Lashon Hora in the CR

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  • #614285

    ✡onegoal™
    Participant

    Does posting bad about another CR member constitute as Lashon Horah? Not that I am in any way saying you should, but on a purely halachic level, how would we define it? Does a poster have a din of a person or just a name on the screen?

    #1073849

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Example?

    #1073850

    Joseph
    Participant

    It might depend whether the other poster is anonymous (and therefore negative information is not being said about a person the listener knows who it is) or if the poster is not anonymous, in which case it certainly would be l”h.

    #1073851


    Participant

    Just because you don’t know the identity of a particular user doesn’t mean that no one knows the identity.

    #1073852

    Joseph
    Participant

    Dash: In which case the person being spoken about would fall under the non-anonymous category.

    #1073853

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    OK, I’ll switch to the role of posek here..

    To POST something causing someone, even anonymous, pain, anguish, distress, discomfort through words will be Onaas Davar. The fact that you don’t know him/her and he/she doesn’t know you – HaShem knows and keeps perfect score.

    The question would be if it’s permitted to belittle or denigrate an anonymous poster OFF LINE, where it would never cause Onaas Davar.

    I don’t know for sure, I’d think that too is forbidden.

    As pointed out by the holy Chafetz Chaim, lashon hara is in the written word too. And just because the writer is anonymous, there is a real live person who posted, one is belittling that individual Yid / Yiddene. And regardless if it causes harm, belittling, disparaging a Jew is forbidden.

    so it seem to my poorest of mind

    Froggie the small

    #1073854

    showjoe
    Participant

    and the L”H said here would also defame the persons “name” here in the cr. so even the people who dont know who the user is in real life, still know the “cr person”. so therefore the L”H would be non-anonymous type and be assur.

    #1073855

    Randomex
    Member

    Here are the words of “Chofetz Chaim | A Lesson a Day,” Day 14 (emphasis added):

    All forms of lashon hora are prohibited even when no names are mentioned, if it will be possible for people to determine who is being discussed.

    Well then, if people will not be able to determine who is being discussed, it sounds as though speaking negatively about a Jew is permitted. (This directly contradicts Little Froggie.) Note, however (same source):

    If names are omitted but the story will reflect badly on an entire group of people, it may not be spoken.

    Of course, the same question applies here – are the users of a certain website considered a specific group of Jews?

    ___

    Dash points out that someone else may know who the poster you’re talking about is. I assume this is quite rare.

    ___

    Little Froggie correctly points out that if your words will cause someone distress, there is a problem of ona’as d’varim even if there is no problem of lashon hora.

    However, this does not apply to all cases, such as

    when someone doesn’t use the CR any more.

    ___

    Showjoe answers yes to the original question, to which I say: Says which posek? I wouldn’t just assume this.

    _____

    Even assuming that a poster has the same din as a person in real life, to’eles must be considered. (I don’t know how to’eles would interact with ona’as d’varim here, where everyone can see everything.)

    #1073856

    Randomex
    Member

    Another case where there is no problem of ona’as d’varim – exposing someone as a troll is negative, but it doesn’t hurt their feelings.

    #1073857

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Dash points out that someone else may know who the poster you’re talking about is. I assume this is quite rare.

    I do not assume this. Several posters have revealed that they are friends or relatives of other posters. We have no idea how many others might be as well, but haven’t revealed it. Also, some posters have revealed personal info which may make them identifiable.

    From real life experience, I can tell you that many times, I’ve been told “anonymous” l”h but was able to figure out either at the time, or even months later, who the culprit was.

    #1073858

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Dash – you beat me to that point. something else that actually happened to me, I was talking to someone and made an eye-rolling reference to a poster whom I don’t know (based on comments that were made)and assuming my friend would definitely not know either. The person I was speaking to told me afterwards that they actually know the poster. I felt really awful.

    #1073859

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    does this mean no calling posters trolls?

    #1073860

    Not if you mean it.

    #1073861

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Randomex:

    I sit corrected. Thank you for pointing it out.

    #1073862

    Joseph
    Participant

    Why take the risk? Be nice to everyone and avoid the possibility of l”h, o”d and all other sorts of risks.

    #1073863

    showjoe
    Participant

    “Showjoe answers yes to the original question, to which I say: Says which posek? I wouldn’t just assume this.”

    my previous post was badly worded and did not reflect my intentions. when i saw my post tonight, even before i saw your post, i cringed, realizing that my words meant something other then my intentions.

    i did not mean to pasken the shaila, rather i meant to give my viewpoint and to say that this would lechora be the answer.

    the last sentence of my last post should have said “so therefore the L”H would be non-anonymous type and according to this theory be assur.”

    #1073864

    showjoe
    Participant

    but i think that my theory still stands

    #1073865

    Not until a posek confirms that an online persona counts as a person (because it is used in an ongoing manner as an identity).

    #1073866

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Perhaps say fakert? Ossur until a posek confirms it muttar?

    #1073867

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Comlink-X

    I think the Cafetz Chaim was a Posek.

    He says one should not denigrate the writings of another.. actually (as he writes) it’s from the Gemarah directly – ??? ?? ?????…

    #1073868

    I misspoke, or rather didn’t think enough before posting.

    Showjoe’s theory is logical, and I did not mean to say it wasn’t.

    (It was also the OP’s theory – that’s the reason for the thread.)

    Yekke2 is also correct that if there is a sh’eilah,

    one should not act in the matter until it is resolved.

    Little Froggie’s proof is not correct, though, because I think we can assume that the author of the writings in question is known.

    If it could be shown that they were anonymous writings,

    or written using a pseudonym, that would be different.

    #1073869

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    I “hear” you.

    But, otoh, aside from the issue of LH, there’s the ????? ????? resulting.. (oh yes, I’ve been the recipient of that quite some times). The other party will certainly feel some displeasure, discomfort at reading your words.

    #1073870

    Correct, and I didn’t argue with that when you said it earlier.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lashon-hora-in-the-cr#post-546040

    #1073871

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    WOW!! How do you remember???

    #1073872

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I don’t think Randomex’s quote from Chofetz Chaim | A Lesson a Day Day 14, is actually definitive proof to this question, or in fact is at all pertinent. The question here is if the online identity has a status of a person’s name, and thereby by besmirching it you land in LH territory.

    My own opinion of this is that ??? ???? ????? ?????. In a site like this, and by now most sites, that you sign in with a consistent name and take part in conversations with this identity, you invest a part of yourself into your online name. You care about this name although it wouldn’t affect your Parnassa or good standing in your face2face community.

    Surely it remains a Shayla, and perhaps it won’t be De’oraysa, since you aren’t causing actual damage. But how can you really say you aren’t affecting someone? A person’s character and thought is conveyed through his many conversations. This is the essence of the person. We all know the common posters here and have personal feelings and opinions about them — as real people and not just as the keystroke trigger.

    This is all putting aside the fact that we can’t control the future. Although you don’t know the person’s identity right now, who knows if you will or won’t ever find it out? When you do find it, all the negative revelations will be Chall Lemafre’ah.

    This is also a warning to people who are confident in their anonymity, and go on to post all sorts of private information. You can’t control the future. You never know who will end up finding that stuff.

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