East Ramapo budget should be voted down

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  • #1297982

    Joseph
    Participant

    Don’t forget to vote on Tuesday.

    #1298320

    MRS PLONY
    Participant

    How come?
    I mean, obviously we should all exercise our civic duty to vote in whichever elections are applicable to us. But how come the budget should be voted down?

    #1298332

    Joseph
    Participant

    1) They are proposing to raise taxes.

    2) They removed the additional bussing for private schools that was originally proposed by the board.

    #1298366

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, why,are they over funding public school kids?

    #1298369

    Joseph
    Participant

    They are under-funding private school kids bussing. They took away bussing on legal holidays that the schools are open on.

    Is the safety of private school children going to school on holidays and Sundays unimportant?

    Sure you can argue that bussing on legal holidays is non-mandated (unlike bussing on most school days, which is mandated for private schools.) But the board has the right to fund non-mandated options. Non-mandated stuff are funded in public schools, such as gym, art, full day kindergarten, etc. The safety of getting private school kids to school is at least as important as public school kids gym class.

    If private school children will have their stuff taken away from them, the parents of private school children (representing a majority of voters) should vote down the tax increase.

    #1298383

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If the Budget is voted down, it does not mean they are going to make a new budget with the desired results. They will more likely run an austerity budget which will make cuts and many people wont like.

    There might also STILL be a tax increase, even with the budget being voted down as some things have to be paid for no matter what, like electric bills , heating bills , negotiated teacher salaries etc.

    and just an fyi Gym , Art and Music are mandated by the state. Just because many yeshiva kids dont have some of these things , doesnt mean its not mandated or important

    #1298447

    Joseph
    Participant

    1) If the budget is voted down there will be no tax increase.

    2) If the budget is voted down, mandated services such as bussing to private schools will not be affected.

    3) Full day kindergarten, gym and art are not mandated in New York State. This is what austerity will cut back from.

    #1298493

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Id put in a link that says taxes might still increase even with budgets turned down. it has happend many times already.

    Amount of Required Physical Education: New York mandates at least 120 minutes of physical
    education per week in grades K-6, but does not require daily recess. Students in grades K-3 must have
    daily physical education, and students in grades 4-6 must have physical education at least three times per
    week. The state also mandates at least 90 minutes per week of physical education in grades 7-12 and
    requires all schools, including high schools, to provide physical education to all students. At the
    secondary level, this must be provided at least three times per week in one semester and two times per
    week in the other semester.

    #1298503

    Joseph
    Participant

    NYS law precludes a tax increase after the second time voters say no.

    Since full day kindergarten, gym and art are being paid for even though they are non-mandated, they will be the first things cut if there’s an austerity budget following this second vote against a tax increase.

    #1298521

    RebYidd23
    Participant

    Safety is important, but school on Sunday and holidays is not.

    #1298522

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Joseph…WRONG AGAIN
    Physical Education (gym) is mandated in NY State. The minutes per week varies by grade

    “1. Can school districts eliminate or reduce the day/time requirement for physical education?

    No. Education Law 803 requires instruction in physical education and instructs the Board of Regents to adopt rules on how this must be achieved. Commissioner’s Regulation 135 (PDF 65.0 KB) are those rules. School districts are required by Education Law and Commissioner’s regulations to implement a physical education program that meets or exceeds the specified instructional requirements.

    2. What are the New York State requirements for physical education?

    All students in K-12 must attend and participate in a physical education program.

    All pupils in grades K-3 shall attend and participate in physical education on a daily basis.

    All pupils in grades 4-6 shall attend and participate in physical education not less than three times per week.

    All pupils in grades 7-12 shall attend and participate in physical education for not less than three times per week in one semester, and not less than two times per week in the other semester.

    3. What is the time requirement for physical education per calendar week?

    120 minutes per calendar week exclusive of any time that may be required for dressing and showering.

    4. Are there any waivers or exemptions for physical education?

    No. All pupils shall attend and participate. Individual medical certificates of limitations must indicate the area of the program in which the pupil may participate.

    School district plans must indicate steps to be taken to insure that each pupil meets the requirement for participation in their physical education program.

    5. Must students earn high school credit in physical education?

    Yes. Students entering grade 9 until graduation must earn the equivalent of two units of credit in physical education to be eligible to receive a diploma….”
    FROM THE NYS DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION WEBSITE…CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTION SECTION.

    I just waged a similar fight on behalf of our grandson whose day school tried to cut back on PE time stating it was not a state requirement. We warned the board that they could lose accreditation and all public funding for non-compliance with the law.

    #1298525

    Joseph
    Participant

    There’s a lot of non-mandated curriculum and activities, including but not limited to full day kindergarten, in the East Ramapo public school system that will be first in line for cutbacks in an austerity budget.

    #1298544

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, please get your facts straight. Transportation OVER TWO MILES is mandated. Under two miles is not. Art and music are also mandated. CT is right. The gym, art and music mandates apply to yeshivas too. Hi
    .

    #1298572

    TheGoq
    Participant

    I think people who don’t live there shouldn’t tell people who do what they should do.

