Mashiach > 6000

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  • #609990

    pixelate
    Member

    Lat week, I was listening to a shiur on torahanytime, and someone asked the rabbi about Mashiach having to come at the end of 6000 years.

    My whole life I’ve been told that there is a 6000 year dedline from the beginning of creation for when Mashiach must arrive.

    But this rabbi in the shiur said that it is not so simple, and that others believe that after 6000 years, another world is created, and we start over again (something like that).

    Did anyone EVER hear about this? Is this true?

    #1011384

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    One has nothing to do with the next.

    #1011385

    WIY
    Member

    Pixelate

    Moshiach is supposed to arrive before the year 6000. That’s a maximum deadline. There are sources that say based on Sanhedrin 97a that the world will be destroyed year 6000 and remain fallow until 7000 when Hashem will then create a new world. However I don’t think everyone agrees and if i remember correctly some hold that from 6000 or before until 7000 will be olam Habah (I think this is the Rambam’s opinion but don’t quote me because I’m not sure.)

    #1011386

    gefen
    Participant

    pixelate- I’ve never heard of that. I was also taught since childhood that Moshiach has to come by the year 6000. So according to the rabbi in the shiur you heard, what happens to this world at the year 6000? Does Moshiach come and then another world is created? Or does this world just get destroyed – chas v’shalom – without having Moshiach? Which shiur on Torahanytime was it? My daughter likes to listen to shiurim on there. Maybe she can help me find it.

    #1011387

    If there was such a beleif and the rabbi’s thought it was true, we would of known about it before…..anyway HaLeivi, what does that mean? That there will be qnother world but not at the year 6000??????

    #1011388

    I don’t attach too much value to this.

    Especially after all the various proclaimers of “I promise you Moshiach will come during my lifetime!” (Chabad, Rav Kaduri…)

    If you start focusing on this too much, what will happen when that day comes and Moshiach does not yet come? On day 6000 +1, will you join another religion since ours must (R”L) have been false?

    That’s what many Chabadniks did, by the way.

    #1011389

    pixelate
    Member

    It is one of the most fascinating Shiurim I’ve heard.

    #1011390

    eyefortruth
    Member

    WIY – the Rambam’s Shittah is quite clear in Hilchos Teshuva as well as his Hakdomo to Perek Chelek, that Olam Haba is a purely spiritual place that exists in PARALLEL to our current reality. Mashiach is not a supernatural occurrence, and will happen in this world. In fact, the Rambam says quite clearly that Moshiach will die.

    The other approach (that of the Ramban and Raavad, and Ramchal, and pretty much anyone who subsribes to Kabbalistic thought) is that Olam Haba is a new, physical reality which will replace our current world, i.e. that Techias Hameisim is the starting point of Olam Haba. At least this is how i understand it.

    #1011391

    TheMusicMan
    Participant

    The whole idea of Moshiach’s coming is that we don’t know the date.

    Achakeh lo b’chol yom sheyavo

    We do know when he will definitely will have come, and that’s by the year 6000, or 2240 CE.

    There is a famous contradiction in Chazal: On one hand there are many stories that state that Moshiach can come any day (Hayom im bko’lo tishma’u). For instance the famous Gemara that if all of Klal Yisroel keep two Shabbosim Moshiach will come immediately, or all do t’shuvah.

    On the other hand there are multiple references to a specific preordained date (Chisheiv es hakeitz).

    There are other contradictions, such as whether Moshiach will be with or without miracles, and if there will be a terrible gzeira or not.

    Nu?

    The answer is that there actually are two dates, B’Kitzo and Achishena.

    If everyone does Teshuvah and merits the geula, it will happen miraculously and before its preordained time. This is Achishena

    If nobody changes by the preset time (the keitz) Hashem will “…Bring a king (leader) upon them whose gezeiros are as difficult as Haman’s”, to quote the Gemara in Sanhedrin, and everyone will be forced to do Teshuvah to save themselves, out of fear!

    For a more in depth discussion see the Sefer “Otzar Acharis HaYamim”.

    (And yes, it has a haskama from R’ Chaim Kanievsky)

    #1011392

    Sam2
    Participant

    There are Gemaros that assume that Mashiach has to come by the year 6000. There seem to be Gemaros that don’t assume that. There are Gemaros that give earlier deadlines than the year 6000 that have already passed. We just need to wait for him whenever it comes and hope that it’s as soon as possible. (The Rambam has a letter explaining the need for deadlines, Ayein Sham V’hameivin Yavin.)

