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  • #1280800

    bmyer
    Participant

    If you were a 18-19 year old girl who just started dating would you date a 20 year-old bocher?

    If you were a 22 year old girl who’s been dating for 2-3 years would you date a 20 year-old bocher?

    #1280816

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yes to both.

    #1280857

    kj chusid
    Participant

    Starting at 20 is pretty late, up to 80 years ago everyone was married at 18 or younger

    #1280873

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Nobody said the 20 year old was just starting.
    And nuh uh.

    #1280889

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    This isn’t 80 years ago and no one is asking for advice for their grandparents or great grandparents,

    Everyone was NOT married at 18 back then.
    My parents were married 79 years ago, he was 22, she was 21 .
    My paternal grandparents were married in 1919, he was 24, she was 20>>>they waited until he returned from the US army, drafted to serve in WWI
    My maternal grandparents were married in 1920, he was 24, she was 20>>>they waited until he finished medical school.

    All of these marriages took place in NYC, all of these people were born in NY.
    The last marriage in our family that had a chasan or kallah 18 years or less occurred in 1856 in Suwalki…they left for America in 1872.

    #1280972

    Meno
    Participant

    Uch not this again.

    Someone should just make a table of ages which are appropriate to date/marry each other and sticky it to the front of the CR.

    #1281043

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There is no “appropriate” age…its whatever the young man and woman decide its right for them. As more of our young men and women realize the need to obtain the needed education and job skills to earn a parnassah its inevitable that the age of kiddushin will move into the early 20s or later. Some may want to learn and go to college part-time so it will take several years longer to graduate college and finish an advanced degree.

    #1281054

    Joseph
    Participant

    Some of the finest families I know are with parents who married by 18 or 19.

    #1281059

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    MOST of the divorce cases I’ve handled in the past 40 or so years have been couples who married as teenagers and then grew up and apart.
    Both Jews and Gentiles, Religious and non

    #1281077

    Joseph
    Participant

    In very religious Jewish circles the reality is that those who married youngest have some of the lowest divorce rates. Especially compared to those who married after completing a higher education.

    #1281080

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There will always be some who try to rationalize children marrying children so they can rush to have more children. If thats there hashkafah, thats fine but as CT Lawyer and others have noted, all the empirical studies that have been done, including those of the heimish tzibur here in the U.S. and Chareidi tzibur in EY, the divorce rates are materially higher for those who marry in the 16-19 age bracket versus those who waited a few years. Yes, its legal, but so is marrying your first cousin in 7 states and it doesn’t make it “right”.

    #1281090

    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s factually incorrect. The frum communities with the lowest marriage age averages also have the lowest divorce rates.

    And very many Yidden have been happily and successfully marrying their first cousins from the time of Har Sinai through the current times of golus America.

    #1281133

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Liar. You have no idea if you would.

    #1281174

    Yes, its legal, but so is marrying your first cousin in 7 states and it doesn’t make it “right”.

    It seems that the Torah is not where you get your ideas of right and wrong from…

    #1281226

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Unfortunately, marrying a close relative greatly raises the chance of offspring with mental and/or physical defects.

    #1281366

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Why in the world not?” to both.

    #1281367

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Just about every medical professional would advise against marrying a first cousin; yes, there are many thingks that are allowed under daas torah but that doesn’t mean you are obligated to do them. The torah allows a number of punishments including stoning for a variety of “crimes’ (putting aside whether or not we have a Sanhedrim), allows for taking multiple wives (putting aside Rav Gershhon’s thoughts on the issue), etc. etc. Just because something is allowed by either Torah or civil law doesn’t mean its a good idea in the context of modern society and norms. I’m sure Joseph may feel its a great idea (and he can find a rav to give him a heter) to marry his 15 YO first cousin but that doesn’t mean 99.9 percent of yidden today would do so.

    #1281411

    zaltzvasser
    Participant

    Many people hold by Rabi Yehuda HaChassid and don’t marry first cousins. +1 gadolhadorah

    #1281396

    Joseph
    Participant

    Marrying first cousins is very far from being uncommon in very many frum communities. Many great rabbonim, both today and yesteryear, are themselves married to their first cousin.

    And the Sanhedrin when they were around, in fact, did stone for the crimes the Torah says to. And Teimanim, even today, have multiple wives.

