YWN Coffee Room » Litoeles H'rabim!

Help Me Forgive

(27 posts)
  • Started 7 months ago by am yisrael chai
  • Latest reply from observanteen

Tags:

No tags yet.

  1. am yisrael chai
    We await your rejoining us!

    Real mechila when you've been seriously wronged is tough to do.

    I may have THOUGHT I was mochel, but I realized I still remember and feel it.

    Now I know that Hashem forgives you if you forgive others, and I know that it's healthier for you yourself to let it go.

    I am also aware that the person is a shaliach from Hashem.
    And the person is not asking for mechila.

    But realistically, how has anyone here actually been successful with the really bad ones with irreparable damage that has been caused to your family? Where you remain with nothing but goodwill towards them?

    I really need to get this done, especially at this time of year.

    TIA

    Posted 7 months ago #
  2. observanteen
    trying to shteig in midos

    I once had a real hard time forgiving someone who literally made my life miserable. I was a young teen, and somehow, she turned ALL of my friends against me, spread rumors like I had a breakdown r"l etc. When I thought I really forgave her, somehow, the pain always came back.
    Fortunately, two years later, one of my friends realized that I still bore a grudge on her, and let her know about it. She asked for mechilla and I was mochel her. (that in itself made me be her mochel to see that she realized she'd done something wrong). We are currently best friends!
    AYC, I really admire you for forgiving them. I do think however, that until the guilty party ASKS for mechilla, it's very hard to forgive. Maybe you can ask someone to let them know that you feel hurt. Would that work?
    Hatzlacha rabba and a gut yahr.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  3. HaLeiVi
    HaLeiVi is Supposedly not Joseph

    Not only does this person gave to ask you for Mechila, (s)he has reconcile and appease you. If the person does not regret their action, there is no Chiyuv for you to be Mochel. It is also impossible.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  4. devrachel
    Member

    You think about how by forgiving people: your neshama is cleansed ,you go up one madreiga and Adquire great merit for yourself . Every person is a shliach from Hashem and the hardest mitzvos are the source of the greatest reward. By not forgiving the person 100% you become attached to the attribute of din ....you become an accuser like the Satan lo Aleinu and liabable for punishment for delaying redemption like in the kamsa and bar kamsa story were one party refused to let go of hatred.
    Please hasten our redemption and free youself .

    Posted 7 months ago #
  5. devrachel
    Member

    BTW I was a victim of abuse and was never asked for mechila ,I'm pasing a long what helped me grow and heal and live good life B"H! ALL is from Hashem and after 120 we see it all is a test.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  6. happiest
    If your happy and you know it clap your hands!!!

    I also had this problem and asked a rav what to do about it. I think he said something like if you're already asking this question than you've forgiven them. Yes, it still might hurt and it's allowed to hurt still but you've forgiven them already.
    I'm not so sure this makes a lot of sense to me since I really do still question whether I've forgiven them even though like 3 or 4 r''h and y''k have passed and I wonder if there really is a way for me to know...

    Posted 7 months ago #
  7. adorable
    Thin people are beautiful but fat people are adorable...Jackie Gleason

    Did anyone hear Mrs. Goldstein, from the Bamboo Cradle speak about this topic. she said an amazing story. She was a girl in sem and some other girl who was there decided that it was her duty to keep on reminding her about her heritage and where she came from....she got up on a table one day and told everyone that this Goldstein girl is gonna be the last to get married.... because shes really a Chinese.... obviously Hashem showed her who's in charge and she got married years before this girl. One day this girl called her for mechila and she forgave her wholeheartedly. The girl got engaged shortly after and she made sure to be at that chuppa. You have to hear it from her but I was almost crying when she told it to us.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  8. shmoel
    Member

    Haleivi: I disagree. It is very much possible to be mochel someone who neither seeks it nor cares that he wronged you.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  9. I can only try
    ICOT

    It is one of the most difficult things to do.
    “Moderator-80” has an inspiring example, and “HaLeiVi” has a very good way of looking at things on this thread:
    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/asking-mechila

    This may have no basis in reality, but here is a hope that I have:
    If you have a monetary taina on somebody – he owes you money – and one day, feeling particularly generous, you go over to him, and tell him “You know what? That money you owe me – I’m moichel it!” – that’s it; he no longer owes you the money, even if later on you change your mind.

    I’m hoping a behavioral taina you have on someone – he hurt you in some way – works similarly. When we’re davening on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, at that moment we sincerely are mochel the wrongdoer and wish him nothing but the best. Later on, bad feelings may return (we are human), but hopefully at that point min hashomayim there’s no longer a debt that must be settled or “payback” to be given.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  10. coffee addict
    Once killed a Troll with his bare hands

    Not only does this person gave to ask you for Mechila, (s)he has reconcile and appease you. If the person does not regret their action, there is no Chiyuv for you to be Mochel. It is also impossible.

    so why do we say in tefillas zaka that we forgive everyone?

