Dying Al Kiddush Hashem

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  • #604170

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Someone please explain this to me.

    How is it that someone that ate treif, was michalel Shabbos, doesn’t believe in the Torah gets olam haba if he dies Al Kiddush Hashem? (you know what I’m referring to)

    #886309

    mdd
    Member

    His violent death provides a full or a partial kaporah for him.

    #886310

    choppy
    Participant

    If he doesn’t believe in the Torah, however he died it wasn’t Al Kiddush Hashem.

    #886311

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I was in a group that asked about this to Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky right after the Dolphinarium bombing. He said that’s how it is.

    I agree with the question though.

    #886312

    pcoz
    Member

    The passuk says – atem eydai – you are My witnesses.

    This means that as the chosen people, we very often do not do what we are meant to do, but still kol yisroel yesh lahem chelek leolam haba becuase the purpose of our existence transcends the limits of olam hazeh.

    If someone dies becuase they are Jewish, that means they have left an indelible marker in history that there was such a thing as a Jew.

    #886313

    147
    Participant

    When Rav Meir Kahane HY’D was assassinated, I heard from Rav Avigdor Miller ZTKLLH’H, that Rav Meir Kahane HY’D is destined straight for Gan Eden, because he died “Because he was a Jew”.

    #886314

    Kozov
    Member

    Why should a person who its very likely never got the opportunity to become aware that there’s anything wrong with the above, and is surely filled with Mitzvos, not get Olam Haba, and who died with so much bizayon (like mdd said, see Sanhedrin 47A)? Tfila for them and giving Tzdaka also helps.

    #886315

    mdd
    Member

    Kozov, I am sorry I did not understand your question.

    #886316

    mosheemes2
    Member

    Let’s say there was someone who was pretty obnoxious to you, not just unfriendly, but for reasons you never quite understood, was mean every single time you dealt with him, although not in ways that caused you any real lasting pain because the guy was just kind of harmless. One day, on his way to work, he tramples through your garden, as he does every day even though you’ve frequently asked him not to, and someone, who actively hates you and/or anyone associated with you, sees him and assuming only a friend of yours would be walking through your lawn, shoots him, killing him instantly.

    I suspect, that 1. You’d be willing to forgive much of the obnoxious guys previous behavior, on account of the horrible way he dies, and 2. You’d feel a sense of closeness to the guy who died just because of his connection to you.

    L’Havdil, but also really all the more so in the cases he unfortunately hear about.

    #886317

    Sam2
    Participant

    Mdd: No question. He was supporting you by asking a rheotrical question.

    #886318

    cholent guy
    Participant

    Choppy: Are you saying that those who died the Holocaust who were not religious, or those of the Munich Massacre, Entebbe, the recent attack in Bulgaria, Mr. Pearl, or all those who died because they were Jewish did not die Al Kiddush Hashem? Explain yourself.

    #886319

    Naftush
    Member

    Coffee addict, I thought Beit Din Shel Ma’ala made those decisions. Wrong again! Instead, “we” should take over from Beit Din Shel Ma’ala and rule against people who can no longer testify about what they ate, did on Shabbat, and believed or didn’t believe about the Torah — and on this basis bar them from olam haba.

    #886320

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Check sefer Vayikro and the death of Nodov Ve-avihu- inspite of the possuk saying they died because of ‘aish zoroh”, Moshe rabbeinu said’ :”Bikrovay ekodesh”. if it is good enough for Moshe rasbbeinu , it is good enough for me.

    #886321

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Choppy, I respectfully suggest that a) you don’t know what you are talking about, and b) your perspective goes against that of gedolim from all streams, and c) you are unfamiliar with the concept of tinok shenishba, and d) you are irresponsibly arrogating for yourself the certainty of knowing who will get in to gan eiden and e) thats enough for now. unbelievable!

    #886322

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Mosheemes explained it beautifully. There is no question anymore. The only question which remains is why this or that person was Zoche? This type of question, however, is not the kind that will get, nor deserves, an answer.

    Harugei Beitar, who’s Frumkeit I’m not sure about (they killed Reb Elazar Hamoda’i), died in a battle that they fought for nationalistic reasons. And yet, Chazal tell us that nobody can approaach their spot.

    The Gemara says that one who gives Tzaddaka so that his son should live, is a Tzaddik Gamur. The Maharal explains, besides his other Pshat, that asking for a Yid to live is actually Ratzon Hashem. That in itself is a Mitzva. Like I mentioned in the other thread, it is a Kiddush Hashem when Jews have a Yeshua and when things go well. Therefore, those who die for the cause of Jewish people have died for Hashem, Who’s name is tied to us.

