Dating: Parents or Girl?

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  • #588766

    Futzer
    Member

    I dont think i am the only who feels this way, but sometimes parents will say yes to a shidduch because THEY like it. Problem: their daughter is looking for something else. Parents saying yes to something they want doesnt lead a guy to say yes to marry their daughter. Guys can tell so easily that their girl is looking of a different type of guy. Word of advice, discuss the type of guy your looking for with your daughter and then actually look. Maybe that will solve the shidduch crisis.

    #652046

    I wasn’t aware that this was an issue. If the situation is as you say, then the shidduch crisis is much worse than I thought.

    #652047

    of course that is a major part of the shidduch crises parents are saying no for their kids bec thats not the type of girl/boy they want to marry forgetting that they are not the ones who need the shidduch and their child is looking for s/t totally diff

    #652048

    Chacham2
    Member

    I thought the boy/girl gets final sign-off on the shidduch.

    #652049

    Don’t forget that your parents have more experience in life than you. SOme 18 yr. olds think they are super mature and that they know all about what to look for etc…obviously anyone older and wiser will tell u this is naiive. Your parents want the best for u.

    I had a friend that was very frustrated since her father checked out the boys first and he nixed most of them. Some of teh guys she said she really felt would have liked to date. He father assure her he had good reason.She felt he was too “picky” etc.

    Then he finally met boy that he approved of, she dated him for a while and they got engaged. Today she laughs at herself, how foolish she was to argue with her father. She told her father, she hopes he will be the one to choose the guys for her kids…she says she doesnt trust herself!

    Older is wiser and there is no denying that!

    #652050

    mw13
    Participant

    This problem is especially relevant when the father’s just looking at how the guy learns, not his middos. That’s looking for a chavrusah for your daughter, not a shidduch!

    #652051

    oomis
    Participant

    The problem is when the mother of the boy does not think the girl is pretty enough,thin enough rich enough, tall enough, etc. for her precious baby. Many girls are rejected for the most shallow of reasons, by mothers who are living vicariously through their sons. One woman (I think I related this story once here) called me as a reference about a girl whom I had watchwed grow up into a gorgeous and wonderful young woman. After wasting a half hour of my time on the phone asking me some very obnoxious questions that I would not have answered even had I knwon the answers, and after telling her repeatedly what an outstanding girl she is from a wonderful mishpacha, the woman said that was all well and good but she hears the girl is short, and she doesn’t want short grandchildren! In this case, the girl was well-rid of such a shvigger!

    I do not always think that parents know what is best for their children. They can only know what they would like to see for their children, but that is not always right for them. A father whose main concern is for a talmid chochum, or a mother who only wants a girl with a rich father, can be overlooking the very real needs of their child. Maybe a talmid chochum who will sit and learn day and night is what the father is projecting onto his daughter. Maybe what she needs is a boy who learns well, but is more family-oriented and will want to spend more time with her and their children. Maybe the boy does not really care if the girl has no family money. Maybe he doesn’t care if she is not a size 2. And so on. Every shidduch that has ever been suggested to me for my kids, even when I was absolutely certain it would not be for them, I always ran it by them before saying no. Many times they agreed with me, but soemtimes they did not. At least they gave the guy a chance.

    #652052

    shkoyach
    Member

    MrsB… on the one hand you are so right. Parents really can see from a different perspective and have more life experience and can therefore do a better time (sometimes) by using their judgement for their child’s shidduchim.

    HOWEVER… unfortunately many parents are still “childish” despite their age and dont do much good when they are only looking for fortune and fame for their children (which is not everybody but does well exist.) I spoke to one mother regarding a shidduch for her son and she is known for negaing almost every girl that came up for her son so ppl were giving up. It just so happens that she wasnt looking for fortune or fame at all but claimed she knew exactly what her son needed and he went bazerks while all his friends got engaged married having kids etc and he hadnt even gone on a date. Another case of a mother being so picky who now has many older children and nobody interested in the family anymore cuz nobody could get through. It is very important to discuss with your child what they are looking for and what you think would be good for them and then deal with the shidduchim. Of course you neeed to be somewhat picky to pick out a suitable match for your specific child but RABBOSAI… dont turn down a good shidduch for a stupid reason that may not bother your child after all!!!

