Every vote counts

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  • #1430378

    yehudayona
    Participant

    There’s interesting news out of Virginia. A seat in the House of Delegates was won by the Democrat on a recount. The margin of victory was one vote. This leaves the House of Delegates with a 50-50 tie between the two parties. It would seem that in order for them to get anything done, there will have to be bipartisanship, something that’s been sadly missing on the Federal level.

    #1430522

    Joseph
    Participant

    Bipartisanship is overrated. Partisanship usually is a better approach in modern American politics. Bipartisanship, as it’s used today, generally means Republicans caving in to Democrat demands while Democrats stand their ground.

    Regarding the voting process, the longtime Democrat approach to it is to vote early and vote often. And when all else fails to litigate so one of their appointed judges can fix things for them.

    #1430530

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Actually, in Virginia, there historically was a high level of bipartisanship and consensus (largely due to state law which restricts governors to a single term) and a measure of southern civility…that ended under a Republican majority that tried to push through a right wing social agenda and deny the minority an opportunity to participate in the legislative process. That ended earlier this month with a new moderate Democratic governor being elected and today with the recount results. The blue tide is spreading south from the D.C. suburbs and north and west from Richmond

    #1430547

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Joseph, I’m not surprised that you disparage bipartisanship. After all, you don’t seem to hold civility in high esteem.

    Virtually every election official, whether Democrat or Republican, says voter fraud is almost non-existent today. From what I’ve read, the Republicans are not challenging the results of this election.

    #1430558

    Joseph
    Participant

    Bipartisanship doesn’t equate to civility. You can have civility while passing legislation on a partisan basis. I’m all in favor of civility while opposing bipartisanship based on its current political definition (that I pointed out above.)

    Virtually every election official does *not* say that voter fraud is almost non-existent today. What you meant to say is that virtually every Democrat official says voter fraud is almost non-existent today. And that’s because they don’t want the fraud in their favor interrupted. You need an ID to get on an airplane or even into government and private buildings. There’s no reason not to require an ID to protect the democratic voting process unless you want to protect fraudulent voting.

    #1431071

    Joseph
    Participant

    In Virginia, regarding the House of Delegates election that was yesterday a one vote victory by the Democrat, they found another uncounted vote (that the scanner didn’t count) for the Republican that has now tied the election.

    It will be decided by a lottery or coin toss. The Virgina House may remain Republican after all.

    #1433541

    yehudayona
    Participant

    The Republican secretaries of state of the following states have said that voter fraud is not a problem that they encounter: Ohio, Louisiana, Colorado, Mississippi, Nevada, Washington, Oregon, Michigan, and Arizona. The National Association of Secretaries of State, in a press release, stated: “We are not aware of any evidence that supports the voter fraud claims made by President Trump… In the lead up to the November 2016 election, secretaries of state expressed their confidence in the systemic integrity of our election process as a bipartisan group, and they stand behind that statement today.”

    #1433542

    yehudayona
    Participant

    The disputed ballot had the circles filled in for both candidates, but the circle for the Democrat had a line through it. A court ruled that since the voter had voted straight Republican otherwise, it should be counted as a vote for the Republican rather than as an invalid ballot. I’m pretty sure that in New York, such a ballot would be rejected by the scanner. At least that’s what happened when I accidentally voted for 8 judges instead of 7. I was given another ballot to fill out. I hope this debacle influences Virginia to change their system so that a ballot such as this is rejected on the spot, leaving no doubt as to the voter’s intentions.

    #1433571

    Joseph
    Participant

    That statement was only denying the president’s assertion that there were “millions” of fraudulent votes in 2016. That number is obvious hyperbole and of course inaccurate. But that in no way denies that voting fraud occurs in every election.

    The very reason that the fraud is so unquantifiable is exactly because anyone can walk into a voting precint and claim to be anyone else and fraudulently vote in their name with no ID. And no one might ever know. When such fraud occurs, the vast majority of the time it goes undetected. Which is why ID should be required to vote. Just as it is required to fly or go into many buildings.

    #1433578

    Joseph
    Participant

    Virginia’s voting scanners IS programmed to reject an overvote, just like New York’s does. It was assumed the voter walked away from the scanner (as many overvoters do) even though it informed him he overvoted, so the scanner kept the ballot in order to officially count his other valid votes.