    #1011393

    gefen
    Participant

    pixelate – Thanks. We will look it up IY”H.

    The Chassidishe Gatesheader – “That’s what many Chabadniks did, by the way” They did? I work with a lot of Lubavitchers. They don’t seem to have lost the faith they had before. Do you know specifically of chabad people who left yiddishkeit after the rebbe passed away?

    Also you wrote “I promise you Moshiach will come during my lifetime! (Chabad, Rav Kaduri…)” Now I’m asking this question seriously; how could they promise? We see it didn’t happen yet. So what does this mean?

    #1011394

    pixelate
    Member

    Sam2- The Rambam has a letter explaining the need for deadlines

    If you are referring to Igeres Teiman, he does not explain the ‘need for deadlines’.

    #1011395

    Matan1
    Participant

    Themusicman,

    #1011396

    Matan1
    Participant

    Themusicman,

    If you take into account the 165 year discrepancy of the calendar, it comes out to year 2075.

    #1011397

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Moshiach will come before the year 6,000. After that the world will be charuv for a thousand years. Olam Haba follows.

    #1011398

    Matan1
    Participant

    I once asked a Rebbi of mine what he would do if we hit the year 6000 and Mashiach did not arrive. He told me that all he knows is that he would still make it to shachris the next day.

    #1011399

    benignuman
    Participant

    eyefortruth,

    I think you have the Rambam’s shittah wrong. It has been a while since I looked into this, but if I remember correctly the Rambam holds that sometime after Moshiach will be techiyas hameisim where people will rise from the dead. That part is in line with most other Rishonim.

    However the Rambam holds that the period of techiyas hameisim will eventually end and then Olam Haba begins where our neshamos will exist without bodies in purely spiritual form. The Ramban and other Rishonim hold that the period of techiyas hameisim is the final period (and therefore is what is meant by the phrase “Olam Haba”) and we will go on indefinitely in physical form.

    #1011400

    benignuman
    Participant

    Does anyone know the makor for the 6,000 year deadline for Moshiach?

    I have seen the Gemara that seems to indicate that the world will only last 6,000 years but there was no mention of Moshiach (and it wasn’t clear if that Gemara was literal).

    Another problem with deadlines is that the Ramban holds that even regarding a good nevua, if the people are not deserving it can get pushed off.

    #1011401

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Mekubalim say that Olam Haba is after this world. Techiyas Hameisim is in this world. Although in Olam Haba we will have bodies, it will still be a completely different existance. The Ramchal explains that the bodies will barely be noticed.

    #1011402

    I once heard that each 1000 years signifys a day of creation, and after that was shabbos…so like mashiach, right?

    #1011403

    eyefortruth
    Member

    benignuman,

    since you say its been a while, ill point you in the right direction. Rambam Hilhos Teshuva Perek 8 Halachah 8. Its clear as day that Olam Haba exists in the now and present, and that Olam Haze will never cease to exist. and if you have a rambam in front of you, notice the Raavad argues. The Rambam understands that Techias Hameisim and th coming of Moshiach are one time historical event that will cause people to finally believe in and serve Hashem. Other than that, everything in this world remains the same. Look in Hiclhos Teshuva Perek 9 Halachah 2 for more detail. I think it would be safe to say that the Rambam would reject any notion of an expiration date on Olam Haze.

    #1011404

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Ramban in Shar Hagmul says that the Machlokes between himself and the Rambam is only about terminology.

    #1011405

    benignuman
    Participant

    eyefortruth,

    The Rambam in Mishna Torah is ambiguous, and he was misunderstood by some of his contemporaries. The Rambam clarifies his position in his Maamar on Techiyas Hameisim. Yes, the Rambam holds that Olam Haba refers to where we go when we die, but because we will, G-d willing, be brought back to life again, that trip to Olam Haba will not be everlasting.

    The Rambam holds that the term “Olam Haba” doesn’t refer to Techiyas Hameisim, but he agrees that sometime in the future Techiyas Hameisim will occur. The people that come to life, however will eventually die again and go to Olam Haba. This second time in Olam Haba will go on indefinitely.

    The Ramban uses the term “Olam Haba” to refer to techiyas hameisim and the post techiyas hameisim period (he uses other terms for where we go when we die). The Ramban also holds that the post techiyas hameisim period will go on indefinitely and there is no second time in a purely spiritual world.

