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I have been going out with a girl who I thought she had the most amazing middos and we had the same life goals and there is a lot of chemistry between us. I have a Rabbi who I am very close to and has done a lot for me and my family. This Rabbi was our dating coach throughout the time that we were dating and he helped us both a lot. On our last date we had a talk and she informed me that my Rabbi has spoken to her a few times in ways that offended her and that she doesn’t like his style so much and that even though she respects him she does not want him to be our Rabbi if we end up getting married. She said that she doesn’t mind if I stay in touch with him and ask him for his advice but that she doesn’t feel comfortable with following him herself and that she would want us to have a different family Rabbi. Now this Rabbi has done so much for me and my family and he spent hours counseling me and this girl seperately while we were dating and I am discusted by the fact that she doesn’t even have HaKarat HaTov to him that she would even think of saying something like that. Also, as the husband halacha would be my responsibility so I don’t even think its ok for her to tell me who to follow(or who not to follow). I am very close to this Rabbi and since I see that she doesn’t value Daas Torah as much as I do, I am thinking of breaking up with her. Also I want to discuss with my Rabbi how she feels about him but she is begging me not to because she says she will never be able to face him again if I tell him. What do you think I should do?
Um… Ask your Rebbe.
Wow talk about a modern day problem. I don’t think it’s a hacaras hatov issue. I can have gratitude for someone without having to allow them to run my life. Also, She didn’t say that you can’t go to him, just that she isn’t comfortable. That’s not outrageous. Sounds to me that she came up with a good compromise and the ability to compromise is maybe the most important quality in a spouse.
I’m not sure what is meant by a family rav. Chicken shilos? Shalom bayis? You can have more than one Rav in your life, a personal one and a family one. Does any one Rav have the time for all your questions?
I think it’s a mistake to begin with to be dragging your woman to your rabbi. The way it’s supposed to work is that your wife asks you and you ask your rav when you can’t answer. Maybe that will happen more as you get more mature and learn to tackle life’s challenges on your own. That can be tougher I admit when one is young in this crazy world of ours. I don’t want to sound like an apikorus here but you are supposed to use your own brain in life and to run your household. The gadol hador can’t do that for you in part because he’s not in your house, not close to every nuance of every issue. So yes rabbinical guidance is very important but rabbis don’t run your home on a day to day basis. The husband and wife do and they need to be able to work together, to hear each other, to get along, to compromise.
So I wouldn’t get too worked up about this; although it would be interesting to know what was said that was inappropriate. Maybe she’s being a little oversensitive. People today are way too thin skinned. Maybe he really was inappropriate.
I dunno- suppose after you were married your rabbi said something that offended her so much she couldn’t ask him shailos–what would you do then? Just say “I’m in charge of halacha and I say you will listen to him?” Thay doesn’t sound like a very good family dynamic.
Talk to her. Figure out what her concern is. Then come to a solution that both of you can accept. Think of this as an apportunity to see if you are both ready to be married to each other. If you can’t figure this one out, chances are you won’t be able to figure out what school to send your kids to either.
Also I agree with 42
I think you need to elicit from her exactly what he said that offended her so much. There may be so much more to this than you have been told, and perhaps it might alter your own thinking about the wisdom of his being your rebbie. She needs to be utterly candid with you.
Just as an aside, sometimes women have a better intuition about certain things than do men. We read body language, we interpret signals differently, and even Avraham Avinu was told by Hashem to listen to all that his wife said, regarding Yishmael and Hagar. This young lady could be noticing things that you as a man, have not. Or, this could all be conjecture and she may be overreacting to something completely innocent.
In either case, you absolutely MUST have a candid talk with the young lady, and find out what’s bothering her. Communication is THE most important thing in a developing relationship, and if she cannot be honest with you about her concerns now, then she will not find it easier in the future.
After you talk to her, then I think you need to speak with the rabbi, and get his perspective. He may be unaware of something he said or did that bothered her. Or he may not have done or said ANYTHING that should have bothered her. Find out.
If she feels uncomfortable with your Rabbi, she will have a hard time respecting his opinions, especially when they are contrary to hers. Disagreements in marriage can come up often, so it is important to choose a Rabbi that you BOTH feel comfortable with and respect.
It is wise to either judge the Rabbi favorably (perhaps his intentions were not as she percieved it) or have the Rabbi apologize for hurting her feelings.
Once married, she probably won’t be talking to him directly.
“I think it’s a mistake to begin with to be dragging your woman…”
The feminist in me is groaning.
Most of the posters, in my opinion, have already nailed it, figure out exactly what he said and move on from there.
But I think what also comes into play is where you plan on living. If you’re living in a different local then its really a non-issue because a person for the most part needs a local rav. If you do plan on living close by then its something maybe to be concerned about.
