April 2, 2012 12:36 am at 12:36 am #602754
Is there a way to handle the situation in Geulah Friday afternoon with the yeshiva bachurim and seminary girls all there together???
April 2, 2012 12:41 am at 12:41 am #865986
seems like they are all about to enter shiduchim what seems to be the issue?
April 2, 2012 12:41 am at 12:41 am #865987
Adopt the very succesful takanos from Gateshead.
April 2, 2012 12:46 am at 12:46 am #865988
yes. ignore it
April 2, 2012 1:07 am at 1:07 am #865989
what situation?? the girls are there- and the boys are there- thats it- its not like they are hanging out together- whats the big problem?? i went with a few friends one friday because we had to run a few errands- it was all completely pareve- girls going to do what they had to do and boys doing what they had to- and there also is the problem of the buses- a lot of them go through geula and thats the most convient place to catch them- and on erev shabbos everyone is taking buses to different places-
April 2, 2012 2:09 am at 2:09 am #865990
Yes to solve your problem, why not go shopping Thursday night?
April 2, 2012 2:17 am at 2:17 am #865991
whatshaiches- you think that solves the problem? i have been there- its not any different! unless things have changed…
April 2, 2012 2:18 am at 2:18 am #865992
Bar Bay RavParticipant
Good Nekudah by whatshaiches not everything needs a Takanah sometimes you just have to look after yourself and find an Eitzah!!
April 2, 2012 2:32 am at 2:32 am #865993
BBR and whatshaiches- you could do that, but you know, what happens if thursday night doesn’t work out, and friday is the best day for you? so now ur stuck. i think just go on friday. its not like ur gonna be standing there chatting with all these girls/bachurim. mind your own business, they will mind theirs. soif maaseh. when i was in sem (very recently), walking through geula any day ment bumping into men sometimes. and yes, i am a very frum bais yaakov girl, and so are all my friends, and you know what, we didn’t make a big deal out of it b/c we knew geula was cowded and we don’t own the streets, and there is not really anything you can do about it. just keep walking!
April 2, 2012 2:33 am at 2:33 am #865994
What do you mean by “bumping”?
April 2, 2012 2:36 am at 2:36 am #865995
i mean literally- bumping into them. swiping as you pass by each other. and then continuing on as if nothing happened- because in reality, it’s the norm there.
April 2, 2012 2:44 am at 2:44 am #865996
That doesn’t sound too kosher.
April 2, 2012 2:50 am at 2:50 am #865997
Stuck: Just because it doesn’t sound Kosher to you doesn’t mean it isn’t. Rav Moshe and the Tzitz Eliezer both have famous T’shuvos pointing out that it’s Muttar to sit next to women on a bus and be squeezed into a subway train with them. There’s no Derech Chibah or Hana’ah and there’s no Issur.
April 2, 2012 2:53 am at 2:53 am #865998
But you needn’t place yourself in that predicament unnecessarily. Going to work is necessary.
April 2, 2012 2:55 am at 2:55 am #865999
ok I aguess ppl here dont know what goes on there
girls dress up as if they are “walking down the red carpet”
boys are out looking for them. these are boys from top yeshivas
I think its fine as they are both entering shidchuim and are getting a head start
April 2, 2012 3:01 am at 3:01 am #866000
stuck, it may not. and believe me, if it were anywhere else, like where i live now (well, the streets are not that crowded at all) i would be totally embarrassed bumping into to a guy. but there i think it is such a given- i mean, of course you should be as careful as possible, but there’s not much you can do.
April 2, 2012 3:02 am at 3:02 am #866001
elikatz: Do they interact with each other?
April 2, 2012 3:04 am at 3:04 am #866002
Stuck: And buying Tzorchei Shabbos isn’t necessary? And who says? Negiyah Derech Chibah is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. We wouldn’t be Mattir that for any circumstance, let alone the “necessity” of going to this particular job (and the Tzitz Eliezer was talking about any bus in Eretz Yisrael; as far as I recall he doesn’t specifically mention it being for work). If it’s not Assur then that means it’s Muttar in this case. If there’s Mamash no Derech Chibah V’hana’ah then it would appear to be Muttar.
April 2, 2012 3:06 am at 3:06 am #866003
yes some do but mostly its just checking out the matzav and who they want to be red too when they back in the usa
April 2, 2012 3:10 am at 3:10 am #866004
elikatz: What kind of interaction? And how would anyone know who’s who to remember back in the States?