    #1011406

    sam4321
    Participant

    What happened to the shittah of Rav Shmuel bar Nachmani on that same daf in Sanhedrin?

    #1011408

    the-art-of-moi
    Participant

    wow, this is freaking me out.

    #1011409

    Anonymous1000
    Participant

    Don’t have sources on this but I also remember learning that 6000 doesn’t have to mean exactly 6000 and could be around there. Also I believe there is a gemora that talks about history being divided up to 2000 year periods and the last 2000 is the time of Mashiach

    There have been many people who have predicted when mashiach will come and apparently often bad things have happened in those times.

    Perhaps some sects (maybe just Lubavitch) have a strong emphasis on Mashiach. Yes it is an important concept but it is not our lifes purpose. Our job is to learn Torah and keep the Mitzvos. If 6000 comes and goes without mashiach then so be it. We want Mashiach to come so we could keep the Torah butter it is a means to an end.

    #1011410

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Rambam put Moshiach right there in the 13 Ikrim. It is a very important part of us. The Gemara says that after 120 they ask if you were Metzape Leyeshua.

    The Gemara that divides up the 6000 years into units of exact 2000 shows us that it was actually meant very literally. The interesting thing about that Gemara is that we see that if not for that Gemara we would definitely say it is not literal since the Torah was not given in the year 2000. However, the Gemara points to the Bris Bein Habesarim and calls that the beginning of the era of Torah.

    The same goes for many things. Chazal say that even Malachim don’t get the Cheshbonos of Hashem. The Torah says that we were in Mitzrayim for 430 years, while we were only there for 210 years, and the heavy work was for 86 years. When Avraham Avinu was foretold about these 400 years he might have thought that the actual work was going to be for 400 full years. But Hashem has another way of calculating, that can only be realized afterwards. The same goes for the 70 years of Galus Bavel. While we take for granted that the 70 years goes from the Churban to the Binyan, this was far from simple at the time.

    At the time this Braysa was put into the Gemara we were well into the last 2000 years.

    #1011411

    kkls45
    Member

    I once heard that if we do Teshuva and are deserving of Mashiach, then he will come before or at the year 6000(whenever we deserve it.) However, if Klal Yisroel is not deserving of Mashiach by then, Hashem will destroy the world and recreate it starting again from year 1 so that the Jews will have another 6000 years to become deserving of Mashiach.

    #1011412

    shmoolik 1
    Participant

    our religion as far as I understand it is about keeping mitzvot between man and his fellow and between man and G-D

    by keeping His mitzvot we better this world belief in moshiach

    is one of the 13 principles of the Rambam but not a mitzva

    in Ellul we must get ourselves ready for Yom Hadin by Tikun of our selves and community we should not be busy with chishuv haketz but Tikun Haolam

    kesiva ve chasima tova

    #1011413

    ED IT OR
    Participant

    Avoda Zorah 8/9/10

    the world is a 6000 year metzius.

    first 2000 desolate

    second 2000 of torah

    3rd 2000 yemei hamoshiach.

    #1011414

    Sam2
    Participant

    It’s on a related issue (though not this one directly), but see T’shuvas HaRashba 1:10 (maybe it’s 1:9).

    #1011415

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    ??????? ??’ ??????? ??????? ??? ???????

    I’m pretty sure this counts as ??????

    #1011416

    tzaddiq
    Member

    he is coming today.

    wait for him.

    ???? ?? ?????? ??????

    #1011417

    tzaddiq
    Member

    the last words in last week’s haftorah was. ??? ?’ ???? ??????” (?????? ?’ ??

    chazal learn out that there are 2 potential zemainim for moshiach to come. if we are zoche, he will come ????. if not -??????- he will come at the end of 6k

    #1011418

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    What is written in a Gemara is not Nistaros. Let’s also not forget the actual meaning of that Pasuk, which is that we can not be responsible for what people think, only for what they do and say. Using that Pasuk to discourage some people from learning certain areas of the Torah when they are not ready for it, is cute and even a worthwhile cause. It is not the actual meaning of the Pasuk, however, that it can be applied to normative Mesorah on standard topics.

    The Gemara in Shabbos 31 says,

    ??? ??? ???? ???????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???”? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???”? ?? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??

    It’s a Mitzva, and it seems to come before advanced learning.

    kkls,

    There is a set deadline for Moshiach whether we deserve it or ?”? not. If we are Zoche then he will come before the latest deadline. If we are Zoche then Moshiach ben Yosef will live. If we are Zoche then Moshiach will come riding high. This deadline has to be before the year 6,000 since that is the end of the world. The concept of the world starting over is mentioned in the Rishonim but is not related to Moshiach. Moshiach will come, no matter what.

