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Issue With Inconsiderate Men Davening On The Bus Every Morning

(52 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by mirroronthewall
  • Latest reply from enlightenedjew

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  1. OK, so i commute to school in new york. every morning, the men on the bus have a minyan, since its basically the only time they have, the 2 hours on the bus.the problem is , they are inconsiderate.the men make up 2/3 of the bus, but still; they sit on the ladies side before all the ladies even are all on, they make us move up if the curtain they put around us isn't long enough, and if they HAVE to move up if we ABSOLUTELY cant squish any more, they make a huge deal out of it. now, i know the men have to daven, and they try their best. i know that when they go home, they will teat their wives and daughters respectfully;but the least they could do is apologize for the inconvenience.
    just the other day i heard two men talking. ti was sitting in the last seat of the few ladies seats that there were (first five rows on the left) because i got on at the last stop, and the curtain didn't fit around my seat by 2 inches. one man said to the other,
    "just ask her to move up"
    "but i ask her to move up every day!"
    "so what, who cares?"
    now, i don't only call that inconsiderate, but also rude. they were right behind me! i could hear them! am i the only one who thinks the situation is completely out of hand? a pregnant women once had to stand, cuz there were no seats left! of course the men noticed her after 20 minutes, but why is a pregnant women standing, when many men have their own seats?! by the way, for all those gasping in shock, i offered her a 100 times to take my seat, but she refused.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    I feel like there are two things going on here. Is the problem the davening, or is the problem the mechitza and separate seating?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. yes i know, that the 'right' answer. but they can still be considerate about it. im not asking them to stopdavening. just to maybe once in a while apologize for the inconviniece, or even rather, the women should sit in the whole front, and the men should get the whole back, that way, the curtain will always fit, and no one is upset. are you a guy> then its non relatable to you, because plain and simple, you have to daven. but to me, as a high school student, the torah says to treat your friend like you would want to be treated, to have midos. i would think that this would be equally as important

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. truthsharer
    Blocked

    You can always tell them that their davening is most likely not making it past the roof of the bus if they are being inconsiderate to the women on the bus.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. popa: Is the problem the davening, or is the problem the mechitza and separate seating?
    i dont care that they daven. in fact, i think its beautiful. i get to answer amen, and hear shofur the whole, elul, which most women dont. but the inconsideration is getting out of hand

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. i know, truthsharer, thats what i thought too!!what good is it, if its making such a huge chilul hashem? and let me tell you, they have made SUCH a chilul hashem on me. NEVER have i thought less of people in my life

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. the thing is, i think they know theyr being rude, but try to justify it in their minds

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. anon1m0us
    Member

    mirror I actually used to daven on those buses until I decided I'd rather wake up and go to shul.

    You are correct. What them men do is we all take two seats. One for our coat and tallis bag and the other to sit. We do expect the women to sit two by two while we can stretch and be comfortable.

    You can either accept the situation because these people will not change or go to a non minyan bus.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. takahmamash
    Member

    Buses are not made for davening; shules are. Maybe the men need to be a bit less lazy and get into shule to daven. I can't imagine how anyone has kavana on a crowded bus.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. on the ball
    Member

    This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard of in a long time.

    If they don't own the bus, sit wherever you like and when they confront you tell them to get up early and go to Shul like Jewish men have been doing for thousands of years.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. 147
    -105

    mirroronthewall:- and hear shofur the whole, elul
    Needless to say, I blow the Shofar for my wife & daughter each & every morning in Ellul, before going to work. Furthermore, if for some reason I miss seeing them in the morning, they are also able to blow my Shofar. On Friday's, if I left early, I still blow for them in the afternoon, as I am home before Sundown on Fridays.

