never call it a fiary tale again, out of respect)

    There are hundreds of stories about Chassidishe rebbes and nissim. Pray tell me, do YOU believe in all of them? Or does your “emunah’ stop at R’Chaim kanievsky shelita?

    I am not sure what your question about miracles is. Hakodesh Boruch does indeed mke miracles. My point was that, just because “nameless” believes it doesn’t mean that it must be.

  • #620013

    squeak
    Participant

    If I may, I’d like to point out that the two sides of argument about the Guiness Book of World Records are one and the same. No, Guiness does not record Choni Ham’agel or Krias Yam Suf or Og Melech Haboshon, etc. That is because it has criteria for what events are recorded. Those criteria protect the integrity of the information contained in the book. Robert Wadlow (at nearly 9 feet) is the world’s tallest man ON RECORD. There is no dispute even amongst the staff of Guiness that these records may have been exceeded at some point in time but such an occurance never took place in accordance with their criteria.

    When you hear on the news that today’s temperature is a “record high”, do you start calling the newscaster a “koifer” because the mai mabul were boiling hot and the temperature was likely over 200 degrees at that time? No, because you understand that the “record” is just that – a database of recorded information. Temperatures before a certain date were not recorded and are therefore not included in the record.

    If an individual had been kept alive in a coma for 73 years IN RECENT HISTORY, it is very unlikely that it would not be recorded. Let me put that another way. If you want to tell a story that happened in the last hundred years or so, you’d better make sure that credible facts back it up. Of course, the story could have happened 500 years ago, but then earlier Gedolim could have remarked on it.

  • #620014

    amusedreader
    Participant

    I am assuming this won’t be posted because the last time I wrote this, it was not: IT IS TIME TO SHUT DOWN THIS ABOMINABLE COFFEE ROOM. There is nothing wrong with healthy civil debate but what occurs on this website borders on rishus. The namecalling and vitriol is unbecoming a website that purports to be Yeshivish!

  • #620015

    tzippi
    Member

    Oops. I see I didn’t respond to the original question. But I think a study of all the responses here may well answer the question of whether fargining is in someone’s nature or must be learned…

  • #620016

    cantoresq
    Member

    ”But something else occured to me last night. ‘

    I see this issue is really sitting on your mind sir. For someone who deems this a fairy tale, I must say you are quite occupied with it; Do you obsess with ‘Sleeping Beuty and Cindarella as well?

    The girl was fine till she was 17 years old and had ^plenty of oppertunity to envy

    others.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Oh no no no my friend. The decades long coma was central to this bubba maise. The clear message was that in light of her coma, she never experienced envy and therefore her body did not decompose after death. (BTW how did R. Kanievsky know this girl was never envious?) Don’t change the facts simply becuase they might now work against you.

  • #620017

    Think BIG
    Member

    I agree with anon, and more so, why do you feel it necessary to focus on the part that you don’t like, rather than on the moral of the story. You remind me of a child who, after you tell them an inspiring story with an inspiring message, asks a dumb question on a minor detail of the story. Or they ask, is it true? You missed the point!

    Except you are not a child- and missing the point, or trying to shift focus away from it is pretty sad.

  • #620018

    mosherose
    Member

    “So, if someone doesn’t believe that a girl sat in a coma for 73 years that makes her a kofer? Gee, I wasn’t aware that that was one of the ikkarei emunah.”

    No, you’re a koifer because of all the rotten things you write on your blog. You belittle the chachamim, you mock the torah and you pretend that you’re an erliche yid when, in reality, Sam Berger, you are a menuval and a koifer. The fact that you don’t believe the story when it told over by a reliable source is just confirms your kefirah.

  • #620020

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I must add a few lines to me posting about nissim geluim….In the bais hamikdosh, there were also nissim geluim (see chanukkah) but again, these are few and very far in bewteen. In the general sense, we live now in the “oilam hanistor”, until the geulah shleimah, and till then, the ways of the world are guided in a hidden manner.

  • #620021

    nameless
    Member

    cantoresque says;

    ‘(BTW how did R. Kanievsky know this girl was never envious?) Don’t change the facts simply becuase they might now work against you.’

    LOL! Sir, NOTHING you say can work against me , I think that should be obvious at this point. Btw Sir, I’m curious, the High Holidays are approaching, what type of Congregation would have an individual like you fill the ir position as Chazzan? I dont mean any disrespect sir, but do you think if they read your posts , (especially your last question regarding how R Kanievsky knew she was never jealous)they would BESTOW UPON YOU the honour of leading their congregants at the most sacred time of the year?

    Amusedreader,

    Please direct your anger at those who clearly belittle and mock Gedolim and their followers,

  • #620022

    Think BIG
    Member

    Mosherose, though I don’t agree with the wolf’s comments either, I don’t think it’s right to expose the real name behind the post. We are all (most of us) anonymous, and it just isn’t fair or ethical, and probably violates halachah to do so. Don’t repay a wrong with a wrong of your own. Does anyone agree with me?

    Cantoresq:

    I don’t know why I’m bothering to rubut your post (certainly not because i think I will succeed in changing your point of view, because i doubt anything anybody here says will be heard by you.) But maybe in case someone else on this public forum will be infected by your words, I will give a my point of view to consider.

    You ask why she deserved the fate she did if she never fargined anyone? As Nameless said, We are not G-d and we have no way of knowing his cheshbonos. She may have been a very high soul who came into this world for a specific purpose and this was the way to fulfill it. As to your question of why her body did not decompose for not being jealous if she anyways could not feel jealousy, so why was she rewarded for it?: I think that is an excellent and intelligent question.

    Again, as I said on the smoking blog, Yiddishkeit is not averse to questions, as long as they come from a sincere place and not from a knocking one. I don’t pretend to know the answer, and I can’t even say I believe the story without a doubt (Jews by nature are more sceptical than gullible) as unfortunately many stories make their rounds which turn out to be false or misconstrued. (But I still appreciate the message, regardless whether the story was true)

    However, I’d like to propose an answer to your question, just for the sake of learning. We have a precedent in the torah for Hashem rewarding someone for something even if they were not in the position to do otherwise.