Definitely not a hakaros hatov issue though.
Aseh Lecho Rav. You need one Rav who is your go-to for all life’s major questions. Do not deviate. And as your Rav what to do in this case.
Talking to your Rabbi about the fact that she doesn’t like him, especially when she told you not to, is a serious violation of Lashon Hara, Ona’as D’varim, Halbanas P’nei Chaveiro, and probably many more.
Sam, if I said to you “don’t tell popa_bar_abba that I made his pot fleishig” would it be Lashon Hara for me to do so? There are situations where one must “violate” such requests and this to me sounds like one of them. This is his personal Rav who has been his dating coach, etc and now he has a serious “dating shayla”. Though perhaps in this situation, because the Rav is personally involved in the shayla, he should ask a different Rav.
He should probably first try to have an open conversation with his woman (that was for goq) about what exactly she doesn’t like about his Rav. If she doesn’t agree with some of the Rav’s hashkafos then they are going to have issues going forward in marriage as I assume this guy wants to run his home based on his rebbe’s hashkafos. As has been discussed elsewhere in the CR, in general couples will follow the husband’s halachos. The guy here should explain to his potential kalla that when it comes to halacha, you can’t just pick and choose rabbanim – if you have a Rav who you have always followed, you should continue doing so unless there is a very good reason to switch such as the Rav ch”v going off the derech. If the wife isn’t going to respect her husband’s Rav’s opinion then the husband is going to have a hard time getting her to follow all the halachik of this Rav.
I don’t think “hakaras hatov” is necessarily the issue here. It sounds like the Rav has been very helpful to the couple but for whatever reason the young lady felt that he was rude or something and is uncomfortable with him. It is very possible that this was a simple misunderstanding between the girl and the Rav. Which is why the guy needs to speak to her to find out specifically what bothered her and then needs to speak to a Rav (possibly this one, possibly another) to see whether her complaints are valid.
42: The woman can talk to him about it because it affects their life. She can say she doesn’t like or feel uncomfortable with him for whatever reasons. She can’t tell the world, but she can tell the guy she is interested in marrying because it affects the potential marriage. If she wants to discuss it with the Rabbi, she can.
But him? What right does he have to tell the Rabbi what someone else feels about the Rabbi. It doesn’t affect the Rabbi at all. It’s none of the Rabbi’s business who likes or doesn’t like him. That’s what Lashon Hara is.
Sam2 – One is not permitted to hate another Jew in his heart. One is REQUIRED to rebuke a person who hurts his feelings. I am not recommending that he go behind her back. Rather, he should encourage her to bring up the issue.
Sam, aseh lecho rav. If this rov is his rov as in aseh lecho rav, then this is the rov he needs to ask this shaila, especially as this is a major life event (forcing to change the rav of aseh lecho rav).
Lior (Joseph): Aseh Lecha Rav is not a Hetter for Lashon Hara. We’re not Catholics, thank you.
Sometimes it really is about style, not hashkafa. Some people don’t have EQ and say things that are taken the wrong way, even if they don’t mean it that way.
I had the opposite problem. This girl I ddint want to get engaged to only wanted me because of my rav. I told her to marry the rav.
<The feminist in me is groaning.>
The Jew in my is groaning that there’s a feminist in you.
So its unjewish to think that woman are not property?
ok ill change my statement
the humanist in me is groaning.
Feminists are people too!
wow goq how many people do you have inside you? are you schizophrenic? jk 🙂
but yeah i think you need to talk to her honestly. i can imagine that her taanos are not coming from nowhere, and she seems very sensible by the way she is trying to compromise. before you get all hurt and break off the whole thing, try to view things from her perspective- “ad shetagia limkomo”. which, by the way, is good advice for life imho.
lots of big deals come from small misunderstandings…
My mom always warned not to marry a guy and expect to change him after marriage from his old habits.
MyTurnAtBat,
You REALLY dont understand what he meant by “family rov?” WOW!
A family MUST have a rov they are in touch with and are able to ask shaylos since they come up all the time, especially in the beginning.
Dare I say I hope you and your other half didnt guess wrong because that doesnt bode well for the halachik status of the offspring.
All suggestions above are valid. To add two.
There are Rabbis that are known for all types of things (monetary issues, science matters, chinuch etc.). In sticky situations, often one’s personal rav will defer to such a posek or such. In this case, a well regarded rav in these matters [ie dating/chosson issues] (I can think of the mashgiach of Long Beach, forgetting his name at moment or others) can be counseled with full privacy for your Rav and kallah. This is of course daas torah.