    #1434233

    yehudayona
    Participant

    That’s not the way it works in NY, AFAIK. In my case, the scanner spit out the ballot.

    Although that statement from the National Association of Secretaries of State was referring to the 2016 election, several of the Republican election officials I referred to were talking about elections in their states in general. How about you coming up with an election official who thinks that voter fraud is a significant problem? Other than Kris Kobach, who has had a grand total of nine convictions in his drive to root out voter fraud in Kansas.

    #1434248

    Joseph
    Participant

    I believe if you walk away from the scanner after it spit it out due to the overvote, after a certain period of short time where you didn’t retrieve the ballot from the scanner feeder it will assume you left and re-swallow the ballot in order to count the valid votes.

    As I stated earlier, it is impossible to even know how much voter fraud occurs since it is so easy to fraudulently vote in another person’s name without any ID (and in many states even fraudulently register fake names as voters, although doing that is easier to eventually recognize as a fraudulently registration if they check [which many states do not], unlike actually voting fraudulently, which is almost impossible to later determine occurred, let alone identify who did it in order to prosecute.)

    If Kris Kobach got nine convictions just in his tenure in his state, despite the extreme difficulty in even identifying voting fraud when it happens and the difficulty in finding who voted fraudulently, imagine how much more fraud occurred in his state that went unidentified and how much fraud occurred in the other 49 states.

    There are thousands of temporary poll workers in every state who work only 2 or 3 days a year for the board of elections with a 15 hour workday, 6am-9pm in some states like New York.I They mostly retirees and get about 3-4 hours of training once a year. They each deal with hundreds of voters each election day, signing them in, etc. In it extremely easy to vote in anyone’s name undetected. Most registered voters do not vote in non-presidential election years. And such fraud can, and does, go undetected that it isn’t even quantifiable how much occurs.

    Why so much opposition to asking for ID, just like you’re asked when flying, buying alcohol, opening a bank account, applying for food stamps or Medicaid, renting a house, car or hotel room, or picking up a prescription?

    Unless the goal is to permit fraudulent voting.

    #1434249

    Joseph
    Participant

    Btw, I’ve personally been a site administer at a poll site for the Board of Elections, and just at my site I’ve encountered a voter walking in to vote only to find that someone else already signed in to vote in his name. The first signature was in the same name as the voter and the voter who walked in to vote showed ID proving he was who he said he is. I contacted the Board for instructions on how to handle it and they advised to let him vote. I made a notation on the signature book what occurred but I know it was never followed up by anyone afterwards.

    And this was just at one random poll site I administered one year. It was never investigated, let alone counted as, voting fraud despite a strong possibility that it was just that.

    #1434276

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Voter fraud doesn’t matter. There’s nothing good running.

    #1434304

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    This year there was a tie vote in the Democratic Primary for City Council in the 133rd District in Bridgeport, Connecticut’s largest city. This is in the North End, the last area of Bridgeport with a Jewish presence
    Winning the primary is tantamount to winning the general election.
    The following morning it was announced that an uncounted absentee ballot was found and the incumbent was declared the winner by one vote.
    This was taken to court and the one absentee ballot that miraculously appeared ruled invalid.
    A new election was ordered.
    Second time around, absentee ballots that arrived without postmarks, delivered by a policeman were challenged in court. The second election was thrown out.
    The new City Council was sworn into office and began work the first wee of December, but the 133rd faces a February primary for representation. The judge ordered a third election.

    Had one more citizen voted in person at the polls in September, there would have been a winner. Primary turnout was only about 10%.

    #1434337

    yehudayona
    Participant

    The obvious reason for the opposition to photo ID is that not everyone who is eligible to vote has it. For example, an 18-year-old non-driver who lives with his parents and doesn’t fly has no reason to shlep to the DMV to get a photo ID. You don’t need photo ID to open a bank account, BTW.

    #1434502

    Joseph
    Participant

    Shlepping to the DMV to get a non-Drivers photo ID, especially when states with ID requirements for voting are waiving the fee, is a very very small request to ask of voters to vote and safeguard the integrity of the vote. ID is required for so many smaller things in today’s day and age.