    When Yaakov Avinu met up with his brother Eisav Harasha after many years, it says that all the shevatim bowed down to Eisav. Many years later, The first king of Yisroel was Shaul, who descended from Binyamin. The question is asked: why specifically from Binyamin ?(Yehuda was not going to receive it at first because the Hashem was not happy with how the request for king was made…See Shmuel Perek 10) One of the answers given is that since all the other shevatim bowed down to the rasha Eisav, except for Binyamin. Why not? BECAUSE HE WAS NOT YET BORN. Here we have another case where Hashem rewarded someone for something even though he was not in a position to do otherwise. How can we mortals try to Fathom Hashem’s Mind?

    Nameless, this one’s for you:

    You originally posted this story in an effort to raise awareness about jealousy. The whole thing got sidetracked because people would not take a message from a bogus (in their estimation) story.

    I give you a challenge I hope you’ll be able to acheive. I challenge you to contact the speaker (I’m sure it shouldn’t be too hard) and try to verify the story and its details. Then get back to us with your results. Deal?

  • #620023

    nameless
    Member

    Jos’

    Thanks, I’ll take you up on that offer in the near future!

  • #620024

    nameless
    Member

    Moshe rose,

    WHO IS SAM BERGER? I see no one on this blog with that name,,,,

  • #620025

    Think BIG
    Member

    To Rabbi of Berlin,

    I must say that I take my hat off to you for admitting AND apologizing for your negative words on this blog. KOL HAKAVOD TO YOU. That shows a sign of greatness (in my opinion), and it’s something we should ALL learn from. I have a newfound respect for you. I for one am moichel you for having insulted me (my way of life) but I only speak for myself.

    To be perfectly honest, though the two quotes I posted were comments made by you, the term “Sonei Yisroel” I did not see on the site, (I did not go back and read all your comments, just those two.) Rather, if you are the person i think you are, and you sure sound like it, it is a term I heard from your own mouth recently, along with “elitist”. If you do not live in mOnsey then I have the wrong person and I apologize for being Choshed biksherim. But that’s where that came from.

    Now I would like to comment on the rest of your post:

    You claim that emunas chachamim is a new consept , you imply -invented by the litvish people. I am not a talmid chacham, but I can think of one early commentator (pre-Lita) who wrote that when we look to our chachamim and listen to their words it is like someone in a garden maze looking to the guy in the middle for direction. The man in the middle has already completed the maze and from his high vantage point can see where you’re lost and can direct you. (see intro to mesilas yesharim, I may not have repeated it accurately, but its to the best of my recollection. The Ramchal is certainly great enough and enough accepted, I’m sure evn by you. Perhaps other people can bring other proofs.

    However, I am surprised at you, Rabbi of Berlin, Chassid at heart: The concept of Emunas Chachamim is very strong by chassidim, perhaps even stronger than by Litvaks. By chassidim the idea of following the Rebbes directive blindly is part and parcel of almost every story.

    Second,I agree it was out of line to call you a Koifer (though I suspect she was not the first one), and I agree that insulting someone is just an insult and never okay, but she didnt call you that because you don’t believe this story. Rather it was a general disbelief of many beliefs that form classic Jewish thought that get bandied about on this blog, which you and others have mocked.

    By bringing in the split in Satmar and other camps, you display ignorance about the concept of emunas Chachamim. A chacham is a Gadol of Klal Yisroel who guide us in every area in life. When he exhorts us to do Teshuva in a certain area, we trust he is a messenger from Hashem, as cose as we can get to Nevua today, which is not existant today. Also, we can apply kenei l’cha Rav, where we ask Daas Torah from a wise and Knowledgeable Torah Scholar to direct us, and then we follow his advise, even though it sometimes doent make 100% sense to us. Chassidic tales (fairy tales too?)are replete with cases in which the Rebbe said or did something incomprehensible, but the one who trusted gained in the end.

    you write, ” And, additonally, pray tell me, do I have to believe in Rav Kaniesky’s every word? In other words, are R’Chaim kanievsky’s words infallible?”

    No, you don’t have to. Hopefully, you have your own Tzaddik that you follow. However, those that hold Rav Kanieveski to be the gadol Hador do believe every word he says. Yes, he is fallable, but his “fallacies” would be my mitzvos. As Chazal say, “Yiftach bedoro keShmuel bedoro”

    The words of Rav Kook are to the Mizrachim as the words of the Lubavitcher Rebbe are to the Lubavitchers as the words of the Satmar rebbe are to the satmars. No Layman should put down a spiritual leader in front of ones followers, ever. If a Gadol says that the shita of the other “Rebbe” is wrong, I can not fully understand that, but I trust it is Lesheim shamayim. all of the Besh”t’s talmidim who eventually became Rebbes had different tracks in avodas hashem which conflicted with the other.

    I agree wholeheartedly that open nissim do not generally happen today. everything is cloaked in teva. But cannot this story be explained by Teva too? It is not SO unusual to find weird quirks of nature. Several years ago I heard on the (secular) radio about a woman somewhere in England I think who had a baby aborted. She felt unwell and the doctors discovered a dead fetus. The fetus was in her womb for 35 years. The lady was over 70 years old. weird. Do I believe it? I dont know. But there are enough weird happeneings in the GUNISS BOOK to prove it.

    I will respond to the rest of your post soon cuz i have to go now.

  • #620026

    Will Hill
    Member

    mosherose, Is Wolfish Mr. Berger?

  • #620027

    favish
    Member

    to amued reader page..4 very easy way to shut down this coffee room l’gabay your problem, just dont log on to it and ‘puff’ the problem is solved…oi, mir wish we can solve our problems so simply…

  • #620028

    Think BIG
    Member

    Rabbi of Berlin, to continue my comments on your letter:

    Whether Rabbi Kanievski Shli”ta related the story or just commented on the story is really immaterial. If he commented on it, desn’t it imply that he believed it? (again, IF he in fact commented on it,as I have said before, it is an unfortunate fact that people misquote Gedolim and sometimes make up stories about them) But if we asssume he did comment on it, it follows that he believed the story from a reliable source, in which case I believe it too, since I don’t consider myself more saavy than him. But if you don’t hold Rav Kanievski to that esteem, that is your perogative.