Sam: Uh, yeshiva boys and sem girls buying Tzorchei Shabbos??
April 2, 2012 3:14 am at 3:14 am #866005
elikatz, i never saw this when i was in geula. and what would that help anyway? they don’t know the girls names (and the girls don’t know the boys names). what would they do? go to america and tell the shadchan set me up with the girl that was in geula on the friday before parshas ________, she was wearing a blue shirt with a button down sweater and a pleated skirt, and a funky headband. oh yeah you know her????? come on!
April 2, 2012 3:57 am at 3:57 am #866006
SIMPLE you point out a girl get her info and have some one red it
April 2, 2012 4:31 am at 4:31 am #866007
How do you get her info?
April 2, 2012 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #866008
It’s not about “what could happen.” It’s about the issur against mingling.
April 2, 2012 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #866009
loyal jew, just because you happen to be walking on the same street doesn’t mean you have to mingle! just walk. don’t stop to stare at anyone, chat with anyone… if someone can’t handle this little bit of self control, then maybe he (i assume its more of a guy problem than a girl problem) should not go to geula. cuz i really think that most (98% if not more) ppl handle the situation just fine.
April 2, 2012 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #866010
Bar Bay RavParticipant
First of all a question for all those who think that for shidduchim mingling is fine (or even just to check each other out). What happened to the shidduch system where the couple gets redt to each other, like Klal Yisroel has been doing for years? Second of all yummy cupcake how do you know 98% of people handle it fine as you said it’s more of a guy thing?
April 2, 2012 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #866011
yummy cupcake: why is it more of a guys problem then a girls problem?
April 2, 2012 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #866012
Stuck: Of course, many times yeshiva boys and seminary girls need to shop for tzorchei shabbos, even if it’s just a gift for their host or if they’re making shabbos for themselves. People do do it. My family has access to an apartment in the Old City and we always try to get it for my cousins in Israel when it’s available so that they can bring their friends for Shabbos and do it themselves. They come back raving about it.
April 2, 2012 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #866013
It’s the 2% we need to worry about.
April 2, 2012 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #866014
guys always seem to have this problem more than girls do. i think the guys make a bigger issue out of it- i mean that does make sense because really because they have all the halachos of shmiras eynayim… i mean, so do us girls but its different. whatever it was really just my opinion- i could totally be wrong.
April 2, 2012 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #866015
i put up a post- i don’t know where it went. anyway, it was saying that its just my opinion that its more of a guy thing. it just seems to be they would be the ones to make a bigger issue out of it because of all the halachos of shmiras einayim and such. yes, girls should be careful too, but its different i think.
bar bay rav: i meant it as two separate things. ppl in geula seem to handle it fine (at least from my vantage point when i was there). point #2- if anyone will make an issue out of it, its probably the guys. no? i could be totally wrong! this is just the way i see it.
April 2, 2012 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #866016
you walk through the narrow space b/w a buss stop, and watch their eyes. They all turn and watch you as u walk
April 2, 2012 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #866017
stuck- oh so its a problem here but not at a bakery erev shabbos??? my sister once went into a bakery in bp- which will remain nameless- she was the only girl in a store packed full of chassidim- shomer negiah went out the window- she was pushed and shoved- and don’t tell me its because it was chassidim because i’ve seen it happen with plenty of different types of ppl!! that’s the way it is-
the girls i know didnt go get dressed up and especially go to geula- the only free time they had was fri- so they went- they didnt go to look at the guys etc- they just went got what they needed and left! its erev shabbos!! no one is just sitting around!! there are things to do!!
notedaskan- i think she means cuz a boy has an issur about thinking about girls- but girls dont have that issur-
April 2, 2012 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #866018
whoa just realized how confusing that was! that gefen post is really mine! and yes bygirl thats what i meant
April 2, 2012 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #866019
Honestly, the yeshiva world cr is advocating taaruvois in geulah on friday afternoon. if there was strong enough language to condemn the people in here who clearly arent in full control of their faculties, i would use it. but it will get modded and no-one will listen. feh and shame on you.
April 2, 2012 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #866021
As a whole we gotta figure somthin out. As a bachur I go there, because I need things,a nd its close to my yeshiva. The girls know that and should be respectful when they go. Also geula is suppose to be a very tznius place….I never dreamend it would be this bad.
( my friend is lookingover my shoulder at what Im writing right now) He disagrees- he loves it, and hopes it continue.