Another important note:
You are very upset (can tell from your post). Calm down and note the opportunity. This is a great lesson for marriage. Often, the other spouse upsets the other because of a matter that is unclear (in this case, you don’t even seem to know what problem your wife had!). The wrong thing is to close down and fill in the blanks with assumptions (ie she doesn’t have respect for daas torah or the halacha that the man is in control of halachic matters). And even if the matter is bad (ie your kallah’s points are lackluster), you still should not get upset. Please note, this is not a knock on you. It’s human nature. But you need to get ready for marriage now. Use this sensitive topic that is hard for you (this rav is very close and likely is a great person) to test yourself not to get upset with your wife. Try to have the follow up conversation with her but with a voice behind you alerting you to be patient and understanding. When you are engaged its not so hard. You do it, and then go back after to your dorm, apartment, or house and you’re single again. When you get married, you don’t go anywhere. The hole is dug and will just grow. Hashem wants YOU to grow, do it!
Hatzlacha Rabba.
Thirdly, maybe have the conversation at a restaurant or place that you know your kallah enjoys to lighten the mood and don’t start the date talking about it!
If you are thinking of breaking up because of this instead of trying to work hard and figure out the solution you probably have many other issues about this relationship and just using this as an excuse to break up.
<You REALLY dont understand what he meant by “family rov?” WOW!>
My wife comes to me. I go to my Rav. That’s the traditional way and the way we work it in our home. So no we don’t have a “family Rav.” It’s interesting to see how new fangled practices become looked upon as imperatives.
<She got offended by him for no reason and the fact that she doesn’t want him as a Rabbi after all that he did for us shows that she is judemental and unappreciative.>
Gratitude has nothing to do with comfort with a person. In fact that’s the whole point, a person needs to show gratitude even to someone they can’t stand. I hear nothing that says she isn’t doing that.
If I see anyone being judgmental it’s you.
Since nobody on this board knows what the rabbi actually said, it’s hard for us to know if it was nothing. But know that people today in general are very thin skinned. So if it was over nothing, nothing new about that and no reason not to continue with her.
“She got offended by him for no reason?” Did she tell you this or are you dismissing her reason as unimportant? If she said there was no reason, she may be covering up the true reason.
Again, none of us knows what happened here. Please encourage her to be frank about what she perceived. It is entirely possible that either a) you will actually agree with her and think that perhaps you need to look for another Rov, b) you will be able to help her see that she might have misunderstood or overreacted (after first validating her discomfort to her, i.e. “I can see you are very upset by this situation…”), or c)you will speak to the Rov and explain that whatever he said to her made her uncomfortable and you would like to understand what really happened, what his intentions were, and clear up any misunderstanding, if that is still possible.
Of course, there is one more possibility – she is a really hyper-sensitive person and the Rov did and said nothing objectively offensive, but he caught her at a bad moment. If that is the case, she still needs to understand that, and you have some thinking to do about your relationship. Hatzlacha rabbah.
Let him be your Rabbi and not hers.
rebbedovid1, you are completely correct.
Reb Dovid,
If all else is well between the two of you and this is the only real issue, I wouldn’t think it’s wise to drop the shidduch because of it.
It depends on what kind of rav you want him to be, but if he’s involved with her, she needs to be comfortable with him. I doubt she’ll care if he is only paskening shailos about kashrus and the like, but if it’s anything more personal or hashkafic, SHE needs to feel comfortable with him.
I actually think she handled it pretty well. She is not telling you that YOU have to in any way limit your sheichus to him. She is telling you that she is not comfortable having him as her mentor.
For the record, don’t rely on anyone to make the decision for you. Not this rav. Not any other Rav. Make sure you have the spine to make your own decisions.
bym: On many issues it is a posek or rav that needs to make the decision. This is an issue of aseh lecho rav and should be decided on with his rav.
Lior I see that you commented on this topic 4 different times to say that the guy should ask his Rabbi about this. I agree with your point but if the guy tells the Rabbi how she feels about him then the Rabbi might have a different view about this girl and think badly if her and also the girl will be very embarrassed of him. I think that the guy should talk to a different Rabbi about this. I think that if the guy really thinks that she is a good girl then he should respect her and compromise with her on this topic. If she would say to cut the Rabbi out of his life completely then I would understand and maybe I would be a little concerned. But I think that if she felt offended by it and she still felt that she was ok with the guy being close to him and maintaining a close relationship with him then it shows a lot about her. If it bothers the guy so much that the girl doesn’t want his Rav to be their Rabbi and he wants to break up with her then that’s his choice and it should be respected but I see no reason that he should be saying that she is judgmental and doesn’t have Hakarat HaTov. I hope that everything goes well for them and that Hashem will give them both the clarity to make the right choice.
<she is a really hyper-sensitive person>
Who today isn’t hyper-sensitive? We are a bunch of cry babies. He’s also being hypersensitive. Look at the title of this whole discussion ‘she wants me to change my rabbi.’ No she doesn’t. She just doesn’t want this rabbi as her rabbi. (Not sure why a woman needs a rav).