    But more disturbingly, can praying on a bus really engender an atmosphere of "Da Lifnei Mi Atto Omed"? Can any rational person really envision himself standing in front of a King? whilst on a fast moving bus, watching his balance etc.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. gavra_at_work
    caution

    But more disturbingly, can praying on a bus really engender an atmosphere of "Da Lifnei Mi Atto Omed"? Can any rational person really envision himself standing in front of a King? whilst on a fast moving bus, watching his balance etc.

    I'm not a Posek, but why is this any different than davening on an airplane? Most Poskim hold (and do L'maase)(I don't know of any who disagree) to daven in your seat without a minyan, but the "Chasside Shoite" feel they know better than the Gedolim and need to make a Matza Minyan, next to the bathrooms.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. I guess gaw holds that Rav Scheinberg was a "Chasside Shoite" all the times he davened with a minyan on an airplane.

    takah: How do you have more kavana in the 30 minute shachris minyan you attend, that you've boasted of, than on a 2 hour bus minyan?

    OTB: The bus owners facilitate and encourage the minyan. If you dont like it, feel free to drive.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. gavra_at_work
    caution

    I guess gaw holds that Rav Scheinberg was a "Chasside Shoite" all the times he davened with a minyan on an airplane.

    Interesting, Joe, source?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. gavra_at_work
    caution

    OTB: The bus owners facilitate and encourage the minyan. If you dont like it, feel free to drive.

    I actually agree with Joe here.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. Mirror, I know the bus company of which you speak; I take that bus, too.
    I'm a guy, and I agree 100% with everything you're saying - in fact, I've seen the same things.

    Buses are not made for tefilla since proper kavana and comportment, even at a minimum level, is virtually unattainable. I get up earlier to go daven, or daven at home. I do not daven on the bus at all.
    Nor is having davening on the bus in general a good exercise in kavod ha'b'riyos. There are almost always other people on the bus who are not participating in a minyan that just want to quietly read, sleep, etc in preparation for the long workday. Bus minyanim tear that time away from the individual, although mitigated somewhat [at least for shacharis] by having separate 'minyan' buses. This is more true for the impromptu mincha or ma'ariv minyan than for shacharis, as I wrote above, though I have had the pleasure of having morning 'minyan' bus riders coming aboard the 'non-minyan' bus and holding a minyan there.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. LKY, there are many other communities that don't have a 'minyan' bus - those people who commute get up early, daven, and then get on the bus and get on just fine.

    Bus davening, especially on a daily basis, is not ideal at all. But too many people don't want to get up early...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. A 'Jewish' bus is in theory a very nice idea, but in practice can go awry. When everyone around you is a 'member of your club', so to speak, you may think less about what bothers others around you.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Curiosity
    Not a cat person

    This whole bus thing is so disgusting...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. Curiosity-
    I don't know if I'd go so far as to use the term 'disgusting'.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. Curiosity - I'M just curious - have you had experience with this bus?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. Torah613Torah
    (613)Torah²

    I took a similar bus. If they have to be separated, I still don't understand why the women aren't in the front.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. Confucious
    Joseph

    Because a man (halachicly) should not be behind a woman.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. apushatayid
    Member

    "they sit on the ladies side before all the ladies even are all on,"

    This is not unique to a bus. The Rav of my shul was very adamant that men not sit in the ezras nashim during the week when ladies are not in shul, yet there are those who persisted in theis behavior. It got to the point where the Rav instructed the shammas not to turn on the lights or the heat in the ezras nashim to "encourage" all the men to sit on the "mens side". There are still men who go straight to the ezras nashim, and daven in the dark and the cold. I guess they just dont like being in shul. At least they "chap a minyan" on the bus.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. Curiosity
    Not a cat person

    EJ- no I have not, but that's irrelevant. The way it is being described sounds disgusting, and the whole concept of davening on a bus on a regular basis sounds like it is an extreme belittling of the kavod of davening. There is a reason why a beit haknesset has special holiness and special halachas that apply only to it. It is considered a "mikdash me'at." To be comfortable enough to daven on the bus and turn it into a makom kavua for davening is a complete insensetivity to the holiness and chashivut of davening - this is besides the lack of kavanah, lack of derech eretz, and the chilluley Hashem that come out of it. People are throwing Yiddishkeit under the bus... sorry I couldn't resist.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. Apushutayid - "At least they "chap a minyan" on the bus"

    That's the point. Minyanim aren't really supposed to be "chapped". I can't tell you how many times (virtually daily basis) I've seen impromptu minchas and maarivs "chapped" on the bus, disturbing everyone else around them, when mincha or maariv could easily have been davened properly in a shul or shtieble once getting home.