    Posted 7 months ago #
  11. MiddlePath
    Member

    I say that I forgive my father every year before Rosh Hashanah, and I try to do it sincerely, but every year, I realize that I need to say it again. Does it mean I really don't forgive him? I'm not sure. But every year, I forgive him for the past year. What happens the next year is irrelevant. So I will forgive him again for this year.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  12. Sam2
    Member

    Being Mochel doesn't mean you no longer feel pain. It's okay to be hurt and it's even okay to sometimes be upset at the person. Being Mochel someone is acknowledging that they wronged you and saying "Even so, I am willing to pretend like it didn't happen so that this person does not have a strike against him/her in Hashem's chart." There are higher levels and everyone is different obviously, but the minimum form of Mechila is you telling Hashem that even though this person wronged you, you no longer feel that they deserve to be punished on your behalf.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  13. am yisrael chai
    We await your rejoining us!

    Thank you for all your input. You people are amazing.

    This made me think of someone else who didn't even realize I had a hakpada (it was actually a bizayon for a nifteres), but didn't get what I needed to hear...now what?

    Posted 7 months ago #
  14. happiest
    If your happy and you know it clap your hands!!!

    Really strange (I think atleast). I let a friend know that there were still things that weren't 100% between us and that maybe we should discuss it before r''h being that I didn't want to go into it holding a grudge against her, c''v but she didn't answer me at all.
    Does anyone think this is strange? I really wanted to be mochel her and am trying so hard to do without speaking to her but it is very difficult for me.
    Any other ideas of what I can do before r''h?
    Thank you!

    Posted 7 months ago #
  15. cherrybim
    Member

    Without righting the wrong; asking for m'chila is worthless. Even Hashem says, "V'heishiv es ha'gezeila". First you return what you stole, and then you can ask for forgiveness.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  16. adorable
    Thin people are beautiful but fat people are adorable...Jackie Gleason

    I dont know if anyone else ever experienced anything like this but sometimes when your good friend doesnt tell you that she's dating or getting engaged its painful. You are close friends and you told her from the beginning but then when it comes to her going out she doesnt tell you. Its not like she doesnt tell anyone- she told your other friend but not you! so painful!

    Posted 7 months ago #
  17. shmoel
    Member

    No one should tell friends they are dating or about to get engaged.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  18. HaLeiVi
    HaLeiVi is Supposedly not Joseph

    Very often people are embrrassed to reconcile, even though they do realize and regret what they did. It is not hard to be Mochel such a person. In Halacha, though, it only talks about someone who approached you.

    There are many levels of Lifnim Meshuras Haddin. Some tried to Mochel even those that said, or thought, Echte Ve'ashuv. However, there are stories of great men who weren't Mochel people. The main thing is, if someone regrets what he did, and it is after the hurt, you should be Mochel him and don't be an Achzor.

    We all know the greatness of Tzeddaka. When a poor person comes to you, you can give a quarter, a dollar, five dollars or your shirt. I'm sure you'll praise someone who gives the greatest amount, but you can be a Tzaddik without doing that.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  19. Feif Un
    Proud Modern Orthodox

    I have a family member who is a teacher. She worked for a school for many, many years. A few years ago, something happened in the school, and a number of teachers were told they wouldn't be returning the next year, or some left on their own, including my relative.

    After this happened, the school stopped paying them for the rest of the school year. It wasn't because of a lack of funds, it was because they knew they didn't need them back the next year (this was proved).

    A number of teachers went and called the school administrator to a din Torah. He never showed up. The beis din gave them permission to go to court over the matter, and they filed a lawsuit.

    In my relative's case, the amount owed is in the tens of thousands of dollars. She did not join the lawsuit because she felt it was wrong. The people controlling the money never asked for forgiveness.

    How can you forgive someone like that? Who knowingly does wrong, and continues to do so? In such a case, there is no chiyuv to forgive, but still, you'd like to forgive those you don't have to. In this case, I don't know how it can be forgiven.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  20. adorable
    Thin people are beautiful but fat people are adorable...Jackie Gleason

    u only know one side of that story though

    Posted 7 months ago #
  21. am yisrael chai
    We await your rejoining us!

    "However, there are stories of great men who weren't Mochel people."

    Could you elaborate, Haleivi, I'm not familiar with any.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  22. aries2756
    Smartness runs in my family.

    There is a huge difference between forgiving and forgetting. It is easier to forgive than forget, but it is almost impossible to forget if you don't forgive. In addition just because one forgives someone that does NOT necessarily mean that you pick up the relationship where you left off.

    Why is it important to forgive? Not forgiving keeps us chained to that person forever. It takes a lot of energy to hold that grudge and be angry at someone. Choosing never to forgive someone means that you are forcing yourself to remember that person and choosing to be angry at them consistently reminding yourself of what that person did to you. "I will never forgive "x" for ....... and so on. This is a daily process almost from waking to going to sleep. Every morning you wake up and remind yourself how angry you are at so and so because of what they did, and if someone so much as mentions that person's name or you see someone who lives on their block, or goes to the same school, or reminds you of them in some way, shape, or form, you will remind yourself again of why you will never forgive them for........ On the other hand, that person probably doesn't care, doesn't remember, or doesn't even know that you are angry. One of the three, and does not expend any energy in this disagreement at all. While you are busy thinking about them every day, they don't give you a second thought while they go about their business. Which in turn makes you even more upset.