    #652053

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Why is an 18 year old girl who is too immature to know what kind of man she wants to marry looking to get married?

    #652054

    Joseph
    Participant

    Because Pirkei Avos says Shemoneh Esrei L’Chupa (see also Rambam, Hilchos Ishus 15:28; Tur and Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer, beginning of perek 1. see also Shulchan Aruch, Admur HaZakein, Hilchos Talmud Torah perek 1, Kuntres Acharon I.) And Rav Chisda says that marriage at an early age leads to superior spiritual qualities and freedom from aveira (Kiddushin 29b). The Gemora says a young man who isn’t married by 18 “Hashem waits for him until he’s twenty, and if he’s not married by 20, then Hashem says “blast his bones.”

    #652055

    mariner
    Member

    Mrs. Beautiful: i am sorry to tellyou, but halacha is punfarket. when it come to get getting married, a parents input is just that, input. they have no halachic authority to say yes or no to a shidduch, unless given that authority by said child. also, you say that at 18 the person is to immature to decide what he or she wants, well then they should not be getting married! the truth is, parents should be as involved as little as possible, which leads to a much better dating experience. myself and friends of mine who did the checking up, and setting up on t their own, with ADVICE from their parents had a much less aggravating dating experience, even the ones who dated for years. parents, when it comes to dating, are way to problem causing. they are close to fifty percent of the shidduch crisis, the other also less then half is people being way too picky in their earlier years. (this leaves a few percent for people who seriously just have no mazel, or that they are destined to marry later in life).

    #652056

    I think these cases spoken about are few and far in between. Any parent will tell u ow they only want the best for their child. Dont forget that your parents also got married, and they are married for at least 18yrs. shouldnt that give them enough experience to know what to look for in a marriage partner for their beloved children.

    lesschumras, 18 year olds have minds of 18yr olds, that means their experience is schoool, maybe a job, maybe ocassional babysitting, and their imagination cannot stretch far enough to know exactly what they need in terms of a successful marriage. Parents, with their loads of experience, love, and years behind them can properly undersatnd what a spouse should be. I think this is so logical.

    #652057

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph,

    And that is why there are so many 20 year old divorcees. A ketubah doesn’t make you mature enough for marriage. What you cited was not halacha; you are not required to marry before 20 years of age. Besides, I thought you don’t issue piskei halacha?

    #652058

    oomis
    Participant

    Nowadays, 18 year old kids are very different from the 18 year olds of long ago. Our kids do not get up at the crack of dawn to milk cows, feed chickens, and help run a household ALL BEFORE going to shul, to school, to work in the fields, whatever. Our kdis are pampered and coddled from the earliest ages, and they are not the same young men and women who were forced to mature at a much earlier age. For the most part, NONE of them demonstrates a readiness to take on the responsibilities of marriage and a family, at age 18 IMO.

    #652059

    Joseph
    Participant

    lesschumras, I just referred you to Pirkei Avos, the Gemora, Rambam, Tur, Shulchan Aruch and Even HaEzer.

    #652060

    tzippi
    Member

    Re Joseph: I can name scores of gedolim over the past few centuries (especially the last 100 years) who were older than 20 when they married. Can you reconcile this? Thanks.

    #652061

    Joseph
    Participant

    tzippi, far dritten ul, I just referred to the aforementioned Mishna’s, Gemora’s, Shulchan Orach, etc. For practical questions, please refer to YOUR LOR.

    #652063

    Joseph
    Participant

    Again, lesschumras asked why so many people in Klal Yisroel seek to marry young. I explained that this praiseworthy approach has been the barometer in Klal Yisroel for time immemorial. I referred him to the aforementioned meforshim, etc. to explain this. I am not saying he must necessarily marry his children at 18. Ask your LOR.

    #652064

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph,

    That was not my question. My question was ” Why is an 18 year old girl who is too immature to know what kind of man she wants to marry looking to get married? ” If the girl was mature, then fine. That is the reason why you cannot be a posek. You cannot apply a principle like a blanket to all people. This girl, and others like her who have no clue about the responsibilities and stresses that married life brings, is not ready for marriage at that young of an age.