    The next part in which you explain the nes nistar versus galui is exactly what I wrote in my previous text, so we are on the same page about that. So, in effect, you believe this “fairy tale” COULD have happened because it is after all possible, though very improbable. I couldn’t agree more. The only reason why I tend to give just a bit more credence to it is because it was said over in the name of Rav Kanievski, and it can be verified. In fact in a previous post I challenged Nameless, on behalf of all of us here in the coffee room, to research the story. Now that she sent us on this wild ride, she owes it to us to make up for it by backing up her story with the facts.

    You asked me if I believe in all the chassidishe mayselach: I have two answers:

    1. Chassidim themselves will tell you that many of their stories are made up/exagerated, etc, or they are not clear who it actually happened to. Since storytelling was a major focus by the early chassidim, its hard to know for sure what is true and what isn’t. So, I enjoy the stories and try to learn from them what I could, but I usually take them with a grain of salt, especially if they sound too fanciful. (I know someone who feels that telling children a chassidish meysah is worse than telling them snow white and the seven dwarfs, because you are teaching them sheker cloaked in emes, whereas with snow white, the children can clearly see it is a fairy tale. But that is just one persons view)

    2. As far as I understand, the point of a story is for the lesson it teaches. That’s why the source, details, who it happened to,etc. are really secondary to the point. (Of course, if you have a penchant for only telling over 100% true stories you might want to stay away from stories that are not verifiable.) So if I heard a beautiful story but cannot remember or verify the details, I may repeat it. Though personally, I do like to stick to stories I know to be true.

    As far as my emuna stopping at R’ Kanievski, I have often thought of an interesting phenomenon which is that on average, chassidish stories usually involve a “nes”, which you need to believe. Non- chassidic stories about Litvish-style gedolim usually involve a point of midos or emuna that we could learn from. I prefer the latter.

    To end, there is a famous story with one of the Brisker Gedolim, which I won’t repeat bec dont know all the details, but the basic point was that he told his talmidim not to be impressed with “mofsim”. Mofsim anyone can do, and he proceeded to do one right then and there. He told them, that is not what should impress you. Serving Hashem, learning Torah is the ikar.

    Have a great night.

  • #620029

    kapusta
    Participant

    i dont think i’ve ever seen a “conversation” which is so off topic being discussed, if u want to, believe it, if not not but y am i interested its ur life, and its ur business, the original topic was about being able to fargin which obviously (i totally agree with tzippi on this) is something that needs to be worked on, the topic was a good one and i might add a much better one and more important than the so called “issue” being discussed here.

    P.S. i’m wondering if a topic should be started about how people can comment about night when the issue is day…

  • #620030

    nameless
    Member

    Think Big,

    I would love to do it, and I will try my best because the speaker left to Israel about a week ago and I dont have her contact number.

    However, if you like you can leave your email with YW editor and I will have them pass over any details when I get them. I REFUSE WHOLEHEARTEDLY to post them on this blog, because I will not submit to people who will probably deny the story no matter how reliable the evidence might be!

    You can take the information I plan to get and do wh

  • #620031

    nameless
    Member

    You can take the information I hope to get and do what you want with it.

  • #620032

    nameless
    Member

    Think Big says;

    ‘Now that she sent us on this wild ride, she owes it to us to make up for it by backing up her story with the facts.’

    I just noticed that comment now, I dont think I ‘owe’ ANYONE an iota more than another blogger who gives an opinion, or shares an experience with us whatever the case.

    ‘Wild ride’???

    Frankly I dont wish you anything worst. As KAPUSTA said, the base of this topic was the issue of jealousy, The only ones who started this roller coaster ride

    were those who doubt in general and the ones who are skeptical on other blogs as well.

    I think I already established that the absence of this event in the GB OF RECORDS, is certainly not a prOof that it didnt happen.

    The Chazzan blatantly doubts that Tzddikim do not remain in

    tact, when we know for a fact thats not the case.

    Maybe you should challenge THEM to prove their Emunahs Chachomim in general!

    Please dont pick on the Believer!

  • #620033

    cantoresq
    Member

    Think big writes:

    Cantoresq:

    I don’t know why I’m bothering to rubut your post (certainly not because i think I will succeed in changing your point of view, because i doubt anything anybody here says will be heard by you.) But maybe in case someone else on this public forum will be infected by your words, I will give a my point of view to consider.

    You ask why she deserved the fate she did if she never fargined anyone? As Nameless said, We are not G-d and we have no way of knowing his cheshbonos.

    I RESPOND:

    Indeed we are not G-d and cannot fully understand His ways. But I’m sure if anyone ever asked him, R. Chaim Kanievsky would say the same about himself. Since we can’t presume to know G-d’s ways, I am against stories such as the one under discussion. They reduce the level of contemplation of the Divine to child’s play. Such drivel may have a pedagogic value when teaching seven and eight year olds, but they have no place in adult religious introspection.

    This Big continues:

    She may have been a very high soul who came into this world for a specific purpose and this was the way to fulfill it.

    I Responde:

    But we have no way of knowing that do we?

    TB CONT.

    As to your question of why her body did not decompose for not being jealous if she anyways could not feel jealousy, so why was she rewarded for it?: I think that is an excellent and intelligent question.

    Again, as I said on the smoking blog, Yiddishkeit is not averse to questions, as long as they come from a sincere place and not from a knocking one. I don’t pretend to know the answer, and I can’t even say I believe the story without a doubt (Jews by nature are more sceptical than gullible) as unfortunately many stories make their rounds which turn out to be false or misconstrued. (But I still appreciate the message, regardless whether the story was true)

    However, I’d like to propose an answer to your question, just for the sake of learning. We have a precedent in the torah for Hashem rewarding someone for something even if they were not in the position to do otherwise.