    May it be the will of Hashem that we all merit to greet Moshiach very soon.

    #1011419

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    ???? is not at the end of 6,000. The time of ???? is not a known time. It is a predetermined time. ?????? is that he can come anytime (during the last 2,000 years).

    #1011420

    Lost1970
    Member

    I believe he is coming in the year 2240 CE. That will be a time of absolute plenty and much better technology then today. On a scientific forum, I can list technological issues that still need to be perfected by that time for a world of unlimited resources.

    The main question is the spiritual one — who will rise to eternal life? Who will rise to eternal suffering? Who will disappear?

    What will be the fate of semi — observant Jews?

    #1011421

    147
    Participant

    226 years left. Very much nearer than our Ovos who had some 4000 years left.

    #1011422

    WIY
    Member

    Lost1970

    We are supposed to believe that he can come at any moment if we are worthy. Our Rabbis have said for many years now that Mashiach is close. Hopefully this is the year.

    #1011423

    Sam2
    Participant

    I’ve actually wondered why many in the Yeshivish Olam never strongly picked up the chronology controversy. That could put the possible deadline at 40 years away.

    #1011424

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I don’t think Reb Schwabb stuck with that theory.

    #1011425

    Lost1970
    Member

    >> Lost1970

    >> We are supposed to believe that he can come at any

    >> moment if we are worthy. Our Rabbis have said for

    >> many years now that Mashiach is close. Hopefully

    >> this is the year.

    Thank you. I am not an expert — I am a beginner.

    #1011426

    hudi
    Participant

    We are not supposed to calculate the end. Imagine what would happen if someone said “It is the 6000th year; Mashiach is coming this year” and he doesn’t come? We could have another chet haegel cv”s.

    #1011427

    the-art-of-moi
    Participant

    This thread really scared me.

    Hashem wont really destroy the world, will He?!

    OMH! I am so creeped out right now.

    #1011429

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Rav Schwab wrote that theory as a possibility in a rabbinic journal in 1962. Years later, in the late 80s, he reprinted that essay in the back of one of his ‘Selected’ Books; I think it was Selected Speeches, maybe Selected Writings? Whatever. Either way, he puts in an addendum there, where he clearly says that he did not hold of it then. A bit vague if he meant to be chozer, or if he said it was always meant as a scholarly thought piece, but never meant it l’maaseh.

    Haleivi: The sequence of the 6 questions in that gemara is not necessarily meant as the importance of any one of the questions vis a vis any other. Rather it is darshaning a posuk, V’haya emunas itecha, chosen yeshuos, chochmas vadaas, yiras Hashem hi otzaro. The questions are in the sequence of the drashos from the order of the words, with yeshuos coming before chochmas and daas, so the yeshua question comes first.

    #1011430

    streekgeek
    Participant

    Anyone hear about the blood red moon (occurs very infrequently until recently – when sun, Earth and Mars are aligned, called Tetrad) that is going to be happening 4 times soon – twice on Pesach and twice on Sukkos? Just read an article about how this is hinting to the end of days. Whenever this happens theres usually a significant event by the Jews. Previous examples:

    In 1493, the first Tetrad saw the expulsion of Jews by the Catholic Spanish Inquisition.

    The second happened in 1949, right after the State of Israel was founded.

    And the most recent one, in 1967, happened during the Six-Day War between Arabs and Israelis.

    Google it, it’s fascinating.

    #1011431

    benignuman
    Participant

    In terms of the 150+ year discrepancy, I believe that in the past few decades all sorts of problems have arisen with the consensus Egyptian chronology and various alternative chronologies have been proposed.

    I would not put much stock in whatever the current guess is.

    #1414904

    slominer
    Participant

    If 6000 c’v passes without Moshiach having yet arrived, will that cause a large scale question of faith within Klal Yisroel?

    And if Moshiach does come before 6000, what will happen to the world in 6000 and/or after year 7000?

    #1415168

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    slonimer: If 6000 cโ€™v passes without Moshiach having yet arrived, will that cause a large scale question of faith within Klal Yisroel? I highly doubt it.

    #1415182

    shopping.
    thats right. not only are we by “friday” but late friday like a hour before shabbos ,in the rush right before shabbos.

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