Being able to Fargin; Nature or Nurture?

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  • #620056
    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    RabbiofBerlin, my kids also look chareidi, with a hat, etc. if you could believe it.

    On the topic of Reb Shlomo ZT”L, he once wanted to get a law passed in the Knesset that everybody in the enitre country is required to dance 3 times a day.

    #620057
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Pashute yid, you brought a big smile to my lips and real tears to my eyes. What a wonderful story! Shlomo zz’l was the real oihev yisroel par excellence. We miss his music, we miss his energy and we miss his Ahavas Yisroel. Yes, I know, soon this column will be populated by his detractors, but, before you write a line , look closely in the mirror and ask yourself if you ever brought back a yiddishe neshomo to its roots. And if you said yes to one or even ten such neshomos, remember that Shlomo z”l brought thousands of neshomos back to their roots. I cna be “mayid” personally to dozens of such people who today are part of oru Klal yisroel and are makpid on every mitzvah. Shlomo z’l still sings for us and his music is eternal.

    #620058
    Joseph
    Participant

    “OY, Hakodesh Boruch hu is great! All of a sudden,Joseph and I are best friends ! well,not quite…”

    I say, why not? quite so!

    #620059
    Think BIG
    Member

    Wow! Moshiach must really be approaching!

    #620060
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    well, joseph, then i reach across the political divide and embrace you,. THink BIg I already have ties with and so…vejaasu kulom agudah echos! maybe indeed the geulah will come out of ahavas yisroel!

    #620061
    Think BIG
    Member

    Rabbosai, we have an interesting phenomenon here being proven on this website: that the zionist “ideal” is fading away. Here we have two of klal Yisroel’s two biggest defenders of Zionism (Poshut and Rabbiof Berlin), and their children have returned to the “fold” despite their fathers strongly held beliefs! What more can we say?

    #620062
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    oy, I was going to close my computer but I saw think big’s remarks about pashute and myself. “Ma inyan shemittah eitzel har sinai?” I, too,was on the same wavelength as my own children when I was young till I grew up and saw the emess! Seriously though, I have written amply on another posting that I believe everyone who lives in Eretz yisroel today is a Zionist. So, you may say that the idea of “secular Zionism” is fading and in that, I join hands with you but frum Zionism? On the contrary, it goes “mechoil el choil”

    #620063
    Think BIG
    Member

    The connection is as follows: One of the arguments made as to the how we prove that Zionism is sheker, is by showing that it didn’t last.* Many “isms” have been made popular in their time, then slowly faded away (Communism, socialism to name a few)

    Zionism also, is in its dying stages as we see the real Zionists are all around your age, rabbi, and have not succeeded in passing it on to the next generation. Many, many of the Zionists at the forefont of the action at the time have children or grandchildren now living in chutz la’Aretz. So that’s why I find it amusing, for lack of better word, to find on this website, that the two most ardent supporters of Zionism on this site have Chareidi children. Is the connection clear now?

    Also, may I add, when you were your children’s ages the State was still fairly new and it was hard to see that the zionist ideal would eventually decline. You and I know that your yeshivishe sons and son-in-law are NOT going to “see the Emes”, (as you put it) and embrace the Zionist ideology.

    When we talk about Zionists, we do NOT refer to everyone who lives in Eretz Yisroel! (i don’t know anyone who uses such a definition!) I myself have lived there several years and would never consider myself a Zionist. A “Zionist” in todays world refers to a person who believes that the State of Israel is a valid institution as far as thier beliefs go (as you do). In other words, that we Jews had the right and obligation to take Eretz Yisroel by force, and for some, that that mitzva is the raison d’etre. That is a Zionist. I believe it is not valid, you believe it is.

    Just answer this, does your sone who lives in Eretz Yisroel consider himself a Zionist??

    *You alone have made this argument in regards to chassidim still being around and flourishing.

    #620064
    Think BIG
    Member

    There is a very nice vort I would like to share regarding the “ism” topic I mentioned before. Rabbi, I think even you would like it.

    I heard it on a tape by Rabbi Uziel Milevski, z”l, director of arachim or gateways, dont remember which…on the topic of MESSIANISM.

    He said that there is a possuk that ends “…venashuva el Hashem” , referring to the ultimate redemption. Then there’s an identical possuk that ends”…venashuva ad la’Hashem” (sorry I cannot give you exact possuk, for those who care to know chapter and verse. Maybe someone can help me out?) What’s the difference between el(to) and ad(until)? “Ad” means we will return until Hashem, up to Hashem, but not quite there. “El” means we are there.