    When Yaakov Avinu met up with his brother Eisav Harasha after many years, it says that all the shevatim bowed down to Eisav. Many years later, The first king of Yisroel was Shaul, who descended from Binyamin. The question is asked: why specifically from Binyamin ?(Yehuda was not going to receive it at first because the Hashem was not happy with how the request for king was made…See Shmuel Perek 10) One of the answers given is that since all the other shevatim bowed down to the rasha Eisav, except for Binyamin. Why not? BECAUSE HE WAS NOT YET BORN. Here we have another case where Hashem rewarded someone for something even though he was not in a position to do otherwise. How can we mortals try to Fathom Hashem’s Mind?

    I Respond:

    Forgive me, but it’s one thing when chazal make that point, and quite another when a rebbetzin does so. But your answer does address an interesting theololgical difficulty; the flip side of theodicy, [seemingly] capricious Divine grace.

  • #620035

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Well, Think Big, you wrote two long answers to my posting. Thank you for your compliments but I must tell you that ,great, I am absolutely not. I do, however, feel, that civility in a debate is a must. The greatest zaddikim were always civil to everyone. R’Moshe Feinstein zz’l (to choose a litvishe godol) NEVER said a bad word about anyone. Check his teshuvos. Even when he excoriates other so-called “movements”, he couches it in moderate terms. My own rebbe,zol gezund zein, never says a bad word about people who do not go in the same ‘derech”. For example, I suspect he is not exactly a Zionist,as I may be(see other discussions),but I have never heard him say anything negative ,in a political sense, about the tzionim. So, let us heed the mmamar”divrei chachomim benachas nishmoim”.

    As far as the comments you mentioned, if you “heard’ these words from me , then I know the occasion when it happened. I truly am pained about the words ‘sonei yisroel”. That one gives me palpitations because it was a throw-away line and I should never,never have used it. Al zeh, ani bochioh. The other term (elitist) we can argue about, but I will not use it again.

    Concerning stories of all kind and the chassidische maasses,you are absolutley correct in saying that any story CAN happen,including the story of the coma.You may be familiar with the saying that anyone who believes that all the rebbeshe maasses actually happened is a “tipesh”. BUT anyone who says that they CANNOT happen, is an “apikorus”. In other words, the potential of a nes is always there, but it does not mean that it happens all the time. Hence, I do believe that Rav Kanievsky shelita said what he said about the non-decomposed state of the body, because that you can easily check if true or not. However, the story about the long coma has to be verified before accepting it. If it is verified, absolutely, I will believe it.

    By the way, I can attest that I actually know of a coma of 35 years in my own community. On that, I can give chapter,name and verse. So, long comas can happen.

    Well, I do have a day job to which I have to attend, so for now, I’ll have to postpone the discussion about emunas chachomim for another time.

    Incidentally, if you live in Lakewood ( I think), then we are familiar with each other. A kleine velt.

  • #620036

    guesswho
    Member

    It is too bad that we do not know who cared for this lady for 70 years. The Golubcheks would have transferred their father, instead of keeping in a hospital where all the doctors wanted to kill him. It is amazing that they had technology to keep her alive so many years ago. Please publicize the facts to help future patients.

    It is a known fact that R’ Chayim is frequently misquoted. However, he answers his ‘snail’ mail. So write and ask him if he ever heard such a story. He definitely did not read it on line…. It is not apikorsus to believe that gedolim are often misquoted. It may be apikorsus to believe everything that is said in their name.

  • #620037

    Think BIG
    Member

    nameless, Im so sorry you took offense. my line about the wild goose chase was said toungue in cheek and i did not mean anything personal by it at all. And you’re right that those that decided to proclaim that the story was false went off target. Perhaps we should all be more careful that when we quote someone or something we should be able to give clear verification. I myself have been guilty of quoting things without remembering the source exactly.

    Also, i cannot give you my email address bec. believe it or not, I dont own a computer. i am on vacation now where I have lots of time and access and will be leaving the scene shortly.

    So, if you can verify the story for everyone else good. if not, forget it.

  • #620038

    Think BIG
    Member

    Sorry Rabbi of Berlin, I don’t live in Lakewood. perhaps you are remembering a different conversation. Or you think i’m someone else because there were several people in the room when the conversation took place. But yes, a kleina velt. your “Rabbi of Berlin ” gives you away though.

  • #620039

    Will Hill
    Member

    Nu Think BIG, Spill your beans! Which Berliner do you think he is? (You mentioned something about Monsey…)

    Also, people are waiting for your teretz in the MITZVAH TANTZ thread Think BIG.

  • #620040

    mosherose
    Member

    “mosherose, Is Wolfish Mr. Berger?”

    Yes. Sam Berger is the author of WolfishMusings.

  • #620041

    Think BIG
    Member

    Will Hill:

    I do not intend to spill the beans on Berlin. If he wants to stay anonymous, that is his perogative. In fact I regret mentioning that i know him, and i hope he is not angry at me for it. (i mentioned somewhere else to mosherose that i think it unethical to expose the name of any poster if he wishes to remain anonymous)

    I answered on the mitzva tanz thread.

    Rabbi of Berlin: I dont know if you are upset with me that I quoted you saying something in person, when this is a public blog. If You are, I am really sorry. in any case, i must ask you for mechila. I was not fair. I had assumed that it was a term you used alot, together with elitist, (because it sounded like that to me) and i did not want to go searching for an actual quote where you wrote it. But obviously it is not, since as you say it gives you heart palpitations that you said it, and you were able to zero in on the conversation (you think). Please be moichel me. If you want me to call you, i will.

  • #620042

    nameless
    Member

    Think Big,

    No prob’, I’ll try my best.

    Now can we please go back to the original topic?

  • #620043

    favish
    Member

    to those who dont believe in the concept of body persavation for those who merit it see dvorim 34..pasik 7 rashi ‘v’lo nos leicho’ shelo sholta bo rikvon’..we already mentioned’ in ‘sepiray chasidim’ by hurav zevin z’l brings few stories about such..have a close freind who was told by his close relative that he accompanied the holy ‘igros moshe’ body to e’y and was there at the ‘baerdigung’ and told him (to my friend) that heilige guf was as fresh as b’shass petire, in other words didnt have any simonim of rikvon hagif one usually has after a few days .(that person is oisek in these things)

  • #620044

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    think big, Thanks for your observation.I only said that statement once in my life and, indeed, there were a few other people present. Will hill, do you live in monsey? it s a big place….though….

