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This past shabbos, I saw someone in shul applying lip balm. What should be done?
First make sure that you are up on the halachot, e.g. maybe there is a tsad heter. Perhaps the person relies on a minority opinion (if there is one, IDK).
Figure out the person’s religious level. You already said that s/he probably carried on Shabbat. Is there a reliable eruv? There level is important to know if they really care, so that you know if they are approachable.
Find someone whom they will listen. If not, proceed with the utmost of care. Show them genuine concern for them.
Maybe you should ask the Rav of your shul.
You should tell the person nicely say like oh by the way I don’t know if you realized but putting lip balm on shabbos is not allowed…… If you want to tell them
Ask Rav Sperling – Chapstick on Shabbat
By: Rabbi Da’vid Sperling
Answer:
Shalom,
I am sorry to hear that you are suffering on Shabbat from dry skin. In treating this on Shabbat there are two issues at hand. The first is the law against applying medicines in cases where one is not classified as “sick” but only suffering from mild discomfort. In such cases the use of medicines or medical treatments is forbidden by a rabbinic decree. This would seem to prohibit the treatment of your dry skin on Shabbat in any fashion. However there are several possible ways that this may none the less be allowed. Firstly, if you apply the treatment before the skin gets irritable it is not considered as medical treatment to cure a problem, but rather making sure that one does not get sick. This is akin to applying sun block oil before going outside, which is allowed as it is only a preventative measure (as opposed to putting oil on burnt skin, which is a cure). Secondly, if the medical procedure is normally carried out by people not suffering at all it is also allowed. So drinking lemon and honey tea to alleviate a mild sore throat is allowed, as people would drink it even when perfectly healthy. So because eating an oily salad is normal behaviour, you could eat it and let the oil alleviate your chapped lips in the process. Lastly, if the dry skin is of such a serious nature that it may crack and get infected then it would be considered as in the category of a sickness that one is allowed to treat on Shabbat if one does not break any other Shabbat laws (though in general dry lips and skin do not fall into this definition, it could be that one has an extreme case of eczema etc then this would be the case).
Based on all this I can suggest the following – if your skin is not yet cracked you should find a liquid lotion to apply on Shabbat. If you can’t find one, you could water down (or “oil down”) a thicker one until it is runny. As for your lips, I have seen clear liquid “roller-ball” lip treatments, which might be of help to you. As they are liquid, and apply no colour to the lips, they are acceptable on Shabbat.
If the skin is already chapped and irritable, then I can suggest eating food dipped in oil, and letting the oil soak into and over your lips, which may provide some help.
Blessings, Rav Sperling.
Assume the gentleman keeps his lip balm tube, at back of his Tallis bag probably with his handkerchief, and that he brings Tallis bag to Shul before Kabolas Shabbos & brings it home after Motzei Shabbos, so chances that he carried in street are exceedingly remote to say the least.
Then assume that what looks like lip balm, may have been tube of disinfectant & that maybe he had oral surgery this week, and must keep his mouth well disinfected. This is not remote thinking:- I had oral surgery this Friday 2 days ago, so these scenarios are more real than you goofus would care to believe.
and if it WAS lip balm and you think this fellow was mechallel shabbos, speak to your Rav. He is better suited to discussing hilchos shabbos with this fellow, than you.
exactly………….
The title is very misleading -“mechalel shabbos in shul” -which it is not- and should be corrected. Allow me to add another “tsad hetter”- “kele-achar jad”. Clearly, the person applies the tube to hs lips without interference by his hand or fingers- that may be ‘kelachar jad”, as the original “melocho” in the mishkan was done with the hands-namely smoothing the hides from all hair.
ROB,
There is a term for creating “heterim” like the one you picked out of thin air. Even if you intentionally misspelled “yad.
Kol yisroel areivim zeh l’zeh. Giving tochacha is halachicly required of every Jew, not just of rabbis.