    He said that as we are getting close to the Messianic era, there is a great and powerful spiritual energy and desire of all peoples of the world to try to find utopia. Therefor, in an attempt to create the perfect society, over the last century, many “isms” have erupted. The people who embraced communism and socialism truly felt that that society would be the end of all our problems. Obviously history has proven that they are dismal failures. Zionism was also one such attempt for a better society. More recently, people have devised of “Humanism” toward the same end.

    But all of these “isms” have a purpose. They are “venashuva AD laHashem”. By having people focus on trying to improve the world, though their ideas are false, they are bringing the world closer to the only true “ism” which is Messianism”-ie, living a life that is in sync with Hashem’s desire for us to live in the world of the Final Redemption. That is “venashuva el Hashem”.

    #620065
    cantoresq
    Member

    Think BIG, I think you’re wrong about Zionism. It’s alive and well and thriving, despite all the problems that abide in Israel. But, assuming arguendo, you’re correct? Why are so so happy about being right in this instance? The logical conclusion of your thesis is the end of the State of Israel. Given the likely successor state, an Arab state of some sort, over what is there to rejoice? Do you think for a minute thet any Arab government will allow for such a large jewish contingent? Do you really think chareidim would be allowed to proliferate as they currently do in Israel? What do you think the taxes might be on Dhimmi yeshivot and schuls? (historically Jews paid huege taxes, more than Christians ahd to pay to Muslim rulers in order to perate their religious institutions) How easy do you think it would be for you, or any other American to travel to Israel to the Kotel (hint Saudi Arabia doesn’t allow Jews to enter the country PERIOD)? Remember all those graves on Har HaZeitim? I hope you would remember them, because they would be obliterated. All you would have is your memories.

    I am an ardent Zionist. But I recognize that the Zionist enterprise has had a profound impact on the Jewish mentality; Those of us who grew up with a strong mighty and feared Medinat Yisrael, don’t really know what galut means. After all we had the chayal and the chalutz to admire, as opposed to weak and cowering ghetto Jew of yore. I further posit that even those who never sbscribed to Zionist ideal still never fully experienced galut in light of the advent of the Medinah. If you’re right about Zionism being moribund, then we all better get used to the old, more profound all encompassing galut. So tell me again why are you do G-d damned smug?

    #620066
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Think bIG, Thanks for the very wonderful vort. there is a tremedous amount of truth in that vort!

    #620067
    Think BIG
    Member

    actually, no, cantoresq. The logical conclusion to my thesis is that those who “believe” in Zionism come to recognise that It was “Kochi veotzim Yadi” and that it actually was not the answer to our “jewish dillema”. The answer to our long and bitter Galus will only come with the coming of Moshiach Tzidkeinu, and the rebuilding of the Bais Hamikdash. Zionism attempted to “fix” the problem, causing many new ones in its wake. You cannot force the geulah through power, but through prayer and adherence to the Torah. Zionism succeeded in pulling many of our people away from Torah. Zionism was distraction for many who unfortunately ceased their yearning and pleading for the true geulah.

    You are mistaken, cantoresq. I am not “happy” about being right. I am sad about the damage the Zionist propaganda has wrought, and I am sad that people like you cannot see it even now when it has become so obvious how Zionism has deluded the jewish people.

    If you have been following the conversation, you would realize that nobody was suggesting that now, after the fact, we think we would be better off if Eretz Yisroel reverted back to Arab hands. We debated the issue and clarified that it was a result of the advent of zionism that the arab world looks like it does today.

    you write, “Those of us who grew up with a strong mighty and feared Medinat Yisrael, don’t really know what galut means. After all we had the chayal and the chalutz to admire, as opposed to weak and cowering ghetto Jew of yore.” That, cantoresq is precisely where the problem lies. The zionists succeeded in glorifying the mighty chalutz who has abandoned yiddishkeit, and to denigrate the “weak and cowering ghetto jew” who was actually a giant of spirit, a soldier of the greatest army of Hashem, who was willing to be moser nefesh for his yiddishkeit.

    The rest of your paragraph proves what I began with, that Zionism attempted to show that if we have a state, we are not truly in galus anymore. It pains me that you think me/us smug. In fact it is sadness, mixed with a strong attempt at upholding Torah -true yiddishkeit in the face of blatant disregard of all that is holy.

    #620068
    cantoresq
    Member

    Think big, I’m not interested in your polemic. Moreover, if you want to blame other Jews for anti-Semitism (which is the canard employed by the amti-Semites) feel free to do so. Personally, I look at myself as a Jew in a more favorable light. But I gues we all see different things when we (colectively) look in the mirror. You see Jews as the cause of their misfortune, I see Jews overcoming their misfortune and thriving despite it. And BTW, did you ever bother to consider what might have been had the Torah world followed Rav Kook’s lead? Of course we can never know. Sadder yet we’ll never have the opportunity to find out.