( Dont worry Ill learn some mussar with him
April 2, 2012 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #866022
Okay, I’m really confused by this thread. I was in E”Y last year, and I was in Geula a couple of times Erev Shabbos, and yes, there is rush hour traffic, but there are no negiah problems if you keep to yourself and keep moving. Like rush hour on the subway. Like any normal person. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that’s the only problem that I can possibly think of. There was no “mingling” of yeshiva bochurim and BY sem students. I don’t get why the fact that there are a lot of people getting on buses means they are going to “mingle.” Or “hang out.” Whatever you like to call it. I think some people are inventing problems just for the heck of it. And it’s seriously ridiculous.
elikatz and Bar Bay Rav: Very bizarre idea. Even people who approved of mixed events wouldn’t go for it. Kal v’chomer when we’re talking about mainstream yeshiva bochurim and BY sem girls.
April 2, 2012 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #866023
I have no experience being in Geula at all (I’ve never even been to Israel), but if this discussion is about guys and girls from “yeshivish” (for lack of a better word) backgrounds, chances are they wouldn’t know how to have a proper conversation with each other anyway and wouldn’t have a clear idea of where to draw the line, and therefore, it can be a potentially dangerous situation IF they actually are interacting. If they aren’t, and some of you have said they aren’t, then it would seem there’s no issue anyway. If they were from backgrounds where interaction was fine, and they are used to it, and they understand where to draw the line and are mature (and if they’re going to Israel by themselves, they SHOULD be mature), then it can be a good place to meet possible prospective spouses.
April 2, 2012 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #866024
i was in geula- i learnt in yeshiva there. it was uncomfortable being there with tons of girls– but why is it different then going to Yesh, or shefa shuk? (the equivalent to shoprite in the US?)
the girls and boys are not talking, they are not swiping.
you can say for that matter never to go on a bus or to get change from a cashier.
Negiah does happen occasionally, but not intended. for the most part it happens when it isnt realized, and it can be avoided.
there are many issues that have to be raised, this is not one of them.
There maybe another reason not to go to geula on friday, that there are so many guys and girls in the ‘right age’ and if they see each other too much, they may become friends.. but not for touching…
i hated to go to geula on fridays, but i hated to go to a grocery store also–
the more people make issues out of something– the bigger the issue becomes..
(and btw it was nice to get fresh candy/or a cake from brooklyn bakery from the sem girls came for shabbos (no guys usually dont bring gifts.. dont know why- as they eat more.. but they dont)
ok enough of my rambling
April 2, 2012 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #866025
peerim- pls tell your friend that if he is one of those guys standing on the corner checking out the girls or purposely crossing the street purposely to “walk by” girls- 1) he obviously has no life 2) girls are talking about how pathetic he is- oh ya- and he’s being over an issur- but thats not my business.
btw- the old city is where the “action” is or the rova to be more specific- on a friday night or thurs night – so if you want to rant and rave about something pick something like that not some place pretty innocent like geula
April 3, 2012 4:21 am at 4:21 am #866026
Yummy Cupcake, mingling is the act of being in a mixed setting, not the doing. Doing is an additional and separate problem.
April 3, 2012 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #866027
And, once again, the zealots have insulted the last two or three generations of gedolim who tirelessly worked to build mosdos to teach our kids proper midos and behavior by assuming none of that teaching actually meant anything, and no one educated in a yeshiva or seminary in the last 50 years will know how to behave in public. They have also just told generations of parents that they have sent millions of dollars spent on that education down the drain, because cholilo v’chas someone should actually be put in a situation where the things they learned should actually be put into practice, rather than avoided meikoro.
The point is to act with menschlichkeit and tznius on the street, on a bus, in a store, not to remove yourself from the street, the bus, or the store. Its like saying – best not to go to shul this shabbos because I am afraid I’m going to talk during davening, so if I don’t go, I won’t talk. Ridiculous.
April 3, 2012 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #866029
As some people mentioned it’s not such a big deal pretty much everyone keeps to themselves…. But don’t underestimate… Mods why do keep deleting everything I write???
April 4, 2012 12:26 am at 12:26 am #866030
i used to be from those who thought uit wasnt bad in geulah on friday afternoon. i wasnt there much but i almost never saw it. one or two maasim proved me wrong. its not always the boys who start it, i saw two modern looking girls approach shabobs numerous times and start shmoozing. its not good and should be discouraged if you dont need to. and the comparison above to shefa is a bit nuts. ok, just nuts. ive never seen anything in shefa not tznius, except for maybe the cashiers.