    #652065

    mw13
    Participant

    while in theory i’d agree with joseph that the younger, the better, this is only when the boy/girl is totally mature, knows what to look for, has real plans for when after they get married, etc, etc, etc. seeing as most young people today don’t fit all (or any!) of the criteria, i’d agree with lesschumras. besides, people can change alot from 18 to 21, and you want to know what you’re getting.

    #652066

    halavai
    Member

    mariner has it spot on. Of course, parents know more, and understand about marriage, but they are no more objective than their children. Unfortunately, many parents conflate “best for my child” with “my own unfulfilled dreams”. True, if a parent sees certain red flags that the child is blind to, they must step in and prevent disaster. But the girl’s dress size, or the boy’s only-average learning capabilities are not red flags requiring such intervention. If you don’t think your child is capable of making a mature decision about who to marry, then they are not ready for shidduchim, period.

    #652067

    I honestly wonder how many of these posters are married with children. Some of these comments sound immature and that is why I reiterate that 18 year olds NEED their parents wise and experienced advice when it comes to such a major life decision. I dont think anyone married with children will challenge me on that.

    #652068

    oomis
    Participant

    I am married with seven children (including the two who married my son and daughter). I think I am fairly well-qualified to make the statement that while chidlren need their parents’ input and advice, not everything that comes out of a parent’s mouth is wisdom, objective, or good for that particular child. There are an awful lot of immature, arrogant, controlling parents out there, along with the sagacious, sensitive, and loving ones who want the objective best for their child’s happiness. I didn’t see many immature comments here, and the notion that an 18 year old is truly ready for marriage and knows what he or she is getting into, is ridiculous in today’s world. yes, SOME may be – – but most are immature and unrealistic and have had their minds filled with a great deal of idealistic information that can potentially backfire when the real world encroaches on them and bills come due. When a little girl plays with dolls, she has no idea what taking care of a real live baby entails, much less baby after baby. Mrs. Beautiful, maybe you are the exception, but too many parents do NOT have their children’s best interests at heart, but their OWN. They just put the spin on it that they are only thinking of their children. Why do you think so many of our young people are getting divorced nowadays, sometimes after less than a year of marriage?

    #652069

    oomis1105, I wouldn’t blame the the statistics of divorces on the parents.

    I am not saying parents do EVERYTHING. Obviously the boy and girl make the final decision. However, just keep in mind that parents have the best in mind for their children, NO parent wants to see their child suffering or unhappy.

    #652070

    while getting married young is a good thing, you definitely need a parents input on any shidduch.

    #652072

    shkoyach
    Member

    Well mariner,

    It may have made your experiences more pleasant while you did the work not your parents, but has it worked in getting you married?? If so then great but i not maybe you should have your parents more involved. The truth is thougit really depens on the age situation back ground of each person looking for a shidduch and no blanket can be stated if parents should or shouldnt take the lead.

    Parents need to be their to guide their child in shidduchim but again they must not have alterior motives and must be clear on wht their son/ daughter needs and be there to help them understand their dating experiences. Sometimes parents just get a good or bad feeling abt it all and many times there is mamashus to this but not always so again… it all has to be balanced out. Thats just about e/t in life… it gotta be balanced out with a few exceptions of course

    #652073

    oomis
    Participant

    Mrs. B. I truly understand the point you make, but you are also obviously a very wonderful and loving mother. Of course no parents would ever THINK they want less than the best for their children, but the reality is that their concept of what is best is not always what is objectively best, and definitely not always what their children truly need. I do see your side, though.

    #652074

    I got married young(just turned 19) and am BH HAPPILY married for over 2 yrs k”h. I was always mature and marriage minded- the parents have to know their individual child. I just want to clarify some of the thoughtless comments- the reason that so many 20 year olds and young couples are divorcing is due to issues which were never addressed – be it unmedicated mental illness or a character flaw such as abuse. These are ligitiamte grounds for divorce whether the couple marrying is 20 or 200. No one should have to suffer in an abusive marriage. since i am in the age bracket of all the “young” divorcees, i know many personally and have never heard that they got divorced due to imaturity on the part of either spouse.