    While we're on the subject, why is it that mechitzos are put up for shacharis, but not for mincha & maariv? Food for thought.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. Curiosity -
    I would tend to agree, but not fully. Men do have an obligation to daven, and, if we're talking about the bus that I think we're talking about, they DO usually have separate minyan buses in the morning, so you do know what you're getting yourself into in the morning, at least on the Place In Upstate NY Not Far From NYC to Manhattan commuter buses... ;-)

    However, I fully agree that the concept itself of bus minyanim is not an ideal one at all, it is quite a "b'diavad" one.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. In short, my view on the subject:

    Bus minyanim - not ideal, should not be done

    If you HAVE to:

    Shacharis minyan is OK - b/c there are options for non-minyan and non-minyan, so WYSIWYG

    Adhoc Mincha/Maariv: NOT ACCEPTABLE

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. Torah613Torah
    (613)Torah²

    Confucius - they're separated by curtains anyway. And the women have to go through the men to get through the back. We are allowed to look at men, wouldn't it make more sense for them to go through the women?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. T613,

    What are you talking about? I have had the occasion to be on a minyan bus on more than one occasion as well as when there was no davening on the same bus line. The women are not at the back of the bus at all. (Unless they walk there themselves).

    In fact, from my experience it is clear that almost no one commenting here has been on the minyan busses. And that the poor attitude described by anon1 is his own.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. Torah613Torah
    (613)Torah²

    Nisht, I've been on separated buses, none that had minyanim. And the women are in the back on every single one I've been on. Except one where the curtain went down the middle.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. T613,

    So, as you yourself have admitted, you are clueless about the issue being discussed here.

    The women are not relegated to the back of the bus on minyan busses.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. anon1m0us
    Member

    nishtdayngesheft: Have you ever been on a minyan bus? If you have,you would affirm what I described is the truth and not make it seem like what the OP described is not the norm.

    The wall street bus and the Manhattan buses, women are forced to double up in a row so the men can each have two seats. Please do not try to deny this because that would be lying.

    As I mentioned prior, there are always the non minyan bus this young lady can take, where the seating is not prearranged and she can sit on any side of the bus. But the minyan bus is controlled by men.
    Don't get me started with the bus that stops for Shemna Esrai! They don't have a problem davvening on a bus, but for Shemoni Esrai the need to stop?! What about making people late for work??!

    This whole attitude of davening on the bus is that we think our teffilos is mvater everyone else's comfort! In fact, if there are no separate buses, it is rude for men to disturb people on the bus. It is inconsiderate and selfish to assume that g-d wants our teffilos while disturbing others.

    I personally hate it when people on the way home decide to davven on the bus mincha or maariv. I work hard all day and all i want to do on the bus is sleep and relax for that hour. Then some men decide that it is OK to disturb people for minyan because it's terrible to miss a minyan. Even if it disturbs ONE person, you should not davven on the bus. Show hashem that 1) you are considerate to others so he should be considerate to you and 2) maybe put in an extra effort trying to find a minyan during the day and not be lazy and do it on the bus.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. Anoying1:

    I have been on the minyan bus and other buses as well. I think I can identify you. There are several people who have little self esteem and seem to blame their misery on others. Anyone who travels these buses regularly knows exactly which passengers I am referring to. Thank you for describing yourself.

    My experience is that at least as many women have double seats as men do.