    But let’s get down to tachlis. On a practicle level, please consider the consequences of you’re being right about zionism being moribund. If you don’t like those all too obvious consequences what are YOU (I mean you in the collective sense) prepared to do abnout it. And Please spare me some saccharine platitude about faith in the HKB”H. G-d does not expect us to sit on the sideliens as spectators in His game of life. We are the players He put on earth. Moreover, such sanguine protestations of faith didn’t stop the bullet from peircing R. Elchanan Wasserman’s head. Nor did they stop the Satmer Rav from saving his skin with the help of a Zionist. The extreme’s of R. Elchanan Wasserman’s faith led to his unnecessary death, and those of his disciples, while that of the Satmer Rav led to his ultimate hypocrisy.

    #620069
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Is there any purpose to a posting that tries to mediate between Think BIG and cantoresq? Maybe not, but I’ll try.

    Cantoresq, I hope to be as ardent a Zionist as you and I have said publicly (check my posts)that the chareidim are wrong in not taking a larger part in the medinah (BTW, chareidm were chalutzim too and worked the earth as the others. Not today ,sadly, but then no one does anymore) and I do feel that they are absolutely wrong in not joining the army,although it seems to be that changes may be in the air now.

    I do take exception to your description of the “weak and cowering ghetto jew of yore”. It is a diservice to generations of jews who continued to keep the flame of yiddishkeit alive through the most difficult times of our history. Jews wer not the only ones who -as you say- ‘cowered” in the face of greater might. Check your history. Until the 19th century, few countries were independent and most people “cowered’ before the mightier armies. I prefer to honor the memories of my forefathers who lived and labored valiantly under very difficult circumstances.

    Think BIG, I am not going to repeat the debate we had over the past days, but here again,I will take exception to by your first paragraph.”chochi veoitzem jodi’ there might have been, but there also was a real attempt at fusing the Zionist ideals with Torah. And as to your assertion that ‘the long and bitter galus will come to an end with Moshiach Zitkeinu”, The gemoro (shmuel,rabbi akiva,etc) and the Rambam seem to indicate that it is in our hands to start the geulah.And this is the basis upon which Rav Kook zz’l based his whole approahc to Eretz Yisroel. (btw, he was a talmid of Volozhin)

    #620070
    cantoresq
    Member

    If you have been following the conversation, you would realize that nobody was suggesting that now, after the fact, we think we would be better off if Eretz Yisroel reverted back to Arab hands. We debated the issue and clarified that it was a result of the advent of zionism that the arab world looks like it does today.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    I see, so Zionism is responsible for compelte lack of religious freedom in every Muslim country except Turkey? Zionism is responsible for the suppression of ethnic minorities throughout the Arab world? Zionism is responsible for the supression of women, including genital mutilation, found throughout the Arab world? Zionism created the Taliban? Give me a break.

    #620071
    cantoresq
    Member

    Herr Oberrabinner: My reference to the “ghetto Jew of yore” was not to disparage. Rather to draw an image and a contrast; nothing more.

    #620072
    Joseph
    Participant

    cantoresq,

    You aren’t interested because you fear the truth you have heard. You are naive for denying that sometimes anti-semitism IS caused by certain actions committed by certain Jews.

    To finish your foolish sentence lets change the person:

    “Moreover, such sanguine protestations of faith didn’t stop the” Romans from piercing the taneh Rabbe Akiva’s body. “The extreme’s of” Rabbe Akiva’s “faith led to his unnecessary death.”

    to help you understand what extreme foolishness you said.

    __________________________________

    Who cares if the Muslims suppress their own women, commit mutilation, have a Taliban, etc. This is their internal problems. What we have to worry about is how they act to us, not within their own. How they act to Jews today IS a result of the crimes the zionists committed.

    #620073
    Think BIG
    Member

    cantoresq: To tell you the truth, I am tired. Tired in general and tired debating such a topic when the two of us have such diametrically opposing views in areas such as Emunah, hishtadlus, emunas chachamim, hashgacha pratis etc, (as I can see from your two posts and many others on this site.) And I feel like I’m simply wasting my time with this, because if we can’t agree on the ground-rules, so to speak, how can we build above it?

    Your post is just so, so full of problematic statements, that I wouldn’t even know where to start. But, as you put it, you’re not interested in my “polemic”, so I will spare you my rebuttal.

    If you ever come to a point where you feel you are ready to open your mind a bit to try to understand the “chareidi” point of view, (and you calm down a bit from your anger) I am sure you will know where to go to get your information. So for now and until then, I wish you all the best of luck in all your endeavors.

    Rabbi of berlin: Ditto to you. As I have been saying all along, My view is based on the view of the gedolei torah, who show us how to view all aspects of life… But since we don’t agree on that…there is very little else to say on the subject, as far as i’m concerned.