    #652075

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    Hey if a girl is mature enough to be married, she’s mature enough to have say in who she marries. True, not all girls are old enough to get married, but that’s a seperate issue. And yes, all parents want good husbands for their daughters. But there’s more to life than middos and learning (and no, I’m not compromising on that either!)

    #652077

    The Big One
    Participant

    “But there’s more to life than middos and learning”

    Actually, those are the two ikkurs in life.

    #652078

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    I know. That’s why I specified that I’m not compromising on that either. But what do parents want? Middos. Someone who will take care of their daughter. Any normal person wants that. And yes, parent can sometimes see things young girls can’t. But realistically speaking: who goes on the date? who REALLY gets to know the guy? and whose life is it anyway?

    #652079

    It takes a different type of maturity to decide who you will marry and to make a marriage work. You CAN’T say “Since I am old enough to get married I can decide who I will marry.”

    Derech ha’olam is that young people get married and they stay married. This is the way of the world. Once you are married you gain a certain maturity through shana rishona, then through having children… and with middos tovos u BUILD your home. The ultimate maturity of marriage doesn’t happen in 2- 3 weeks like a shidduch might.

    It is also derech Ha’olam that children listen to parents. It is a new thing that 18 yr olds are looking to marry themselves off. For THIS life decision, they may not yet be mature enough.

    Thank your parents for their love and guidence. Don’t feel too haughty to accept their sage advice.

    If you REALLY feel that your parents don’t have ur best in mind (hard to believe), Speak to a Rav or to a mentor for guidence but, girls/boys, don’t fool yourself into making such a major decision on ur own.

    #652080

    lesschumras
    Participant

    to chasid of hashem,

    If ” the reason that so many 20 year olds and young couples are divorcing is due to issues which were never addressed – be it unmedicated mental illness or a character flaw such as abuse ” , if the father was an abuser, and the mother stayed with him, is she a person whose judgement you’d want an 18-year girl to follow?

    #652081

    jphone
    Member

    “Dating parent or girls?”

    I suppose part of thee equation has to be, how much of their money are you looking for?

    #652082

    lesschumras-

    That the mother stayed in an abusive relationship is her perogative- the circumstances may have been beyond her controll. that said:

    1 – children with messed up family situations do go on to maintain successful marriages

    2- maybe such a mother will be able to pick up on red flags -more so than a lay person (the child, another adult etc.)

    3-in such situations professional help is a must.That doesnt mean that all of a sudden a child’s mother has zero judgement when it comes time to shidduchim!

    so yes, i do think that such a woman’s judgement is valuable for her 18 year old.

    #652084

    heimesheyid
    Member

    I think this whole forum boils down to the type u r. R u chassidish then ur parents do a most of the legwork. In the Litvishe world, parents have minimum say to their children’s shidduchim.

    Interstingly enough though, Dr. Yael Respler, who is not chassidish, constantly praises the chassidishe method of dating, and encourages Litvishe to encorprate this method as well.

    For those of u that dont know Dr. Yael, she deals with hundreds of marriage/divorce counselings. so I would venture to say she has LOADS of experience.

    #652085

    oomis
    Participant

    In the Litvishe world, parents have minimum say to their children’s shidduchim

    Do you mean that the Litvish parents do not accept or reject shidduchim for their kids?

    #652086

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    mrs. beautiful:

    first of all, rav wolbe says that there is one thing in life that no one can tell you what to do. parents or rabbis can not instuct anyone on who they should marry. so that whole bit about listening to parents doesn’t apply when it comes to marriage.

    now, i understand that parents can help guide their children. but i must say they are not always right. and i respect rabbonim greatly but they don’t always know YOU. i broke off a shidduch on my own despite the fact that my mother thought i was insane. and i spoke to a very chashuv rav (widely known but i think i shouldn’t post his name) three times. all three times he disregarded my concerns and told me to go ahead with the shidduch. should i have listened? maybe. i would’ve had a good marriage. but i know myself well (maybe too well!) and i felt it wasn’t right. besides, how much responsibility do you actually want to hold for your children’s marriages?!