    You don't like the bus that stops (And there is only 1) Take another, that has been the longest running route of the company. Which is a 6:40AM bus. You can hardly call those people lazy, they are on their way way before netz a goodly portion of the year.

    I am calling you out precisely because I have been on those buses a number of time and it is clear that you are manufacturing "facts".

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Don't get me started with the bus that stops for Shemna Esrai! They don't have a problem davvening on a bus, but for Shemoni Esrai the need to stop?! What about making people late for work??!

    Was the stop for Sh'E planned, or impulsive? If it was planned, it's pretty silly to complain about it. If it wasn't planned, then you have a right to complain.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. MDG
    Member

    "Because a man (halachicly) should not be behind a woman. "

    WRONG. That's only for walking, not sitting.

    Furthermore, even if you say that they should not look at women during davening, there is a mechitza.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. Confucious
    Joseph

    They should not be looking at them even when they are not davening. (Same reason as not walking behind them.) Second of all, the general rule in Judaism is that men go first.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. okay, so thanks everyone for your input... a few things. first, for those that said i should just drive, im only in high school. cant do that yet. thank you, curiosity, i would have to agree with you. i know its not how they mean it, but it does come across as disgusting. yes, the bus does stop for sh'e, usually bringing me to school a half hour late. i agree that there should be a seperate minyan bus, but what can i do about it?
    what nisht said; please dont think im am trying to blame my misery and self esteem issues on the men; i am simply stating the chilul hashem that ive felt. you may not agree, but ill say that plenty of the women would agree with me. i think its amazing that i get to be on taht bus and have the zchus of amen, but nevertheless, the way the women are treated is wrong. theres no reason why the men cant put their hats in the overhead compartment, or such. also, like i said in the first post, im not looking to change the world, simply bring this to men like yours attention. also, from what you have said led me to beleive it is not the same bus youre talking about, nisht.
    please dont think badly of me. i just think the men should recognize the impact their actions have made on me, and strive to fix them. also, i DO beleive that the men should not be davening on the bus all together, but rather once they get to new york, or earlier in the morning, then get on on the last stop.
    also; thank you, enlightenedjew. but in order to make it on time to shcool, i must take the earliest bus, which is the minyan bus. for all those who argue my point, its not the point, whether or not this is wrong. the point is, it LOOKS wrong. i doubt it says anywhere in the torah, " its okay to treat people badly so you could daven in a place that you shouldnt even really be davening in"

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. anon1m0us
    Member

    nishtdayngesheft- Actually, the 6:40 has not been the longest run in the company because if you really took that bus, you would know that is it a merged bus when they redid it a few years ago with the 6:45 bus and 6:35. So you statement is inaccurate. The fact you can say women have the same amount of seat shows how shallow you are. Women on the bus do not have an option where to sit because men like you quarantine them to a small area. Yes, if few women get on the bus, they have more room. However, if more women get on the bus, they are forced into the area like cattle, while the men sit like “brita mechitens”. I find it humorous how you can argue and justify your position instead of just accepting the truth.
    No one called them lazy going to work, but lazy in treating avodas hashem with the same zeal as they do with the bus! There are people who go to a 6:00AM minyan in shul and catch a 6:40 non minyan, these people one can respect. This bus also only stops for a few old timers who insist it must stop for narish reasons.
    So far everything I have said, you agreed with, so yes it is a fact! You may argue the reasons, but the actions are all FACTS.

    DaasYochid: You are right, I can not complain because it is planned. I am complaining how silly it is. You have one old man looking out the window for land marks and tells the baal tifilah when to start Yishtabach, Shema etc. It’s like “ Oh, we passed a gas station, start Boruch Sheamor”…no, wait 5 minutes for Shema because we did not pass the flag pole. Seriosuly?!!?! Instead of davviening being a communication that flows to hashem, we have land marks that inform the gabbi when to allow the baal tefilah to continue davvening. In addition, it used to be accepted to stop for 5 minutes, which people agreed. Now it is close to 10 minutes!!! This was not planned and causes those people to be late to work because someone feels there hailiga teffilos is more important than Ben Adom Lechaveyoro.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  40. takahmamash
    Member

    takah: How do you have more kavana in the 30 minute shachris minyan you attend, that you've boasted of, than on a 2 hour bus minyan?