    #620074
    cantoresq
    Member

    Joseph

    Member

    cantoresq,

    You aren’t interested because you fear the truth you have heard. You are naive for denying that sometimes anti-semitism IS caused by certain actions committed by certain Jews.

    To finish your foolish sentence lets change the person:

    “Moreover, such sanguine protestations of faith didn’t stop the” Romans from piercing the taneh Rabbe Akiva’s body. “The extreme’s of” Rabbe Akiva’s “faith led to his unnecessary death.”

    to help you understand what extreme foolishness you said.

    __________________________________

    Who cares if the Muslims suppress their own women, commit mutilation, have a Taliban, etc. This is their internal problems. What we have to worry about is how they act to us, not within their own. How they act to Jews today IS a result of the crimes the zionists committed.


    R E P L Y

    Oh Joseph I’m very aware that Jews sometimes cause anti-Semitism. I live in Monsey and I see it all the time. And your attempt to substitute R. akiva with R. Elchanan Wasserman in my statements is wrong on two accounts. First of all, R. Akiva was very much in facvor of armed revolt against the Romans. He supported the Bar Kokhba rebellion, calling him the Mashiach. R. Elchanan choose martyrdom and did not resist it at all. Secondly, as opposed to R. Akiva, R. Elchanan Wasserman had opportunities to escape Europe and chose not to, preferring to die a martyr than emmigrate to America, which he considered treif. That was his choice, but he went further and advised others to choose the same fate. I will never be able to understand and thereby condone how he could ever have told people to die rather than live. I know of no historical reference that R. Akiva ever acted similarly.

    #620075
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    think big, actually, your posting made me chuckle. You seem to lump me together with cantoresq in one big anti-chareidi mass. Forgive me if I am wrong about this. I am kind of disappointed in that because I love chassidim -who are certainly charedim. I have learned in chareidi yeshivos and, as you wrote, have two sons who may be considered in the chareidi camp. So, I fully and absolutely understand the chareidi position(and yes, I have learned the vaoyel moshe too).

    Our disagreement is about which way is the truth- no- let me rephrase this- which way is more applicable today, because I don’t want to imply that the chareidi/agudah way is “wrong”. And in this, I squarely follow the Gedolim ,and there are many of them, who take a much more sanguine view of Eretz yisroel and our attachment to the medinah.

    The reason why I do not suscribe to an uncritical acceptance of a specific Godol’s word is because I just don’t believe that gedolim are infallible, and especially when there are other divergent views.

    Well, maybe now we have truly exhausted our discussion on this and only the future will tell.

    #620077
    Think BIG
    Member

    Rabbi, i’m sorry you took offense. I did not intend to lump you together with Cantoresq in that you are in the same category, but I wrote ditto to you because what I answered him applies to you too. Namely, that our hashkafos do not run along the same line, so therfore there is little we can debate in the zionism issue. Once again, for the last time, I hope, our hashkafa is what we’ve been taught by our gedolim. If you disagree with that view, you are disagreeing with the gedolim (despite the fact that you want to claim that the gedolim don’t really hold by what we say they do. i say, the proof is in the pudding, look at their followers, and you’ll see what their beliefs are.)

    You write:

    “Our disagreement is about which way is the truth- no- let me rephrase this- which way is more applicable today, because I don’t want to imply that the chareidi/agudah way is “wrong”.” Rabbi, To me, what’s applicable is what our gedolim teach. What is applicable is to keep our eyes on the goal, which is to me mekadesh Shem Shomayim, to do all we can to bring the geulah. By investing in a “medinah” which tries to take us out of that, which tries to claim that this is the geulah…that is not going to bring us to our goal.

    As I said, I’m really tired of this discussion, and I see all the other posters are smarter than me. They all abandoned this blog when they realized the futility of this, and only I (and joseph) remained to fight it out. I do think you try to open your mind to hear–for this I give you credit. But as i see it, what needed to be said was said on both sides, and at this point we are all just wasting our time. So, I wish you the very best, and we will iy”h meet again on other happy occasions.

    #620078
    cantoresq
    Member

    Think BIG

    Member

    Rabbi, i’m sorry you took offense. I did not intend to lump you together with Cantoresq

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    In certain cirlces being lumped together me with would be thought to be a good thing.

    #620079
    ujm
    Participant

    cantor, that must be a rare case indeed.

    #620080
    Think BIG
    Member

    cantoresq, I’m sorry to you too that you took offense. Read rabbi’s post to see in what context he said it and in that context I replied.

    ujm: you seem to have a knack for saying really insulting comments. It is not becoming of you.

    #620081
    cantoresq
    Member

    Eh ujm: “Ein lecho adam sh’ein lo sh’ah”

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