    #1298571

    huju
    Participant

    Bussing children has no place in public, religious or other private schools. Busing, on the other hand, is an important matter for children who live too far from school to walk. If parents want to buss their children before they go to school, the government should not interfere one way or the other.

    #1298573

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    I have resigned from the BOD of Yeshivos who refuse to comply with the law. I will not be held personally and/or criminally libel if they think they can ignore what education is mandated for ALL students, public and private.

    Read the law, know the law, follow the law…work within the system to change the law, BUT don NOT break the law.

    I recently took action against a public school principal who told teachers to keep students from attending, gym, art and music if they had not completed all homework assignments due that day. Threat of a lawsuit, cancelled the policy, Principal is on probation and will likely lose her job. More than 1100 hours of lost PE was discovered last fall semester in that one school.

    #1298579

    Joseph
    Participant

    The bottom line is that there’s millions and millions of dollars in NON-MANDATED services, curriculum and programs spent in public schooling in East Ramapo. That’s what’s first in line for cuts if the tax increase is rejected and an austerity budget imposed.

    #1298598

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, you were wrong on your other facts, why should anybody believe anything you say

    #1298597

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    liable, not libel…darn autocorrect

    #1298603

    Joseph
    Participant

    LC, no need to believe me. Do some rudimentary research. It is indesputable that in NYS after a second voter defeat of the school budget, an austerity budget is imposed with a 0% increase that cuts non-mandated services to makeup the school budget shortfall.

    #1298626

    lesschumras
    Participant

    But you also said all busing was mandated while gym,art and music we’re. It. Busing under two miles is not mandatory and, as you say, will be cut. I hope the parents thank you for it

    #1298632

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Actually the biggest waste was found to be in services for the disabled. It is mandated to provide services for these students, however it is not mandated to send them to a private school that charges more than the public school costs. Alot of these students were sent to the Kiryat Joel district when they could have been educated in Monsey

    #1298657

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    The waste is not in the special education. The amount going to outside districts is not so much more than what it would cost to provide in the district and many times it is less. The public schools do not have the resources for many of these unfortunate children. You need to stop accepting the comments in LOHUD as anything approaching fact.

    This was proven to you many times in the previous discussions.

    Joseph happens to be correct, under an austerity budget there will be no increase in the tax. I know this because I saw the information mailed out by the board with the details of the new budget proposal and the results if the budget is again defeated.

    #1298648

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sending them to KJ, which already has yiddish, costs less than Ramapo public schools hiring new yiddish special ed teachers. Special ed kids are entitled to be taught in their native language whether it is Spanish or yiddish.

    #1298656

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    LC,

    Busing in ERCSD is available for all students by law, regardless of the distance. 2 miles does not apply to the district. This was discussed ad nauseum in the past.

    #1298684

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is no law that you have to hire teachers in any language other than english. Many districts will try to hire bi- or more lingual teachers. Spanish usually gets better treatment than other languages for the simple reason that there are plenty of spanish speakers in the schools and its not hard to find spanish speaking teahers. Other languages not as easy. Pashtun (from Afganistan) they cannot find teachers who speak that language (NYC was looking for such teachers)

    If East Ramapo wanted to hire Yiddish speaking teachers because they felt they needed them, then let them do so. They would hire them as a need, not as a requirement. And it would be cheaper than sending them to Kiryat Joel.

    And while the law does not care what religon you are , and saying that you dont want you children to sing songs about a fat man with in a red suit in december. Do you really think many non-jews would attend a special ed class in Monsey. You can put the classes there

    #1298687

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    NO, Special Ed students are NOT entitled to be taught in their own native language forever. This is a myth. Title One the federal act that regulates special education does not supersede state regulations that permit bilingual education to be restricted to two school years. If there are less than 15 students in a school needing a particular language, a class in that language need not be instituted, but the student can receive services x hours per week from an ELL (English Language Lerner) teacher.
    It is possible to mainstream non-English speaking SPED students into an English speaking SPED class, by hiring a paraprofessional to assist in the class who can translate, this is no different that hearing impaired students who are provided with signers who assist in learning.
    As a family law attorney and child advocate, as well as a local government elected official, I have had to deal with many requests to stretch the limited school budget for special interest groups. Government does not equate multi-generational US citizen families who choose to speak a language other than English in the home in the same way as new immigrants who have not yet learned English.
    Today, with the state of electronics and computers, new arrival non-English Speakers, both ‘normal’ and Special Ed are often placed in regular classrooms. They do much of their work on Chromebooks with programs in multiple languages and are pulled from the class for specific help by specialists about 5 hours per week. School districts no longer have to bankrupt themselves or cut services to the vast majority of students to meet the needs of the few.

    #1298690

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Nisht, it is available but not mandated unless you live more than two miles away. This primarily affects private schools as parents don’t necessarily select schools based upon proximity

    #1298688

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In the end East Ramapo wants the state to pay which is really unlikely to happen. That would require the rest of the state to agree and many others would also want the extra money for their own budget shortfalls. And especually if the Budget is rejected you are not going to get the money

    Claiming you want Sunday busing for students who live 1 mile away from school, while cutting back Art and Music in the end just isnt going to fly with the rest of the state.