    #886323

    choppy
    Participant

    You actually think that a rasha mrusha and apikorus gomur, from the beginning of his life until his dying breath. who is killed because he is Jewish, is going to Gan Eden?

    #886324

    Naftush
    Member

    Yichusdik, well said. Two additional concepts worth remembering are yissurim mekhaprim and mita mekhaperet. On these grounds, if it’s our decision to make, every such casualty goes straight to gan eden as a kadosh.

    #886325

    mdd
    Member

    Naftush, there are ofene sugyos about these things. Do not delegate it to the Beis din shel ma’alah. Yichusdic, the person’s kavonah makes a difference as to how much kaporah he gets.

    #886326

    mdd
    Member

    rabbiofberlin, the rayah is not good.Do not compare their shogeg to other people’s meizid.

    #886327

    Kozov
    Member

    “You actually think that a rasha mrusha and apikorus gomur, from the beginning of his life until his dying breath. who is killed because he is Jewish, is going to Gan Eden?”

    Do you actually think this is what we are dealing with here?

    And in answer to your question, eventually, yes.

    #886328

    Sam2
    Participant

    Mdd: Why do you say they were Shogeg?

    #886329

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    choppy- in answer to your question- YES~! dying for the jewish people makes them kedoshim.

    mdd- all i said was that- in spite of the possuk telling us that nodov ve-avihu died for their sins (see Baal Haturim and other meforshim) Moshe Rabbeinu called them kedoshim (bikroiva EKODESH) what is good for Moshe Rabbeinu is good for me. You can probably find other situations where people with sins die al kiddush hashem

    #886330

    pcoz
    Member

    Choppy – Rabbi Mordechai Miller of Gateshead said if a person was pulled away from bowing before the altar in a church because the Nazis found out his grandmother was Jewish and they killed him for being Jewish while he is protesting that he is not, he is going straight to olam haba

    #886331

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Choppy, learn the first mishna in the eleventh perek of sanhedrin. There are only 7 people (6, if you count King Menashe’s tshuva) who don’t rate any chelek. That’s it. You want to argue with the Tanna Kama? be my guest.

    #886332

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    His violent death provides a full or a partial kaporah for him.

    if it’s a partial kaporah he/she should still get Gehenom, secondly why is that, there was no Teshuva?

    If he doesn’t believe in the Torah, however he died it wasn’t Al Kiddush Hashem.

    Choppy, do you have a mekor, besides one made up

    If someone dies becuase they are Jewish, that means they have left an indelible marker in history that there was such a thing as a Jew.

    this answer makes sense

    Coffee addict, I thought Beit Din Shel Ma’ala made those decisions. Wrong again! Instead, “we” should take over from Beit Din Shel Ma’ala and rule against people who can no longer testify about what they ate, did on Shabbat, and believed or didn’t believe about the Torah — and on this basis bar them from olam haba.

    Naftush, I’m not ruling out anything, I’m just saying it sounds like a goyish zach (getting olam haba for believing in Yoshko, or for what the Arabs do

    Check sefer Vayikro and the death of Nodov Ve-avihu- inspite of the possuk saying they died because of ‘aish zoroh”, Moshe rabbeinu said’ :”Bikrovay ekodesh”. if it is good enough for Moshe rasbbeinu , it is good enough for me.

    Nadav and Avihu weren’t living their life like a frei yid

    #886333

    oomis
    Participant

    Do we not have the belief that a Jew who dies SOLELY because he is a JEW, no matter how far removed he may have been, might have done teshuvah with his last breath, and therefore merits Olam haba? In any case, it is for Hashem to decide, not us.

    #886334

    pcoz
    Member

    Whether you get olam habah does not depend on your personal zechuyos as per fourth comment on this thread

    #886335

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Do we not have the belief that a Jew who dies SOLELY because he is a JEW, no matter how far removed he may have been, might have done teshuvah with his last breath, and therefore merits Olam haba? In any case, it is for Hashem to decide, not us.

    you’re saying MIGHT have done teshuva therefore he DEFENITELY gets Olam Haba

    #886336

    choppy
    Participant

    I indicated that a rasha mrusha apikorus gamur who is killed for being Jewish while maintaining his heretical beliefs and evil behavior unto his dying breath, is not going straight into Gan Eden. That’s all I indicated.

    A person who was a rasha his entire life and who dies naturally at a ripe old age, can also eventually get into Gan Eden. But that wasn’t what I (or the discussion) was talking about.