    I don't believe I was boasting at the time; I think I was just stating a fact, that our minyan is 30 minutes.

    How do we have more kavana? Let me count the ways:

    1. Our minyan faces one way the entire time; we're not subject to the twists and turns of the road.
    2. We do not have to balance and/or sway because the floor is moving.
    3. We do not have to raise our voices to be heard above a bus engine or outside noise.
    4. We do not have to ask people to move around and change seats.
    5. There is more inherent kedusha in a shule, which is a mikdash me'at, than in a bus, which has zero kedusha.

    I don't think I need to go on; I've made my point.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  41. anon1m0us
    Member

    Takah: I agree with you. As someone who davvens on the bus ( I admit, I am lazy to get up and go to shul), I am appaled how little of Hilchos Teffilah people know. You do not need to stand when traveling, not even for Shemona Esrai!
    You are correct, you probablly have more Kavana in those 30 minutes, then anyone on the bus because 1) getting up and down while the bus is moving, is not so easy, 2) constantly waiting (feels like 5 minutes) until the old man allows the Baal Tefilah to continue because we passed a landmark is distracting. 3) If you are one of the unfortunate people who has a seatmate, it is also cramped having a coat, tallis/teffilin bag and your belongings on top of you.

    For anyone to disagree with the OP that we cordon off the women and keep as many seats as possible is lying and rishus. The FACT remains, the mechitza is usually up before women get on the bus and we determine where and how many seats they are allowed to have. Before the mechitza is moved to grant more space, we verify that they are all doubled up while the men have rows to themselves.

    So before you argue or disagree with me, please show me ONE minyan bus that the mechitza goes up on the GSP when davvening starts.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  42. zahavasdad
    Member

    Who pays for these buses, Do they receive government funding or not.

    This was the issue with "back of the bus" before, the bus company had received government funding and had to pick up anyone who wanted to go.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  43. A few years ago I took that bus to school every day as well and had similar experiences. I took the subway every day as well and I don’t remember ever feeling the need to pull anybody’s sideburns so that they winced in pain (maybe bc on the subway they shave them off) Since getting my own car I have vowed never to take that bus again and thankfully haven’t needed to. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like the problem is going away.

    Asking someone to behave a certain way sometimes negates the point, but in the long run it will make your ride and probably many other lady’s a lot more pleasant. You should explain your situation to one of the main guys there or maybe to the bus service and if you talk it out nicely I am sure they will make some effort to make it a more comfortable experience for you.

    To the others that replied, if the OP was irritated about the actual davening perhaps your blind judgments about whether or not their teffilos are with good intentions might be appropriate to some extent, but it turns out- it’s not;)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  44. apushatayid
    Member

    What nusach is davened on the bus? whose minhagim are followed? Is the driver allowed to partake in the tikkun if he is part of the minyan?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  45. lets just clarify....its not lakewood/manhattan, its lakewood/brooklyn bus

    Posted 1 year ago #
  46. Mirror -
    My bad - I thought you were talking about the Monsey bus...

    Anon1 - Monsey bus does that many times (curtain goes up while very near GSP)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  47. Confucious
    Joseph

    Personally I am in favor of all the buses, minyan or no minyan, having a mechitza for the entire duration of the bus ride.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  48. anon1m0us
    Member

    enlightenedjew: Which bus are you taking?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  49. N.G
    Member

    They should have a minyan bus and a regular bus.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  50. apushatayid
    Member

    They should have a nusach ashkenaz bus and a nusach sefard bus. Also, one for nusach ari, edah mizrach and one for the teimanim too.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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