    #1281397

    Joseph
    Participant

    They author of that quote has a long history of saying things against the Torah.

    #1281426

    Joseph
    Participant

    Many people hold by the Arizal and don’t shave or take haircuts for all 49 days of the Omer. Others hold otherwise and shave quicker than a full 49 days.

    No one’s forcing anyone to marry their first cousin and no one’s stopping anyone from marrying their first cousin.

    #1281553

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Many people hold by Rabi Yehuda HaChassid and don’t marry first cousins

    Are those two separate statements? Because I don’t think R’ Yehuda Hachassid wrote about cousins.

    #1281754

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I was wondering about that as well. I also didn’t think that R’ Yehuda HaChassid wrote about cousins.

    I can’t say for sure since he has a long list and I haven’t memorized it, but I certainly have never heard anyone say that they are opposed to marrying cousins for that reason, even though I have often heard people say that they won’t do other things because of his takanos.

    There are a lot of people who refrain from marrying first cousins, but the reasons I generally hear are either genetic or weirdnes (and in at least one case this was from someone who is makpid on some of the takanos of R’ Yehuda HaChassid, yet didn’t mention it as a reason not to marry a first cousin).

    #1281757

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Personally, I think one of the reasons people are against marrying cousins is because they want their kids to grow up relating to their cousins as brothers and sisters, and once they do that, they can’t be a possible marriage partner.

    #1281926

    Joseph
    Participant

    Halachically, first cousins are permitted to marry each other, hence they have all the regular Dinei Rrvah and then some. Even HaEzer Siman chuf-beis states that relatives have the din of “Libo Gas Bo”, meaning there are some hateiri of Yichud that while applicable in most cases are not applicable for cousins, who have more restrictions than normal. Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 22:8) and the Aruch Hashulchan (E.H. 22:6) present examples of a man and a woman who grew up together or are related – such as cousins.

    #1282121

    mw13
    Participant

    GH:
    all the empirical studies that have been done, including those of the heimish tzibur here in the U.S. and Chareidi tzibur in EY, the divorce rates are materially higher for those who marry in the 16-19 age

    Joseph:
    That’s factually incorrect. The frum communities with the lowest marriage age averages also have the lowest divorce rates.

    Can either one of you cite which studies you got these supposed facts from?

    #1282165

    bmyer
    Participant

    The other thread is asking parents this is asking the girl…would you let yourself but not your kid…?

    #1282183

    mw13
    Participant

    The torah allows a number of punishments including stoning for a variety of “crimes’ (putting aside whether or not we have a Sanhedrim)

    To set the record straight, the Torah does not “allow” stoning. In certain cases the Torah *mandates* stoning for the violation of certain cardinal laws with eidim, hasrah, and the Sanhedrin. And conversely, if any of those criteria are not fulfilled, the Torah *prohibits* stoning.

    In no case is stoning a reshus, left to one’s own preferences.

    #1282201

    zaltzvasser
    Participant

    <p style=”padding-left: 30px”>I’m pretty sure it was Rabi Yehuda HaChassid- either way, there was a famous Rabi Yehuda Ha______ who wrote a famous tzava’ah that many people hold by. One of the things he wrote (I think- couldn’t find a source) was not to marry first cousins.
    Anyway, we’ve been through this before.
    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/cousins-marrying

    #1282224

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Nieces, not cousins.

    #1282228

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Whether or not you marry your cousin is between you and your cousin.

    #1282234

    Joseph
    Participant

    I couldn’t agree with you more.

    #1288525

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Aha! Just listened to a TorahAnytime shiur and the rabbi gave another reason why kids were married off early!

    Because if you don’t do it now then the next pogrom may come in and leave you broke and unable to marry off your kids!

    At least in East Europe, it happened before when someone [insert Rabbi’s name] saved up for his kid’s wedding and then the pogrom hit and then he couldn’t afford it.

    He wasn’t saying that this had anything to do with halacha, but I thought that this was an excellent point for this thread.

    ——
    See Rabbi Yosef Viener on TorahAnytime:
    Hilchot Kibbud Av V’Em: Part 14 – Marriage Choice and Parents Part 2 ☺

    #1288661

    chabadgal
    Participant

    Another reason- for arab countries- they would get engaged REALLY young (like under ten, maybe under five) because if they weren’t married they might be forced to marry a muslim for example the orphan law

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