The irony is that you are going to find that the rabbi doesn’t have so much time for you as time goes by. I imagine that now you are in school or recently out of school. A lot changes over time. Rabbis will come and go. The spouse remains. If you have a person you like, hold on to her. You may not find another.
I’m curious, what does your Rav say about all this?
MyTurn, you’re not sure why a woman needs a Rav?
Perhaps someone would like to find and bump that famous thread where PBA and friends tried to determine whether women actually are Jewish. I’m sure you’d have a lot to say.
<MyTurn, you’re not sure why a woman needs a Rav?
Perhaps someone would like to find and bump that famous thread where PBA and friends tried to determine whether women actually are Jewish. I’m sure you’d have a lot to say.>
I’m not following you.
A woman needs a father. A woman needs a husband. That’s the way it has worked for thousands of years. You think your bube’s bube had a Rav?
It’s not tznius for women to be marching off to rabbis. This is a new phenomena.
<Dare I say I hope you and your other half didnt guess wrong because that doesnt bode well for the halachik status of the offspring.>
That comment speaks to the degradation of the Jewish people for all sorts of reasons. Is Jewishness that much in question today? Wow. My bube was as yiddish as they come, from a shtetl.
I didn’t say we have never spoken to rabbis in our entire lives. But there’s a time and place for that. Today people attach rabbis to their hips and try to get them to run their lives. These rabbis may have less life experience than any of us. Or do you have daily access to the gadol hador?
Look at this thread. This young man has found a nice bas yisroel to marry and he might trash the whole thing because he wants some kind of marriage consisting of 3 people.
It seems that you’re being hypersensitive and at the same time (possibly for that reason) being very dismissive of your maybe-kallah’s feelings. (It’s so hard to find a good term for this kind of relationship…) If I were her, I wouldn’t appreciate having my concerns being made so light in your eyes. You can sympathize and say that even so he is an important person to you, but completely dismissing them is a bit cold.
If she said “him or me” and you picked him then that would be interesting in itself, but the fact that she’s NOT making an ultimatum and you STILL want to pick the rav is even more so.
MyTurnA,
And b’michilas kvoid haifagirl (who is awfully quiet these days),
One phenomenon
Many phenomena
You are welcome.
Reb Dovid,bit sounds to me like you are looking for an excuse to break up with this girl. Give her her name so I can call her and warn her away from you. You sound archaic and selfish, not to mention absolutely and completely intolerant, and no one should have to live with that. I hope you and your rav are very happy together.
RebbeDovid1- Did you chose your rav because of your gratitude towards him, or his competence? If it was due to hakaras hatov, I’d tell you to reevaluate your decision on whether he should be paskening shailos for you. This girl feels that based on what she heard from him, she does not feel he is a competent rav. She does not plan on controlling you, which is why she did not tell you to take another rav. She however, for shailos which she will want to ask a rav, does not trust him to be the one to answer. You may not be sensitive enough to understand what was “off” with your rav’s remark, or she may be too sensitive. That’s irrelevant here.
My typical response to this type of thread would be that there is not enough information provided to be able to properly assess what is going on and provide good advice. You provided us with the information that you chose to provide, however, and asked us to comment, so here you go.
My advice to you: this girl deserves better. And the next time you go on a date, please wear a sign that says, “Hello, my name is _____, and I will be abusive to you after we are married!”
She has done nothing wrong by you. She went to your rabbi and acted politely to him. She is putting no limitations on your contact with him. She has shared her feelings with you honestly and openly, and made a very reasonable request of you.
Your response? You’ve questioned her good middos. Accused her of being judgmental, ungrateful, and unappreciative. Dismissed her feelings and concerns. If this is how you plan to conduct yourself in marriage, then your “hours of dating coaching” by this rabbi have been a complete waste. You are not ready for marriage.
Imagine that after you are married, you perceive that your father-in-law is acting rudely towards you when they are visiting. It hurts your feelings, and makes you uncomfortable enough to tell your wife. Would you want your wife to respond, “that’s ridiculous! He’s been nothing but polite to you, and you are so ungrateful to even say that after all he’s done to help us!” I don’t think so.
golfer
thank you
but you have to admit phenomenon sounds more plural, like alumnus
<The fact that she wants me to change my Rabbi for her shows that she doesn’t value Daat Torah. Don’t you think so?>
No. If she didn’t respect rabbanim in general, if she saw no occasion to consult with rabbanim ever in life, if she didn’t look to the views of gadolim on the major matters affecting the community, if she didn’t respect Chazal (heaven forbid) that would be another matter.
You are under no obligation to follow any one rav, particularly in personal matters, particularly if he isn’t a major figure.
No.
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