    #886337

    pcoz
    Member

    “a rasha mrusha apikorus gamur who is killed for being Jewish while maintaining his heretical beliefs and evil behavior unto his dying breath, is not going straight into Gan Eden” – respectfully disagree

    #886338

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I indicated that a rasha mrusha apikorus gamur who is killed for being Jewish while maintaining his heretical beliefs and evil behavior unto his dying breath, is not going straight into Gan Eden. That’s all I indicated.

    choppy is right, the reason being is because he is considered not Jewish anymore, so much so that his wine is treif

    #886339

    Kozov
    Member

    Not every post here was talkng about going straight to Olam Haba. You (and everybody else who was talking about that) should have specified.

    #886340

    Naftush
    Member

    Choppy, I didn’t argue that a rasha mrusha and an apikorus gomur goes straight to Gan Eden. I argued that the decision is made by Beit Din Shel Ma’ala because only it can make this ruling on the basis of fact.

    #886341

    mdd
    Member

    O.K.Sam2, I do not think they meant to do an aveirah. They had some heter in their minds.

    HaLevi, you mixed up the Gemoras. There is a Gemorah that says about two people who volunteered to die to save Klal Yisroel that “no creature can approach their place”. It does not say it about the harugei Beitar.

    Yichusdic, the mishnah talks about famous Tanach people.There could be others.

    Coffee addict,Gemorah says he gets kaporah. I guess, issurim mechaprim. On the other hand, we say kaddish for him. It follows that not always such a person goes straight to Gan Eden. If he did not have the right kavonos, it for sure makes sense.

    #886342

    mdd
    Member

    Oomis, we do not assume about a rasha that he did teshuvah. Just the mere fact of his violent death brings him, at least, a partial kaporah.

    #886343

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    MDD, you’re right. It says Harugei Malchus, not Harugei Beitar. (BB 10b)

    Actually, Sefer Chassidim says that even by the real, original, Kiddush Hashem, there are levels. He says that when someone allows himself to die rather than transgress one of the Shalosh Aveios Chamuros, while thinking how good this will be for his family, won’t be getting the full S’char.

    Obviously, you would say there should be a difference between someone who willingly died to sanctify Hashem’s name, and one who got killed. Nevertheless, they are called Kedoshim.

    #886345

    Sam2
    Participant

    Mdd: Omer Muttar is Korov L’meizid.

    And Kaddish isn’t a Ray’ah. We say Kaddish for everyone. R’ Elyashiv’s kids are saying Kaddish for him. Do you think he really needs it?

    #886346

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    mdd=in reference to nodov ve-avihu- the meforshim (and the medrosh)speculate about other “sins”- and it is not relevant that they were gedolei ysroel (to coffee addict). My point was simple: Moshe Rabbeinu did not speculate about the sins of Nodov Ve-avihu- he plainy accepted the fact that they were the “kedoshim” that HKBH meant to sanctify for klal yisroel. Why not follow Moshe rabbeinu’s derech and accept that , whenever a jew dies by an unatural act, HKBH wanted them as kedoshim? Do you have doubt that the six millionm jews- who died solely because they were jews,are NOT kedoshim? Preposterous.

    #886347

    mdd
    Member

    Sam2,”Behold, in his holy ones He believes not…” — Din can be very strict. I do not have time to bring proofs now.

    #886348

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And Kaddish isn’t a Ray’ah. We say Kaddish for everyone. R’ Elyashiv’s kids are saying Kaddish for him. Do you think he really needs it?

    Dont quote me on this as I am not 100%, but I think Rav Elyashiv outlived most of his children and there might not be any SONS to say Kaddish (There are of course Grandsons, Great-Grandsons ,Great-Great Grandsons and I think at least one great-Great-Great Grandchild)

    #886349

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    RabbiOfBerlin, please leave Nadav and Evihu out of the mix. They were Kedoshim before they died. It was said of them, Bikrovai Akadesh. Chazal say they were greater than Moshe and Aharon.

    #886350

    choppy
    Participant

    zsdad: Every son of Rav Eliashev is alive, save one who was niftar in childhood. One daughter was killed in 1948 by the Arabs and one was niftar a few months ago.

    #886351

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Haleivi=you misunderstood my posting.Regardless of how the medrosh considers Nodv ve-avihu, Moshe rabbeinu considered them kedoshim and said that HKBH made them kedoshim. Let’s follow Moshe Rabbeinu’s derech and accept all Jews who die an unatural death-specifically because they are jews-as kedoshim. let’s not interpret “darkei hashem’ the ways of the Almighty.

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