Does Torah Support the Existence of a State?

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  • #1461977

    Ax
    Participant

    I am by no means an experienced scholar, but this question came to my mind.

    Does the Torah Support the Existence of a State?
    I understand that there can only be one legitimate legal system: that which is described in the Torah, which could only be justly established with direct divine involvement (a temple being built). That means that no other institution could have any legitimacy- which means that the best legal solution for times without the divine temple would be an absence of a state.

    I even have biblical proof: The only biblical time without a legal system was during the times of Samuel, when there was an anarchy and some independent courts, and it was a free country. Naturally, the nation was upset about their situation (for bizarre reasons) and wanted an authority and a state. Samuel noticed this, and warned the nation that any establishment of a state would end in an oppressive regime. Although he ended up cooperating with the nation’s interests, his predictions eventually came true with the kingdom eventually being run by corrupt dictatorship.

    #1462234

    Ax
    Participant

    According to the Bible, the ancient Hebrews lived in an anarcho-capitalist society until the rise of King Saul. Judges 17:6 and 21:25 says that ”In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.” Society was organized by a network of democratically chosen judges, and law enforcement officials to enforce the verdict of the judges. All of this was apparently paid for voluntarily, and apparently out of religious conviction (Deuteronomy 16:18). There was no need for a legislature, since the judiciary was guided by Biblical law. Property rights were respected (“Thou shalt not steal”), however, it was still not a non-aggression society, as you could be executed for things like idolatry and adultery.
    Society was organized in this way until a civil war between the Israelites, which nearly exterminated the tribe of Benjamin. The result of this was that the Hebrews chose a king for themselves, King Saul. Jewish kings had heavy restrictions on their power (Deuteronomy 17:14-20), but there was no one to enforce the rules for them to follow (King Solomon violated all of them). Society continues this way until the Jewish kingdom was destroyed by Babylonian emperor Nebuchadnezzar, Jews were exiled, and taken into Babylonian captivity.

    #1462243

    Samantha101
    Participant

    No. In fact, it says in the torah that Jews should not return to EY until mashiach. the government is secular and but we must have appreciation to them.

    #1462250

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I got this feeling this post was made by a christian, Frum people dont talk this way

    #1462358

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    I agree ZD, use of the words “bible” , “Hebrews”, referring to the Malchus as a corrupt dictatorship, not differentiating between Shaul Hemelech’s reign and Beis Dovid, leaving Hashem’s choice of the melech totally out of the picture- none of this is exactly Yeshivish shproch. No wonder why this thread was in moderation for so long.

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