  • #620045

    nameless
    Member

    The Nazis wanted to dxacavate the body of Rebbe Reb Elimelech, and his body too was in tact, they say it was EVEN a little moist, still from the Tahara…

  • #620046

    Think BIG
    Member

    Rabbi of berlin, you didnt answer, are you moichel me?

  • #620047

    Think BIG
    Member

    Nameless, i think you may have to start a new thread if you want to talk about farginning and jealousy. This thread evolved into “do we believe in “supernatural” stories.(the expensive vacations thread is getting into that a little. Maybe take the discussiomn there)

  • #620048

    Will Hill
    Member

    rabbi: I used to live there. You still live there?

    Think BIG,: I notice you quoted rabbiofberlin from comments he made months ago on this site. You googled them or how did you find all those juicy tidbits?

  • #620049

    amusedreader
    Participant

    jent1150 forgive me for not responding to your comment earlier but I do not spend 24/7 reading and writing in the coffee room. It is my intention to limit my reading of the comments written with the intention of stopping. But that doesn’t “poof solve the problem” as you so put it. The problem is the “miyusdike” rhetoric that is bandied about and will continue to be bandied about whether I read it or not. The fact that members of klal yosroel can behave in such a disrespectful manner to their fellow jew is very distressing and is preventing the coming of Moshiach for ALL of klal yisroel, not just those individuals who read and write this trash.

  • #620050

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    to think BIG…no need for mechillah, and if you want it, mochul lecho, mochul lecho,mochul lechu. This is an anonymous website and it is a fluke that you realized who I am. Nothing wrong in that, as I am pretty open about my shittos on Eretz ysroel, (less)chumros, emunas chachomim in modern times, so no need for hiding. Actually, I truly must thank YOU for bringing up the matter of name-calling. As I said in an earlier post, I truly am beating myself up for the term “sonei yisroel”. THis is and will always be an impardonable offense. EVERY good Yid is an oihev yisroel. Satmar – to whose philosophy I do not suscribe- has the most wonderful bikur cholim in the world. I have heard from many non-frum people how this has impressed them and helped them. Chabad- whom I like but is under attack by others- does unbelievable things throughout the world. The hesder yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel – regardless whether you suscirbe to zionism or not – have been at the forefront of defending Klal Yisroel with their bodies and sometimes- sadly- with their lifes.

    So, I accept everyone, from so-called far-right to moderate left. The only people I will reject are the ones who are “noisen jad’ to our enemies, whether from the right (thank G-d, few) to the left, people who will bend over to accomodate our enemies. Everyone else, I welcome with open arms.Incidentally, that approach I have learned from such disparate people as my chassidische rebbe, who welcomes everyone to our shul, to the great R’Shlomo Carlebach, who was the oihev ysroel par excellence, if sometimes to excess, to the legendary Rav Grossman of Migdal Haemek, a true zaddik in our time. And, ultimately, this is our dor’s duty- to open our hearts to all. The great baal teshuvah movement in recent times is fully based on that concept and, boruch hashem, I think we are winning.

  • #620051

    Think BIG
    Member

    Will Hill, you sure are nosy! Let me tell you one thing about Rabbi of Berlin:

    He happens to have some very outstanding, yeshivish (litvish style) children, including one metzuyan who is in Shidduchim. Would you believe that?

  • #620052

    ujm
    Member

    rabbiofberlin,

    What kind of Rabbi are you? Pulpit? Or did you just use the title as a nice screen name??

    Also, r u from the TIDE school of thought (as in kaj)? Is that what the Berlin (i.e. Yekkish) signifies?

  • #620053

    Joseph
    Member

    rabbiofberlin: What is your son looking for? Maybe we can “chip in” this gevaldike inyan.

  • #620054

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    ujm, in brief, I am not from the TIDE school of thought ( I have no idea what TIDE means)and neither am I a member, old or new, of Kehillat Jeshurun. My own view on things is rather eclectic,chassidisch yet pro-zionist, yeshivish yet opposed to universal kollel, deeply understanding of mesoirah yet an ardent lover of Shlomo Carlebach…you see the picture…I did have a pulpit in Berlin some years ago. Hope this satisfies your curiosity.

    Think Big, you make me blush, but thank you. My sons are truly metzuyonim and, regardless of my views, I am absolutely their proudest father.(My oldest is in Mir for six years now and, if G-d wills it, a future moreh beyisroel-but don’t tell him that!)

    Incidentally, they both wear “gartlech” in honor of my father who gave it to them.My father, alov hashalom, was a big chossid and gave them these gartlech.

  • #620055

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    OY, Hakodesh Boruch hu is great! All of a sudden,Joseph and I are best friends ! well,not quite but if you know of a wonderful mishpacha and a wonderful girl ,with jechoilos, let me know! In all seriousness, this particular boy that think big mentioned is an outstansding masmid and a baal chessed. When I asked him, why does he want to learn, he said: because he sees hatzlacha in his learning and hence, he wants to continue. Who am I to deny him this right?

    well, in this week of tisha be-av, maybe the geulah is indeed closer if we can all come closer!

  • #620056

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    RabbiofBerlin, my kids also look chareidi, with a hat, etc. if you could believe it.

    On the topic of Reb Shlomo ZT”L, he once wanted to get a law passed in the Knesset that everybody in the enitre country is required to dance 3 times a day.

  • #620057

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Pashute yid, you brought a big smile to my lips and real tears to my eyes. What a wonderful story! Shlomo zz’l was the real oihev yisroel par excellence. We miss his music, we miss his energy and we miss his Ahavas Yisroel. Yes, I know, soon this column will be populated by his detractors, but, before you write a line , look closely in the mirror and ask yourself if you ever brought back a yiddishe neshomo to its roots. And if you said yes to one or even ten such neshomos, remember that Shlomo z”l brought thousands of neshomos back to their roots. I cna be “mayid” personally to dozens of such people who today are part of oru Klal yisroel and are makpid on every mitzvah. Shlomo z’l still sings for us and his music is eternal.