    #652088

    Will Hill
    Participant

    brooklyn, did you ask him mechila for breaking it? its a very serious thing.

    #652089

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    no i wasn’t officially engaged so i believe i didn’t have to. anyway now that he’s married i’m POSITIVE i made the right decision.

    #652092

    Brooklyn19, On the onset I sympathize with u that u had a broken engagement, may u find ur bashert soon. If u read my previous comments, i noted that obviously parents do not have the final say. Once the girl and boy meet they have to decide if they want to get engaged. However remeber that since ur parents love you and have ur best intrest in mind, I do encourage MAXIMUM parental guidence in WHO u will meet, and once u meet, i encourage discussing the conversations with a parent (or mentor, teacher…). It’s wrong to say “Our conversations were too private.” U’ll have ur private conversations after u get married, and those no one will ever ask u to share. While u r dating and getting ready to make life’s biggest decision, u need advice, guidence from someone experienced. A single bachur once told my husband that all of his friends ask him advice while they are dating. I thought that was outragious! Dating is a private thing u discuss with someone experienced, married etc.. To go and say “I got my friends’ Haskama so now i am ok…” The guidence u should be getting is preferably from ur parents, if they are discfunctional etc. then find a trusted adult.

    As a side point about speaking to a Rav:

    1) Do u realize that a Rav has no alterior motive when he tells u to go ahead with or to stay in a shidduch? I know of plenty of Rabanim ,teachers that have told girls “Based on what u r saying, this is not for u.”

    2) My close friend was once having a Shalom Bayis issue that I was helping her through. At one point I suggested she present a certain delicate question (not halachic) to a Rav. She agreed. But I prewarned her, once u decide to speak to a rav, u have to follow his Psak. If u are not ready to listen to him then u r not ready to speak to a Rav.

    #652093

    Brooklyn19, Antoher thing. U mentioned “besides, how much responsibility do you actually want to hold for your children’s marriages?! “

    Once u decide that u r ready to become a parent there are MANY MAJOR responsibilities u accept on yourself. Your child’s health, chinuch, well being, self asteem. Any caring parent sees loads of responsibilities with each child. It is for this reason that through parenting years we daven so much, we beg Hashme for Siyata Dishmaya in making the right decisions throughout every step. Deciding schools, sometimes switching classes..it’s endless. And one thing we constantly daven, for our children’s shidduchim. We guide our children, and we daven endlessly. Just like the Kallah fasts on the day of the wedding, many mothers do too. They feel that they themselves are walking down the Chuppah.

    BTW, once u get married, tell ur parents how happy u r. Share the nachas with them.

    #652094

    tzippi
    Member

    Mrs. Beautiful, if you find yourself giving such guidance to a friend again, please suggest that she not ask a shaila, which is binding, but for an eitza, which is not. Especially since for a shalom bayis issue there is another party involved, and depending on the issue, would have to be with the program too.

    I just wanted to add that I appreciate how you think and speak from the heart. I don’t know if we’re on the same page on everything but we may well be on the same chapter 😉

    #652095

    000646
    Participant

    Rabbonim and parents can make mistakes when giving an eitza just like any other human being, it has nothing to do with alterior motives.

    #652096

    Joseph
    Participant

    000, and you can make an even bigger mistake deciding who to marry.

    #652097

    000646
    Participant

    Joseph

    How can it be a bigger mistake if you make it yourself then if you marry the wrong person because a rav told you to?

    #652098

    The Big One
    Participant

    646: Cause you are a lot more likely to err than a Rav is.

    #652099

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    not necessarily. a rav doesn’t always know you like you know yourself.

    #652100

    oomis
    Participant

    “Just like the Kallah fasts on the day of the wedding, many mothers do too.”

    I have never heard of this in my life. The chosson and kallah fast because this day is like Yom Kippur for them. But the MOTHERS??? New one on me….

    #652101

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    i guess they’re petrified cuz they controlled the situation and are responsible for this marriage… if it doesn’t work they got their daughters into hot water so they’re begging for rachamim from hashem…

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