    So look at both sides of the coin here. By not forgiving the "victim" relives the pain over and over and over again, while the "initiator" is not affected by the entire controversy at all and does not suffer one iota from the entire incident. Who is worse off and who is better off? What happens through the process of forgiving?

    When a person chooses to forgive whether they tell the other party that they are forgiven or not, what happens is they free themselves from that prison of pain. They no longer HAVE to remember the hurt and the injustice done to them. They can now choose to put that person out of their hearts and out of their minds. That person is no longer important to them and is no longer a player in their world. This in turn allows them to heal and gives them an opportunity to forget the entire affair. It is impossible to forget the incident as long as you are still angry and choose to not to forgive. No matter how much a person claims that the initiator is not important to them, subconsciously they are because they are the key player in pain process.

    I hope this was helpful in some way, and that you will be able to logically "choose" to forgive even though you can't emotionally choose to forgive. Forgiveness is a choice. "I choose to forgive you, him, her because it just takes too much energy to be angry at you....I can't control other people, only myself and I can't change other people only myself therefor I can't control what you do or did. I don't have to like you or be your friend but I can choose to like myself enough to NOT relive the pain of the incident over and over again. I therefore forgive your lack of common sense, your streak of meanness, your need to speak loshon horah (or whatever else it was) because you are in control of your own poor choices and there is nothing I can do about it other than learn never to make those same bad choices in my own life".

    Posted 7 months ago #
  23. am yisrael chai
    We await your rejoining us!

    Aries
    TY
    "...that you will be able to logically "choose" to forgive even though you can't emotionally choose to forgive."

    Hence the "stuckness." How does one get from point A to B?

    And what if the behavior is ongoing and not a one-off?

    Posted 7 months ago #
  24. am yisrael chai
    We await your rejoining us!

    aries and Haleivi,

    still waiting for your answers when you can
    TIA

    Posted 7 months ago #
  25. kapusta
    CR Queen - “Best of luck. Avoid roasted cabbage, don’t eat earwax, and look on the bright side of life!”

    I have found that for things that don't just happen once and go away, mentally preparing yourself in advance creates a sort of coating so it doesn't get to you the same way. Walk into the situation and think _____ will probably happen three times but its ok.

    (Maybe easier said than done)

    Hatzlacha

    *kapusta*

    Posted 7 months ago #
  26. aries2756
    Smartness runs in my family.

    I'm sorry AYC, I've been busy and didn't have time to look here.

    Understanding that we have choices is the first step.
    Understanding that we can only control ourselves and not others is the second.

    What can we do (I do) in a situation I have no control of? Should I just accept the way things are? Is there anything I can do to fix it? What kind of support would I need to accomplish this?

    If there is no way to fix the situation, do I just accept it? Do I allow this situation to ruin my life and continue to hurt me? Do I choose to recognize that there is nothing I can do about it but choose to give it over to Hashem. Hashem is the ultimate score keeper. He will either make her stop or punish her for what she is doing. Do I have the faith and bitachon to allow Hashem to handle this for me? Do I choose to cut myself loose from this pain and distraction in my life and forgive her so that I can move on and forget about her? Or am I going to be so caught up in it that I allow her not only to control the situation but to control my life and be a part of it, hurting me every day?

    I am in control of MY own actions. I can choose what I want to do. I can choose to NOT allow this person to drag me down into her nonsense. I have three choices here. 1. I can choose to confront her either alone or through halachic or legal means to attempt to force her to stop. 2. I can allow her to control me and my emotions till she chooses to stop on her own. 3. I can make a choice for myself and give this up to Hashem to deal with and cut her out of my life.

    When we choose to move forward and not stay stuck in the past or in the bad feelings or the bad situation, the people around us react to the change in us. In other words if someone else mentions her the reaction would be "I would rather not discuss her, she is no longer a part of my life. Yes I know she talks about me, but for the life of me I can't understand why and don't plan on wasting any energy trying to figure that one out." What will your friends think of that change? After you say it a few times, do you think your friends will still bring her up in conversation?

    If you keep telling them that you don't forgive her or will never forgive her, they will try to make peace, or subconsciously bring her name up to see your reaction. If there is no reaction, there is no purpose in bringing her name up. So if you choose to move on and say "I have moved on lets change the subject", that is one thing less they have to yenta about. You will be putting out the fire at your end and eventually she will have to find another topic or victim for her nasty attitude.

    How do you do it? It is YOUR choice. You have to choose.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  27. observanteen
    trying to shteig in midos

    aries: Wow. Brilliantly put. But sometimes, it's so hard to actually do it in practice. I am currently struggling with trying to push someone out of my mind. At times I'm successful, and sometimes... I just keep on thinking about her, what she thinks about me, how she's doing, is she badmouthing me? It's so hard to get out of that whirlwind of thoughts. I know it's my choice. And in this case I chose to forget...But it's not always easy. How do I just go on?

    Posted 7 months ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.