    #1434503

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @yehudayona
    CT asks voters to show a photo ID at the poling place, but it is NOT a requirement. A voter can refuse and simply fill out and swear/affirm to an affidavit and may vote.

    In CT you must have a photo ID in order to open a bank account.

    Different jurisdictions have different rules….don’t think that your state’s rules apply across the USA, they don’t.

    #1435178

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Joseph, in rural areas with no public transportation, it’s a big deal to shlep to DMV, especially for people with physical disabilities. There’s also the issue of long waits at the DMV (although the NYS DMV has improved considerably since they’ve made it possible to do many transactions online).

    CTL, if you live in Connecticut, you can’t open a bank account at an online bank in another state that doesn’t require photo ID?

    BTW, apparently Georgia does require voters to show photo ID. That’s not deterring Moore supporters from accusations of voting fraud.

    #1435625

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “BTW, apparently Georgia does require voters to show photo ID. That’s not deterring Moore supporters from accusations of voting fraud”
    .all those illegal voters from Atlanta were bussed down to Alabama to vote for Jones…..Moore claims he has proof that over 1000 buses were seen heading south…..

    As Alice said to Toto: “We not kn Kansas anymore…” Georgia ain’t Alabama

    #1435616

    Joseph
    Participant

    It is still a very small thing to ask voters to get and produce an ID. IDs are required for so much less than voting. Voting should require a demonstration of concern for the integrity of the vote and of the voters desire to participate in the process.

    #1435655

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @yehudayona
    I posted that a picture ID was required to open a bank account in CT. If you are opening an account with an on-line bank based elsewhere you are NOT opening it in CT, it doesn’t matter of you live in CT, you sign an agreement that the bank regulations of the bank’s state apply.

    The last on-line bank account I opened required that I send an image of my CT driver’s license

    #1435658

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Iowa, Ohio, what’s the difference? My apologies to Georgians for confusing them with Alabamans.

    Joseph, there have been five Constitutional amendments that have expanded the right to vote (15, 17, 19, 24, and 26). That’s a huge proportion of the total. It shows how much the American people want voting to be open to all citizens. (Yes, I realize the 17th Amendment didn’t expand the number of people who could vote, but it nonetheless expanded the power of the voters.)

    #1435662

    Joseph
    Participant

    Asking for ID is not a retraction of anyone’s right to vote.

    #1435669

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I would never get a photo ID to vote.

    #1436409

    yehudayona
    Participant

    So I googled “religious objection to being photographed” and learned that it’s a real issue in Pennsylvania where many Amish and Mennonites object to being photographed on religious grounds (think how much they save on weddings). Of course there are other religious issues with photo IDs, such as Muslim women who wear veils.

    Photo IDs are also not foolproof. Think of identical twins.

    Given the general agreement among election officials that voter fraud is extremely rare, requiring photo ID seems to be a solution in search of a problem.

    #1436423

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Amish and Mennonites, as a matter of religious conviction, also choose not to excercise their right to vote. Additionally, should those who refuse to be photographed also not be denied the right to drive and have a driver’s license? Surely you wouldn’t advocate they be denied the right to economic progress and independence that comes along with the right to drive.

    Asking for ID when voting, just as it is required when entering many buildings, flying, purchasing alcohol or applying for food stamps or Medicaid, is a very minimal requirement. And it insures the integrity of the vote.

    Given the general agreement that committing voter fraud is extremely difficult to detect since generally no one will usually realize when someone voted in someone else’s name, let alone the difficulty to identify the perpetrators for prosecution even if it is detected, requiring photo ID seems to be a very reasonable and minimal solution.

    #1436448

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    There is no right to drive.

    #1436527

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Don’t Amish and Mennonites eschew motor vehicles? I don’t think you need a license to drive a buggy. They don’t have a religious objection to voting.

    #1436976

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I can’t enter my office building without ID. Why can’t it be required to vote?

    #1436973

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @yehudayona
    Mennonites do drive motor vehicles. They are often employed by the Amish as drivers when an Amish person/family must make a trip requiring motorized transportation.

    #1436980

    Joseph
    Participant

    “I can’t enter my office building without ID. Why can’t it be required to vote?”