  • #620058

    Joseph
    Member

    “OY, Hakodesh Boruch hu is great! All of a sudden,Joseph and I are best friends ! well,not quite…”

    I say, why not? quite so!

  • #620059

    Think BIG
    Member

    Wow! Moshiach must really be approaching!

  • #620060

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    well, joseph, then i reach across the political divide and embrace you,. THink BIg I already have ties with and so…vejaasu kulom agudah echos! maybe indeed the geulah will come out of ahavas yisroel!

  • #620061

    Think BIG
    Member

    Rabbosai, we have an interesting phenomenon here being proven on this website: that the zionist “ideal” is fading away. Here we have two of klal Yisroel’s two biggest defenders of Zionism (Poshut and Rabbiof Berlin), and their children have returned to the “fold” despite their fathers strongly held beliefs! What more can we say?

  • #620062

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    oy, I was going to close my computer but I saw think big’s remarks about pashute and myself. “Ma inyan shemittah eitzel har sinai?” I, too,was on the same wavelength as my own children when I was young till I grew up and saw the emess! Seriously though, I have written amply on another posting that I believe everyone who lives in Eretz yisroel today is a Zionist. So, you may say that the idea of “secular Zionism” is fading and in that, I join hands with you but frum Zionism? On the contrary, it goes “mechoil el choil”

  • #620063

    Think BIG
    Member

    The connection is as follows: One of the arguments made as to the how we prove that Zionism is sheker, is by showing that it didn’t last.* Many “isms” have been made popular in their time, then slowly faded away (Communism, socialism to name a few)

    Zionism also, is in its dying stages as we see the real Zionists are all around your age, rabbi, and have not succeeded in passing it on to the next generation. Many, many of the Zionists at the forefont of the action at the time have children or grandchildren now living in chutz la’Aretz. So that’s why I find it amusing, for lack of better word, to find on this website, that the two most ardent supporters of Zionism on this site have Chareidi children. Is the connection clear now?

    Also, may I add, when you were your children’s ages the State was still fairly new and it was hard to see that the zionist ideal would eventually decline. You and I know that your yeshivishe sons and son-in-law are NOT going to “see the Emes”, (as you put it) and embrace the Zionist ideology.

    When we talk about Zionists, we do NOT refer to everyone who lives in Eretz Yisroel! (i don’t know anyone who uses such a definition!) I myself have lived there several years and would never consider myself a Zionist. A “Zionist” in todays world refers to a person who believes that the State of Israel is a valid institution as far as thier beliefs go (as you do). In other words, that we Jews had the right and obligation to take Eretz Yisroel by force, and for some, that that mitzva is the raison d’etre. That is a Zionist. I believe it is not valid, you believe it is.

    Just answer this, does your sone who lives in Eretz Yisroel consider himself a Zionist??

    *You alone have made this argument in regards to chassidim still being around and flourishing.

  • #620064

    Think BIG
    Member

    There is a very nice vort I would like to share regarding the “ism” topic I mentioned before. Rabbi, I think even you would like it.

    I heard it on a tape by Rabbi Uziel Milevski, z”l, director of arachim or gateways, dont remember which…on the topic of MESSIANISM.

    He said that there is a possuk that ends “…venashuva el Hashem” , referring to the ultimate redemption. Then there’s an identical possuk that ends”…venashuva ad la’Hashem” (sorry I cannot give you exact possuk, for those who care to know chapter and verse. Maybe someone can help me out?) What’s the difference between el(to) and ad(until)? “Ad” means we will return until Hashem, up to Hashem, but not quite there. “El” means we are there.

    He said that as we are getting close to the Messianic era, there is a great and powerful spiritual energy and desire of all peoples of the world to try to find utopia. Therefor, in an attempt to create the perfect society, over the last century, many “isms” have erupted. The people who embraced communism and socialism truly felt that that society would be the end of all our problems. Obviously history has proven that they are dismal failures. Zionism was also one such attempt for a better society. More recently, people have devised of “Humanism” toward the same end.

    But all of these “isms” have a purpose. They are “venashuva AD laHashem”. By having people focus on trying to improve the world, though their ideas are false, they are bringing the world closer to the only true “ism” which is Messianism”-ie, living a life that is in sync with Hashem’s desire for us to live in the world of the Final Redemption. That is “venashuva el Hashem”.

  • #620065

    cantoresq
    Member

    Think BIG, I think you’re wrong about Zionism. It’s alive and well and thriving, despite all the problems that abide in Israel. But, assuming arguendo, you’re correct? Why are so so happy about being right in this instance? The logical conclusion of your thesis is the end of the State of Israel. Given the likely successor state, an Arab state of some sort, over what is there to rejoice? Do you think for a minute thet any Arab government will allow for such a large jewish contingent? Do you really think chareidim would be allowed to proliferate as they currently do in Israel? What do you think the taxes might be on Dhimmi yeshivot and schuls? (historically Jews paid huege taxes, more than Christians ahd to pay to Muslim rulers in order to perate their religious institutions) How easy do you think it would be for you, or any other American to travel to Israel to the Kotel (hint Saudi Arabia doesn’t allow Jews to enter the country PERIOD)? Remember all those graves on Har HaZeitim? I hope you would remember them, because they would be obliterated. All you would have is your memories.

    I am an ardent Zionist. But I recognize that the Zionist enterprise has had a profound impact on the Jewish mentality; Those of us who grew up with a strong mighty and feared Medinat Yisrael, don’t really know what galut means. After all we had the chayal and the chalutz to admire, as opposed to weak and cowering ghetto Jew of yore. I further posit that even those who never sbscribed to Zionist ideal still never fully experienced galut in light of the advent of the Medinah. If you’re right about Zionism being moribund, then we all better get used to the old, more profound all encompassing galut. So tell me again why are you do G-d damned smug?