Whilst Lior theoretically is correct, but since the intended goal is that this individual end up acting correctly, so let the rabbi be your Sholiach to converse with this individual, as no-doubt the Rabbi will have more expertise to win the point over to this individual.
Nishtday….. ROB typically spells many words that are pronounced with a “y” sound, with the letter j. For him, this is not a misspelling.
oomis-thank you.
nisht”: rather thn hurling personal insults- please stick to the actual subject. Why isn’t my explanation correct??? using a stick is certainly “kelachar jad” ij my nook. please tell me why it is not so.
Of course it’s not ????? ??. That’s the normal way to put on ChapStick.
“Giving tochacha is halachicly required of every Jew, not just of rabbis.”
Only when you are certain the person will listen. Accusing someone of chillul shabbos, when not 100% conversant in hilchos shabbos is not tochacha, at best it is just being stupid.
Only when you are certain the person will listen.
Ask your Rav if that’s true.
apushatayid: If I see someone doing something that I believe one may not do on Shabbos, I simply tell them, “I think one is not allowed to do that on Shabbos”. I don’t need to get a rav to talk to the person.
(it has happened several times. none of the people I said that to got affended)
DaasYochid: it is irrelevant that “chapstick” uses a stick. The question is what is the normal way of applying any cream or balm and smoothing it out- I could as equally say that it is with the hands,not with a “kli”. so, to say it may be “kelachar jad’ can be logical too.
It’s completely relevant.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=916&pgnum=177
In separate teshuvos, R’ Moshe says that lipstick and toothpaste are ????. Both are applied using a ???.
so, if i apply toothpaste or chapstick using my finger, all is good?
“Ask your Rav if that’s true.”
I did. He said it is.
Trust. Yes, say that. The OP is talking about telling someone they are a mechallel shabbos. If you “think” they are, dont call them one. Suggest they look into what they are doing, or sugget they ask the Rav.
Does lip balm = chapstick? perhaps it is very loose and greasy and mimachek doesnt apply at all, and perhaps the issue is one of refua and not mimachek? Did he shmear the lip balm or did he dab it onto his lips and then smack his lips together? Lets not be so quick to call someone a michallel shabbos, especially if the facts are not known, much less the relevant halachos.
The OP is talking about telling someone they are a mechallel shabbos.
Which thread?
so, if i apply toothpaste or chapstick using my finger, all is good?
Where did you get that from?
I did. He said it is.
Amazing. Now ask him how one can ever possibly be certain that the person will listen.
Does lip balm = chapstick?
Can you pour it?
“Giving tochacha is halachicly required of every Jew, not just of rabbis.”
Only when you are certain the person will listen.
Incorrect. Your halachic obligation to give tochacha is not exempt even if you’re uncertain he will listen. You are only exempt if you are certain he will not listen.
LIor: actually it is more complciated because we say “mutov shejehei shoggegim mishejehei meizidim’ and if someone does not know the halocho , it is better not to tell him/her so as not to make him a “meizid” (only exception if it is explicitly written in the Torah)
DaasYochid: applying toohpaste with a brush is the normal way of doing,hence it is “kedarko”. and, indeed, as apashatuyid testified, his Rov allowed toothpaste to be rubbed on with the fingers- although I don’t know his reason, “kelachar jad’ is as good as any other.
Equally, lipstick is applied with a stick and, as far as I know, only in such a way-hence ,it is “kedarko” Balms and creams are applied more often with the fingers (vaseline,for example) and hence, with a “kli’ would be “kelachar jad”.
May I also point out thast R”Moshe’s shittah about toothpaste is not universally accepted. I don’t know about lipstick.
rob: That point is applicable if you are certain he will disregard your informing him of the halacha. If there’s a possibility he will comply with the halacha if you correct him, you are obligated to inform him of the halacha and his error. (And chillul Shabbos, per the topic here, is d’orsaysa in any event.)