    Because some people want to protect the right to fraudulently vote. So they invent rationalizations why showing ID is soo soo difficult. The poor fellow will have to once in his life go to the DMV office to get a free non-drivers ID. (States with voter ID requirements offer them for free.) And that is so hard to do even once.

    #1436988

    Meno
    Participant

    What’s a Menonite?

    #1436996

    Joseph
    Participant

    It’s a Protestant religion that the Amish are a sub-group of.

    #1438120

    Redleg
    Participant

    I’m with Joe on this one. Rights aren’t free. They come with responsibilities. The rather modest effort to acquire a photo ID seems well worth the right to vote that it confers. I can see that, in earlier times, it may have been a significant imposition to obtain a photo ID (Heck! in really earlier times, they didn’t exist) but now they are easy enough to get that, barring severe disability, no one really has an excuse not to have one. It’s difficult to conduct normal life without one. Never mind opening a bank account, you can’t check into a hotel or cash a check without one or do a myriad of other things without a photo ID. Why should anything as important and significant as voting be different.

    #1438286

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Priveleges aren’t free. Rights are supposed to be.

    #1437907

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Requiring voters to present identification is retarded.

    #1438461

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Redleg, I gave a perfectly reasonable example of someone who has no need for a photo ID: an 18-year-old non-driver who lives with his parents and never flies. I also gave a perfectly reasonable example of someone for whom getting a photo ID is very difficult: someone who lives far from whatever office issues them and has no access to public transportation. I pointed out that if he has a physical disability, it’s even harder. Again, there is no evidence that voter fraud isn’t extremely rare, at least if you believe the Secretaries of State of virtually all the states, whatever their party. Unlike driving, flying, cashing a check, entering iacisrmma’s office building, or opening a bank account in Connecticut, voting is a right that’s guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. Therefore there’s a very good reason not to burden voters with unnecessary requirements.

    #1438488

    Joseph
    Participant

    Do these fellows also need the government to send a chauffeur to ferry them to their polling site on election day, since they have no good public transportation?

    #1442863

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Republican won the tie breaker goral today and the Republicans will continue to control the Virginia House of Delegates.

    #1442977

    yehudayona
    Participant

    The loser of the lottery has the right to request another recount. She hasn’t said whether or not she will.

    As for your snide remark about getting to the polls, there are several ways for them to vote. They could cast absentee ballots or they could get a ride to the polls (I believe some organizations provide these). Also, polling places tend to be much closer than offices where you get official photo ID (DMV and the like).

    #1443057

    Joseph
    Participant

    If they can get a ride to the polls twice a year, they surely can get a ride once in their life to get an ID card.

    #1443343

    DovidBT
    Participant

    The Republican won the tie breaker today and the Republicans will continue to control the Virginia House of Delegates.

    B”H

    #1443417

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Joseph, maybe they can’t get a ride to the polls and they vote absentee. Or maybe they can get a ride a mile or so to the polls with their neighbor who’s also going to vote, but they can’t get a ride 20 or 30 miles to the DMV.

    #1443422

    Joseph
    Participant

    There are many Americans who live very far from their polling station. The right to vote comes with responsibilities to excercise that right. Those unwilling to exert the necessary responsibilities forfeits their right.

    #1443868

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Those who live far from the polls can cast absentee ballots. The responsibilities are two: register, and vote.

    #1443923

    Joseph
    Participant

    Asking them to get an ID once in their life is asking little to excercise the right to vote. The right comes with responsibilities. This is one of them.

    Btw, in many states including New York living too far from the polls is not a legally valid reason to obtain an absentee ballot. Only illness or being out of the county/city is valid to vote absentee in NY.

    #1448560

    Joseph
    Participant

    Virginia is done. The Republican won. A third recount will not occur and has not been requested. The Republicans continue to control the Virginia House of Delegates after everyone was sworn in yesterday.

    #1450501

    I remember seeing a news item a while ago in the Lakewood Shopper
    about a man winning a minor local office due to his own vote for
    himself because no one else had voted in that particular election.

    #1450567

    DovidBT
    Participant

    remember seeing a news item a while ago in the Lakewood Shopper
    about a man winning a minor local office due to his own vote for
    himself because no one else had voted in that particular election.

    It would be amusing if there had been a demand for a recount.

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