  • #620066

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Think bIG, Thanks for the very wonderful vort. there is a tremedous amount of truth in that vort!

  • #620067

    Think BIG
    Member

    actually, no, cantoresq. The logical conclusion to my thesis is that those who “believe” in Zionism come to recognise that It was “Kochi veotzim Yadi” and that it actually was not the answer to our “jewish dillema”. The answer to our long and bitter Galus will only come with the coming of Moshiach Tzidkeinu, and the rebuilding of the Bais Hamikdash. Zionism attempted to “fix” the problem, causing many new ones in its wake. You cannot force the geulah through power, but through prayer and adherence to the Torah. Zionism succeeded in pulling many of our people away from Torah. Zionism was distraction for many who unfortunately ceased their yearning and pleading for the true geulah.

    You are mistaken, cantoresq. I am not “happy” about being right. I am sad about the damage the Zionist propaganda has wrought, and I am sad that people like you cannot see it even now when it has become so obvious how Zionism has deluded the jewish people.

    If you have been following the conversation, you would realize that nobody was suggesting that now, after the fact, we think we would be better off if Eretz Yisroel reverted back to Arab hands. We debated the issue and clarified that it was a result of the advent of zionism that the arab world looks like it does today.

    you write, “Those of us who grew up with a strong mighty and feared Medinat Yisrael, don’t really know what galut means. After all we had the chayal and the chalutz to admire, as opposed to weak and cowering ghetto Jew of yore.” That, cantoresq is precisely where the problem lies. The zionists succeeded in glorifying the mighty chalutz who has abandoned yiddishkeit, and to denigrate the “weak and cowering ghetto jew” who was actually a giant of spirit, a soldier of the greatest army of Hashem, who was willing to be moser nefesh for his yiddishkeit.

    The rest of your paragraph proves what I began with, that Zionism attempted to show that if we have a state, we are not truly in galus anymore. It pains me that you think me/us smug. In fact it is sadness, mixed with a strong attempt at upholding Torah -true yiddishkeit in the face of blatant disregard of all that is holy.

  • #620068

    cantoresq
    Member

    Think big, I’m not interested in your polemic. Moreover, if you want to blame other Jews for anti-Semitism (which is the canard employed by the amti-Semites) feel free to do so. Personally, I look at myself as a Jew in a more favorable light. But I gues we all see different things when we (colectively) look in the mirror. You see Jews as the cause of their misfortune, I see Jews overcoming their misfortune and thriving despite it. And BTW, did you ever bother to consider what might have been had the Torah world followed Rav Kook’s lead? Of course we can never know. Sadder yet we’ll never have the opportunity to find out.

    But let’s get down to tachlis. On a practicle level, please consider the consequences of you’re being right about zionism being moribund. If you don’t like those all too obvious consequences what are YOU (I mean you in the collective sense) prepared to do abnout it. And Please spare me some saccharine platitude about faith in the HKB”H. G-d does not expect us to sit on the sideliens as spectators in His game of life. We are the players He put on earth. Moreover, such sanguine protestations of faith didn’t stop the bullet from peircing R. Elchanan Wasserman’s head. Nor did they stop the Satmer Rav from saving his skin with the help of a Zionist. The extreme’s of R. Elchanan Wasserman’s faith led to his unnecessary death, and those of his disciples, while that of the Satmer Rav led to his ultimate hypocrisy.

  • #620069

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Is there any purpose to a posting that tries to mediate between Think BIG and cantoresq? Maybe not, but I’ll try.

    Cantoresq, I hope to be as ardent a Zionist as you and I have said publicly (check my posts)that the chareidim are wrong in not taking a larger part in the medinah (BTW, chareidm were chalutzim too and worked the earth as the others. Not today ,sadly, but then no one does anymore) and I do feel that they are absolutely wrong in not joining the army,although it seems to be that changes may be in the air now.

    I do take exception to your description of the “weak and cowering ghetto jew of yore”. It is a diservice to generations of jews who continued to keep the flame of yiddishkeit alive through the most difficult times of our history. Jews wer not the only ones who -as you say- ‘cowered” in the face of greater might. Check your history. Until the 19th century, few countries were independent and most people “cowered’ before the mightier armies. I prefer to honor the memories of my forefathers who lived and labored valiantly under very difficult circumstances.

    Think BIG, I am not going to repeat the debate we had over the past days, but here again,I will take exception to by your first paragraph.”chochi veoitzem jodi’ there might have been, but there also was a real attempt at fusing the Zionist ideals with Torah. And as to your assertion that ‘the long and bitter galus will come to an end with Moshiach Zitkeinu”, The gemoro (shmuel,rabbi akiva,etc) and the Rambam seem to indicate that it is in our hands to start the geulah.And this is the basis upon which Rav Kook zz’l based his whole approahc to Eretz Yisroel. (btw, he was a talmid of Volozhin)

  • #620070

    cantoresq
    Member

    If you have been following the conversation, you would realize that nobody was suggesting that now, after the fact, we think we would be better off if Eretz Yisroel reverted back to Arab hands. We debated the issue and clarified that it was a result of the advent of zionism that the arab world looks like it does today.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    I see, so Zionism is responsible for compelte lack of religious freedom in every Muslim country except Turkey? Zionism is responsible for the suppression of ethnic minorities throughout the Arab world? Zionism is responsible for the supression of women, including genital mutilation, found throughout the Arab world? Zionism created the Taliban? Give me a break.

  • #620071

    cantoresq
    Member

    Herr Oberrabinner: My reference to the “ghetto Jew of yore” was not to disparage. Rather to draw an image and a contrast; nothing more.

  • #620072

    Joseph
    Member

    cantoresq,

    You aren’t interested because you fear the truth you have heard. You are naive for denying that sometimes anti-semitism IS caused by certain actions committed by certain Jews.

    To finish your foolish sentence lets change the person:

    “Moreover, such sanguine protestations of faith didn’t stop the” Romans from piercing the taneh Rabbe Akiva’s body. “The extreme’s of” Rabbe Akiva’s “faith led to his unnecessary death.”

    to help you understand what extreme foolishness you said.