Toothpaste is not considered assur by everyone, but the minhag is to be machmir like R’ Moshe, the Tzitz Eliezer, and others. There are more reasons to be machmir by ChapStick (it’s thicker, and stays in the skin, whereas toothpaste is thinner, and washed away immediately). Lipstick has the additional problem of tzovea.
But my point wasn’t that the issur is universally held (although that is the mainstream psak). My point was that you made up a heter of kilachar yad. ChapStick comes in a stick, is meant to be applied from the stick, and that is in no way shape or form kilachar yad. Note that the OP didn’t say what type of lip balm was used or how it was applied; you just assumed, for no reason, that it was done kilachar yad. (Even if one did apply it kilachar yad it would still be assur in the vast majority of cases, BTW.)
DaasYochid: Chapstick is a balm-not unlike any handcream or other vaseline-like(petroleum jelly for the uninitiated)products. It was put into a tube for easier application but it is not necessarily universally applied with the tube. There are, for example, similar tubes made by “Vaseline” with the same way of application. Toothpaste is never applied in any other way. Neither is lipstick ever applied in other ways. Hence, the possibility of Chapstick being “kelacahr jad” is present, when it is not possible to be relevant with tootpaste or lipstick. For the record, I would not use chapstick or vaseline on shabbos , exsctly because it might be “memachek’. My point was only to be ‘melamed zechus’ on that person,not unlike what apushateyid wrote concerning the doubts what happened.
Lor: the fact that this is d’oraisa is not relevant here. The Remo clearly writes that “mutov shejehi shoggegim” is applicable even to d’oraisas, except when it is explicitly written in the Torah. Example: making fire is written explicitly in the Torah and therefore one must point it out. Any other melocho is not written explicitly and we do say “muttov shejeh shoggegim”
It’s still not kilachar yad, because it’s the normal way to apply it, and it would still be assur regardless. If you want to find a limud z’chus, fine, but find one that makes sense.
DaasYOchid: too late to reply in detail,will continue tomorrow IYH
rob: You ignored my main point and only addressed my parenthetical point.
The more eager you are to give tochacha the less you should do it, you dont know if the person knows what he is doing is wrong it should be done with kind words and a warm face.
Lior: your point about pointing out a potential “aveirah” is valid and, indeed, if given with humor and humility , it is a commendable way. I only noted that it is not an overarching principle that one has to point out an ‘aveirah”.
“the minhag is to be machmir like R’ Moshe, the Tzitz Eliezer, and others”
Actually in my community the minhag is to be machmir on oral hygiene like Rav Soloveitchik and Rav Ovadia Yosef. 😉
‘The Remo clearly writes that “mutov shejehi shoggegim” is applicable even to d’oraisas, except when it is explicitly written in the Torah.’
Who here would tell their his to disrobe in public if you discovered that her dress contained a forbidden mixture of wool and linen?
charleihall- we are not talking here about actions- only about telling someone that he/she has erred. And, I am not sure whether your scenario would qualify under the Remo’s qualifications-because just wearing a garment that contains linen and wool does not necessarily men it is shaatnez. it depends on the thread, how it is sown, etc.
I gave this story once before. I was in Monsey and the people I was with held by the greater Monsey Eruv, but we passed by a Viznitz enclase and their eruv was down (The greater Monsey Eruv was up) The chassidim yelled at us, Eruv G’Broken . Eruv G’Broken
The OP is talking about telling someone they are a mechallel shabbos. If you “think” they are, dont call them one.
I don’t think the OP was talking about telling someone they are A mechallel Shabbos! One should NEVER call someone a mechallel Shabbos unless they are being melacha Shabbos l’hachis.
Who here would tell their his to disrobe in public if you discovered that her dress contained a forbidden mixture of wool and linen?
See Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deiah 303:1
????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??”? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????
Perhaps im guilty of “assuming” but i assume this thread was named by the op.
So? Is naming a thread thusly “telling him” that he’s a mechallel Shabbos?
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