I don’t like Benjamin Franklin

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  • #1258289

    ¡RebYidd23!
    Participant

    He was a huge racist.

  • #1258312

    Joseph
    Participant

    What’s wrong with racism?

  • #1258323

    Chaver
    Participant

    Why do you think he was a racist?

  • #1258336

    Meno
    Participant

    I don’t like him because he never returns my calls.

  • #1258340

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Benjamin Franklin needs to send me some more photos for my wallet

  • #1258354

    yekke2
    Participant

    Me neither. I find it sort of creepy when grown adults are playing with kites in the rain.

  • #1258358

    yekke2
    Participant

    [T]he Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably [sic] very small… . I could wish their Numbers were increased…. But perhaps I am partial to the Complexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind.

    [W]hy increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America?”

    — Benjamin Franklin

  • #1258359

    yekke2
    Participant

    There is a great danger for the United State of America. This great danger is the Jew. Gentlemen, in every land the Jews have settled, they have depressed the moral level and lowered the degree of commercial honesty. They have remained apart and unassimilated; oppressed, they attempt to strangle the nation financially, as in the case of Portugal and Spain.

    For more than seventeen hundred years they have lamented their sorrowful fate — namely, that they have been driven out of their mother land; but, gentlemen, if the civilized world today should give them back Palestine and their property, they would immediately find pressing reason for not returning there. Why? Because they are vampires and vampires cannot live on other vampires –they cannot live among themselves. They must live among Christians and others who do not belong to their race.

    If they are not expelled from the United States by the Constitution within less than one hundred years, they will stream into this country in such numbers that they will rule and destroy us and change our form of Government for which we Americans shed our blood and sacrificed our life, property and personal freedom. If the Jews are not excluded within two hundred years, our children will be working in the field to feed Jews while they remain in the counting houses, gleefully rubbing their hands.

    I warn you, gentlemen, if you do not exclude the Jews forever, your children and your children’s children will curse you in their graves. Their ideas are not those of Americans, even when they lived among us for ten generations. The leopard cannot change his spots. The Jews are a danger to this land, and if they are allowed to enter, they will imperil our institutions. They should be excluded by the Constitution.

    — Falsely attributed to Benjamin Franklin

  • #1258383

    ¡RebYidd23!
    Participant

    The guy hasn’t done anything for this country in over two hundred years. And he hasn’t taken a shower ever, at all.

  • #1258473

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    It it’s falsely attributed to Benjamin Franklin, who is it truthfully attributed to? And who falsely attributed it to Benjamin Franklin, and how do we know that it was false?

  • #1258472

    Joseph
    Participant

    No one has explained what’s inherently wrong with racism. As Jews, throughout biblical and rabbinic literature, we claim superiority.

  • #1258511

    yekke2
    Participant

    After #1258472, I wonder how long it’s going to take before the thread shuts down.

    Joseph – you pretend not to see the difference between spiritual equality [and lack thereof] to racism? That’s absurd. Why does the fact that one nation was chosen by Hashem mean that people of a particular skin colour should not be given the rights to vote, or basic human rights like anybody else? Why is creed or nationality a reason to be discriminated against, and to be treated as a sub-human? What about Matan Torah allowes slavery based by colour?

  • #1258517

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    The term “racism” can be used in different ways. I don’t know if they are all correct, but if they are, according to some meanings of the term, it’s wrong, whereas according to other meanings, it’s not wrong.

    Negative usages of the term would include:

    1. Making false negative assumptions about a group of people, such as some of the stereotypes people have about Jews.

    2. Treating others unfairly simply because of their race.

    3. Taking a generalization (whether or not it is generally correct) and applying it to each individual in the group even if it doesn’t necessarily apply to each individual.

    Correct usages of the term:

    1. Acknowledging that certain traits might be more widespread amongst certain groups, but making sure to base this on facts and not assuming that these traits apply to each individual in the group.

  • #1258519

    Joseph
    Participant

    I said nothing of the sort. But what’s inherently wrong with claiming that, say, race a is biologically more intelligent than race b?

  • #1258521

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “As Jews, throughout biblical and rabbinic literature, we claim superiority.”

    We claim that Hashem chose us, and if we are “better”, it is only because we were chosen by Hashem.

    This is something that the Torah clearly says and not something that we “claim”. To my knowledge, the Torah does not say that about any other group. There may be characteristics that are more likely to be found in certain groups, but I don’t think it ever says that each person in a particular group has to have that characteristic (although maybe I’m wrong).

    The only possible exception I can think of is Amalek, but even with Amalek, I don’t think it’s so clear-cut. For one thing, b’nei Haman are learning Torah in B’nei Brak, so there clearly are exceptions. Also, I think there is an opinion that Amalek is not genetic but rather, a certain type of person.

  • #1258524

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “But what’s inherently wrong with claiming that, say, race a is biologically more intelligent than race b?”

    Nothing as long as:

    1. You have some kind of evidence for your statement. If you want to claim that the difference is biological, you really need a lot more evidence than if you simply claim they are more intelligent (without making assumptions as to the reason).

    How can you know that the difference is biological unless a reliable study was performed demonstrating this fact? And personally, I’m a bit wary of studies – I’m not sure how reliable any of them can be.