    #1298746

    Joseph
    Participant

    1. The district has a lot more Yiddish speaking children than Spanish speaking children.

    2. It would cost more to hire many full time Yiddish speaking special ed teachers than sending the kids to KJ where they already have full time Yiddish special ed teachers.

    3. If the board cuts back Yiddish speaking services for special ed, the board will also cut back Spanish speaking services for Hispanic public school students.

    The public school parents will object very loudly.

    4. If the board cuts out school bus transportation for students living within 1 or 2 miles of their school this will be done for both public and private schools.

    5. 85% of public school students live within 2 miles of their pubic school, since they are geographically placed. 20% of private school students live within 2 miles of their school, since they can choose a more distant school.

    As a result, if nearby school busing is eliminated, 85% of public school students will lose busing but only 20% of private school students will lose the same.

    The public school students’ parents will object to this much louder than the private school body.

    6. The public schools in the district receive millions and millions of dollars for non-mandated services, curriculum and programs in the public schools. This will be first in line for cuts during an austerity budget.

    Additionally, New York State law places no limit on the number of students per class in a public school.

    #1298750

    RebYidd23
    Participant

    Why should public funding not go to public schools?

    #1298757

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    As a result, if nearby school busing is eliminated, 85% of public school students will lose busing but only 20% of private school students will lose the same.

    Where do you get these statistics?

    #1298763

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Why should public funding not go to public schools?”

    Why should school taxes from private citizens not go to those taxpaying citizens’ private schools?

    #1298798

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Why should public funding not go to public schools?

    It should go to all schools which serve members of the public.

    #1298797

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram, they are rough estimates, not exact figures. But they are an accurate approximation of those figures.

    #1298808

    RebYidd23
    Participant

    But those private schools have been known to abuse funding.

    #1298829

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Public schools abuse the funding much worse.

    #1298846

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Because Public School funding is the law, Private school funding is not (Except for indirect aid like textbooks, Busing)

    That is why Public school gets the funding, If you choose not to use the Public school funding that is your choice, not the laws choice

    #1298978

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    LC
    “Nisht, it is available but not mandated unless you live more than two miles away. This primarily affects private schools as parents don’t necessarily select schools based upon proximity”.

    You are wrong. We had this discussion well over a year ago . You were wrong them and remain so now. There was a vote more than a decade ago, well before there was anything approaching a majority of Jews on the school board ,where it was decided that busing will be provided to all students regardless of how far they live from the school. That may not be the state mandate, but it is now required, by law, in the district. And as such, cannot be cut.

    #1298976

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “They would hire them as a need, not as a requirement. And it would be cheaper than sending them to Kiryat Joel.”

    So you are saying it would be cheaper to hire all the necessary staff to provide the services to a single child in ERCSD rather than send that child to a district where there is an infrastructure and services in place?

    The simple answer is that you are wrong. You comment is similar to the unabashed haters on LOHUD, do you winder why? DO you wonder why this has never been found to be an issue with the monitor? Because it is balderdash.

    #1299299

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The per student costs of Special Ed Students per student in East Ramapo are some of the highest in the state

    #1299504

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    The East Ramapo school district has been a huge chillul Hashem for years.

    #1299514

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    I don’t think that is true. But, your comment is misleading, because you do not say how it is calculated.

    Is it based on public school enrollment?

    Chew on that.

    #1299509

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Nisht, it is not the law, it is s non mandated courtesy that will disappear under austerity.

    Joseph, please stop making up numbers. If yeshiva kids are so close to their schools, why do they need busing? Don’t they walk to shul, family and friends on Shabbos? How big is East Ramapo that, as you claim, most kids don’t live near a school?

    #1299524

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    LC,

    You are wrong. There would have to be a change to the law to take away transportation. Yet again you show that you comment about that which you know not.

    #1299532

    Joseph
    Participant

    LC, it doesn’t matter how close the Yeshiva kid lives near “a school”. The only thing that matters under the law is how close or far the kid lives to *his* school that he goes to.

    #1299512

    Joseph
    Participant

    Nothing close to the chillul Hashem that YU has been for many decades.

    #1299521

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “The East Ramapo school district has been a huge chillul Hashem for years.”

    If you consider anti semites and YCY rabble rousers being upset, perhaps. But not if you were intellectually honest.

    There is a reason why the court threw out all the charges by the so called activists saying there was no basis at all for their complaints.

    These lawsuits were brought with the hope of personally harassing board members and attempting to cause them significant personal costs and losses.

    #1299598

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Nisht, the law says transportation over two miles. A board cannot pass laws to mandate transportation under two miles,. The law simply allows them to offer transportation under two miles
    Joseph, the law says over two miles is mandatory,not unfer

    #1299600

    mw13
    Participant

    The Eas Ramapo School District has, for years, been the source of baseless acrimony directed at hardworking Orthodox parents who just want their fair share of the pie (that they are almost completely paying for!!!) for their own children, particularly those with special needs.

    TheGoq:
    I think people who don’t live there shouldn’t tell people who do what they should do.

    +1

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