April 4, 2012 2:24 am at 2:24 am #866032
Toi: You say “modern looking.” The more modern are more open to inter-gender socialization. It’s not a taboo by them. They will do what they will do, but it’s hardly a “situation” that needs to be “handled.” It’s their own deal.
April 4, 2012 3:48 am at 3:48 am #866033
modern looking americans approaching israeli boys only occurs for one reason. and its not kiruv. Does MO approve of that. and these guys had curly payos. come on, gimme a break, its bad and wrong. why cant you just say it?
April 4, 2012 5:18 am at 5:18 am #866034
I’m not going to say what I think about it. The point is, what you and I think is irrelevant to what they think. And it’s their hashkafos, not ours. And to tell you the truth, I really don’t know why modern girls would try to approach boys with curly paiyes…
April 4, 2012 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #866035
again- not for kiruv. the majority of people in geulah are chareidi/yeshivish. mingling of the genders is bad. done!
April 4, 2012 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #866036
That’s not what I meant… No, “majority” does not rule in civil society. We try to operate by “live and let live.” If, as you say, the differing hashkafos between parties are in a way that directly affects the one party, then they should simply tell them to bug off. But I don’t even think that’s applicable, because I think you’re exaggerating this “situation.”
But to the actual purpose of thread: why do you think that the fact that there are a lot of yeshiva bochurim and sem girls getting on to buses at the same time is “taaruvois”?
April 4, 2012 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #866037
1. a neighborhood in which the majority, or really nearly all, of the people who live there have a standard of dress and action have the right to expect it to be maintained. the world isnt america, and isnt mishubad to be michabed every person who wants to shtell their krumme ideas.
2. being in proximity isnt taaruvos, obviously, and thats obviously not what the op was broaching. the problem of shmoozing or having to deal with being squished up against a sem girl was the original post, as i understand.
April 5, 2012 2:05 am at 2:05 am #866038
1. Ummmmm…so dunno if you heard…but that policy isn’t being received very well over there…
And there really is no point, either. We’re in golus. We can’t live the way we really should. Maybe it’s really best to just live your life serving Hashem as best you can instead of fighting a war that will just bring you down.
2. Okay then. And you are convinced that this is some sort of pressing “situation” of epidemic proportions?
April 5, 2012 2:44 am at 2:44 am #866039
its a chilled matzevMember
i don’t know if any of you realize, but i just wanted to bring something to your attention and that is the whole time your all fighting about the girls and the boys..and its not good. any of you realize that right now the “frum” seminary girls and the “good” yeshiva boys are “talking” to each other and having a conversation. this is just so not right.
April 5, 2012 2:48 am at 2:48 am #866040
We’re in golus. We can’t live the way we really should.
We should, at the very least, try our best to. And when we cant , we should, at least, protest to show we aren’t complacent about the wrongs.
April 5, 2012 3:25 am at 3:25 am #866041
Yeah, yeah, tell it to the judge.
April 5, 2012 4:08 am at 4:08 am #866042
You want to protest? protest about poverty in the frum community, and its real causes. Then do something to alleviate it. Protest about Derech Eretz in our schools and on our streets, then be an exemplar of it. Protest about the chasm of misunderstanding and distrust between the ashkenazi and sefardi chareidi communities. Protest about discrimination and the need to be mekarev every yiddishe neshoma, and the fact that even though the kiruv movement started in the chareidi community, it is often impossible to marry off a child to an ffb chareidi family if you are a baal tshuva. Any and all of these are situations where YOUR complacency, rather than the actions that you suspect maybe, possibly might happen between two people in full public view, can actually be overcome and the situation improved.
April 5, 2012 4:37 am at 4:37 am #866043
Yeah, yeah, tell it to the judge.
Be more afraid of the judge upstairs than the ones downstairs.
April 5, 2012 5:30 am at 5:30 am #866044
protest against people that are knowingly feering shello al pi derech ahtorah! Oh, that doesnt qualify, must not be importnant.
April 5, 2012 6:17 am at 6:17 am #866045
Its a chilled matzav-
“any of you realize that right now the “frum” seminary girls and the “good” yeshiva boys are “talking” to each other and having a conversation. this is just so not right.”
Um… I say, if ur talking to a stranger of the opposite gender at that stage of ur life, your not a “frum” girl or a “good” boy when acting that way. I’m not saying their goyim and don’t eat their food however, they lose that title because “frum girls” and “good boys” don’t do that.
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