    2. Even if the members of the race are on average more intelligent than others, you can’t assume that this is true of each member of the race.

    Okay, I know the question was asked of Yekke and not of me, so I’ll let him respond now.

  • #1258562

    lightbrite
    Participant

    ZD +1!

  • #1258579

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    That actually is the crux and the meaning of Passover. HaShem chose us, redeemed “HIS” firstborn son, from among the others. We are “racists” in a way, because we believe in this Torah principle. However, our believing in our superiority will not (and should not) cause us to act inferior, mean, hurtful, harmful towards our neighbors. We are busy enough with ourself, we have no need, nor want to malign others. We are separate, yes, completely separate ואבדיל אתכם מן העמים להיות לי, but we are bidden to act gracefully towards our neighbors.

    With our own, we are bidden all the mitzvohs bein adam lachaveiro, many steps above and beyond the “normal”, accepted civility in society.. To our neighbors we act fair.. and we do not seek to harm them.

  • #1258710

    ¡RebYidd23!
    Participant

    You can’t be frum and racist at the same time.

  • #1258719

    yungermanS
    Participant

    i can understand why you dont like ben franklin

    cause he is todays avoda zara- the gelt that we bow down to, let it run our lives & serve it like a god etc…

  • #1258743

    TheGoq
    Participant

    “You can’t be frum and racist at the same time.”

    Being frum does not mean you are perfect in every way, we all have failings and personal flaws, yet if we have fear of heaven and have love for Hashem we have the ability to reform ourselves and do teshuvah . Perfection is not the goal, the goal is to do better today than you did yesterday.

     

    This was too good to  let it through without enhancements – 29

  • #1258756

    ¡RebYidd23!
    Participant

    I mean that real emunah cannot coexist with racism.

  • #1258780

    golfer
    Participant

    It’s a beautiful day in the neighborhood….
    Must be the weather.
    Or all those kneidlach.
    Or all that pizza.
    Everyone is in top form today.
    Goq that was a great post!
    And 29’s enhancements were spectacular.
    And zdad, that good laugh was much appreciated.
    Seconded only by DY’s ML King quotation on the dual /colored screen thread.
    Look it up!
    Worth your time.

  • #1258802

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    -29 Beautiful job!!

    and (RY), I can’t tell when you’re for real or not כך עונשם של בדאים..
    But it depends on how you define racism. In the way I used it – that IS Emuna. What I wrote IS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE TORAH. No perushim, no explanations, no additives.

  • #1258808

    ¡RebYidd23!
    Participant

    You are a very racist mermaid.

  • #1258844

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Thank you 29 and golfer.

  • #1258910

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Just saw ZD’s post now – that is funny! Shkoyach!

    LF – “But it depends on how you define racism”

    Maskim! And exactly what I wrote earlier (but in short).

  • #1258929

    ¡RebYidd23!
    Participant

    I could just as well define “horse” as person who conforms to gender roles and then say that every Jew should be a horse.

  • #1259083

    lightbrite
    Participant

    RebYidd23: Why don’t you write a song about it after Sefirat HaOmer?

  • #1259086

    lightbrite
    Participant

    🍒🍓🌷🌺🌻🌝🍍🌳🌎🐳🍇🐙🎀

    A++++ for the Rainbow Mod-29!!! 🌈

    💞❤🍊💛🍋💚♻🌴💙🌊🔯💜💖🌹

  • #1259103

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “I could just as well define “horse” as person who conforms to gender roles and then say that every Jew should be a horse.”

    Except that there are legitimate definitions and usages of a term and some that are not legitimate. For example, if someone arbitrarily decides to take a word and give it a new definition that he just thought of on the spot and that no one else knew about until now, that is not a legitimate definition.

    In order to be a legitimate definition, it has to either be a definition given in the dictionary or a common usage of the term.

    Of course, if you decide to be like the main character in “Frindle” and spread your new definition of “horse” and it really spreads enough to be a common usage of the term, then it will become a legitimate definition.

    But until then, it is not.

  • #1259124

    ¡RebYidd23!
    Participant

    But your definition of racism is off.

  • #1259185

    yekke2
    Participant

    RebYidd23 – I didn’t really follow the argument.

    How do you define racism? And do you think that being the עם הנבחר is a contradiction to racism?

    • This reply was modified 4 days, 6 hours ago by  YW Moderator-100.
    • This reply was modified 4 days, 6 hours ago by  .
  • #1259188

    ¡RebYidd23!
    Participant

    Racism is about race. Jews are a racially diverse group.

  • #1259293

    rebshidduch
    Participant

    I do not like politics.

  • #1259201

    Joseph
    Participant

    What if Pres. Trump declared that Europeans are an עם הנבחר – would that be racist?

  • #1260499

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Racism is about race. Jews are a racially diverse group.”

    That is true. I didn’t realize that was your point. However, I wasn’t talking (only) about the way that we view Jews but at the way we view others. I had made the point that if being racist means thinking that there can be differences (in general) between different races, then Judaism is racist. There is nothing demeaning about saying that different people are different as long as it doesn’t lead you to treat them unfairly.

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