    __________________________________

    Who cares if the Muslims suppress their own women, commit mutilation, have a Taliban, etc. This is their internal problems. What we have to worry about is how they act to us, not within their own. How they act to Jews today IS a result of the crimes the zionists committed.

  • #620073

    Think BIG
    Member

    cantoresq: To tell you the truth, I am tired. Tired in general and tired debating such a topic when the two of us have such diametrically opposing views in areas such as Emunah, hishtadlus, emunas chachamim, hashgacha pratis etc, (as I can see from your two posts and many others on this site.) And I feel like I’m simply wasting my time with this, because if we can’t agree on the ground-rules, so to speak, how can we build above it?

    Your post is just so, so full of problematic statements, that I wouldn’t even know where to start. But, as you put it, you’re not interested in my “polemic”, so I will spare you my rebuttal.

    If you ever come to a point where you feel you are ready to open your mind a bit to try to understand the “chareidi” point of view, (and you calm down a bit from your anger) I am sure you will know where to go to get your information. So for now and until then, I wish you all the best of luck in all your endeavors.

    Rabbi of berlin: Ditto to you. As I have been saying all along, My view is based on the view of the gedolei torah, who show us how to view all aspects of life… But since we don’t agree on that…there is very little else to say on the subject, as far as i’m concerned.

  • #620074

    cantoresq
    Member

    Joseph

    Member

    cantoresq,

    You aren’t interested because you fear the truth you have heard. You are naive for denying that sometimes anti-semitism IS caused by certain actions committed by certain Jews.

    To finish your foolish sentence lets change the person:

    “Moreover, such sanguine protestations of faith didn’t stop the” Romans from piercing the taneh Rabbe Akiva’s body. “The extreme’s of” Rabbe Akiva’s “faith led to his unnecessary death.”

    to help you understand what extreme foolishness you said.

    __________________________________

    Who cares if the Muslims suppress their own women, commit mutilation, have a Taliban, etc. This is their internal problems. What we have to worry about is how they act to us, not within their own. How they act to Jews today IS a result of the crimes the zionists committed.


    R E P L Y

    Oh Joseph I’m very aware that Jews sometimes cause anti-Semitism. I live in Monsey and I see it all the time. And your attempt to substitute R. akiva with R. Elchanan Wasserman in my statements is wrong on two accounts. First of all, R. Akiva was very much in facvor of armed revolt against the Romans. He supported the Bar Kokhba rebellion, calling him the Mashiach. R. Elchanan choose martyrdom and did not resist it at all. Secondly, as opposed to R. Akiva, R. Elchanan Wasserman had opportunities to escape Europe and chose not to, preferring to die a martyr than emmigrate to America, which he considered treif. That was his choice, but he went further and advised others to choose the same fate. I will never be able to understand and thereby condone how he could ever have told people to die rather than live. I know of no historical reference that R. Akiva ever acted similarly.

  • #620075

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    think big, actually, your posting made me chuckle. You seem to lump me together with cantoresq in one big anti-chareidi mass. Forgive me if I am wrong about this. I am kind of disappointed in that because I love chassidim -who are certainly charedim. I have learned in chareidi yeshivos and, as you wrote, have two sons who may be considered in the chareidi camp. So, I fully and absolutely understand the chareidi position(and yes, I have learned the vaoyel moshe too).

    Our disagreement is about which way is the truth- no- let me rephrase this- which way is more applicable today, because I don’t want to imply that the chareidi/agudah way is “wrong”. And in this, I squarely follow the Gedolim ,and there are many of them, who take a much more sanguine view of Eretz yisroel and our attachment to the medinah.

    The reason why I do not suscribe to an uncritical acceptance of a specific Godol’s word is because I just don’t believe that gedolim are infallible, and especially when there are other divergent views.

    Well, maybe now we have truly exhausted our discussion on this and only the future will tell.

  • #620077

    Think BIG
    Member

    Rabbi, i’m sorry you took offense. I did not intend to lump you together with Cantoresq in that you are in the same category, but I wrote ditto to you because what I answered him applies to you too. Namely, that our hashkafos do not run along the same line, so therfore there is little we can debate in the zionism issue. Once again, for the last time, I hope, our hashkafa is what we’ve been taught by our gedolim. If you disagree with that view, you are disagreeing with the gedolim (despite the fact that you want to claim that the gedolim don’t really hold by what we say they do. i say, the proof is in the pudding, look at their followers, and you’ll see what their beliefs are.)

    You write:

    “Our disagreement is about which way is the truth- no- let me rephrase this- which way is more applicable today, because I don’t want to imply that the chareidi/agudah way is “wrong”.” Rabbi, To me, what’s applicable is what our gedolim teach. What is applicable is to keep our eyes on the goal, which is to me mekadesh Shem Shomayim, to do all we can to bring the geulah. By investing in a “medinah” which tries to take us out of that, which tries to claim that this is the geulah…that is not going to bring us to our goal.

    As I said, I’m really tired of this discussion, and I see all the other posters are smarter than me. They all abandoned this blog when they realized the futility of this, and only I (and joseph) remained to fight it out. I do think you try to open your mind to hear–for this I give you credit. But as i see it, what needed to be said was said on both sides, and at this point we are all just wasting our time. So, I wish you the very best, and we will iy”h meet again on other happy occasions.

  • #620078

    cantoresq
    Member

    Think BIG

    Member

    Rabbi, i’m sorry you took offense. I did not intend to lump you together with Cantoresq

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    In certain cirlces being lumped together me with would be thought to be a good thing.

  • #620079

    ujm
    Member

    cantor, that must be a rare case indeed.

  • #620080

    Think BIG
    Member

    cantoresq, I’m sorry to you too that you took offense. Read rabbi’s post to see in what context he said it and in that context I replied.

    ujm: you seem to have a knack for saying really insulting comments. It is not becoming of you.

  • #620081

    cantoresq
    Member

    Eh ujm: “Ein lecho adam sh’ein lo sh’ah”

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