Non-Jewish Jewish Music

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  • #688465

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    yitayningwut:

    It’s actually a Chassidish concept that you can be “Metaher” the goysih music; Mashma that the original is a problem (Not (lev) Tahor?)

    You won’t find anything in poskim because most of them hold music is Assur across the board, some of them even without instuments. It is the modern non-live music that many do allow, due to it not being “halachic” music (the Gezaira did not encompass music from a machine, not an instrument) (and some B’Davka don’t, as they (Rav Shturnbuch?) hold the machine is an instrument, there is a thread already regarding this idea).

    #688466

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    gavra_at_work-

    To your first point. I know it’s a chassidish concept. I am pointing out, albeit as a misnaged, that the concept was made up and has no makor in Halacha, because there’s no such thing as a song which is tahor or tamey. If you make up a concept and that concept generates halachos that the gemara didn’t hold of, then your concept is false according to halacha, period.

    As for your second point, the opposite is true. There was a pretty common sheilah back in the day even for those who didn’t sing/listen to music, and that is can the tunes from the church be used by chazzanim in davening. If you had seen my previous posts you would see I quoted the MB no less, b’sheim the Bach, that there is no problem. So first of all it was relevant, and not only that it was discussed and they said it was fine!

    #688467

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    yitayningwut:

    First point: agreed.

    Second point: That is interesting, as I have asked and been answered that if the tune was used in church during Mass, then it can not be used. If you have a Mekor otherwise (I don’t see your quote in this thread), I would like to see it.

    Thanks.

    #688468

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    The Mishnah B’rurah (53 s.k. 82) says it is mutar unless the song is meyuchad specifically for mass. Therefore if it is a song that is sung both outside the church as well (l’havdil, parallel to the tunes chazzanim use for l’cha dodi and mimkomcha etc., not the actual nusach) then it is fine. He is quoting a Bach (Shu”t Bach haYeshanim 127) and though I don’t have one offhand I distinctly remember that the Bach’s reason that such a song is problematic is because of uv’chukoseihem lo seileichu, (which applies to anything meyuchad for avodah zara, not because of any inherent tumah) which does not apply to regular songs of non Jews specifically because of what I mentioned above that music is a chochmah, and he quotes the gemara in Avodah Zara that “lav minayhu gamrinan”, i.e. the goy didn’t “make it up”, he just thought of it.

    The same halacha is found in Birkei Yosef of the Chida, if I remember correctly it’s in 560 by the g’zeirah not to listen to music after the churban.

    #688469

    emoticon613
    Member

    when i’m talking music i’m talking heavy-metal, rap, and the like. i also include other songs, which may or may not be mutar but any regular old jew doesn’t have the depth to know, so he should ask a sheila. back to the rap and stuff, even light rap that has made its way into the lists of jewish music, is such a low form of music – it’s designed for the worst things, to bring out the worst in people. if one has the sensitivity, he’ll feel it.

    yitayningwut – the music that i hear nowadays is not the music that i listened to then. it disgusts me because of what it is. when i used to listen to non-Jewish music, i wasn’t doing it lahachis, i honestly didn’t know it wasn’t allowed. same for movied and books. those were the only “bad” things i was doing, so these types of songs are not making disgusted at what i was. i’m disgusted at them, not at me.

    #688470

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    emoticon613-

    So it sounds to me you are saying is that it isn’t the Jewishness or the non-Jewishness that really makes a difference to you, but the genre, e.g. heavy metal or rap. I presume it’s the wildness of those genres that bother you.

    Without arguing with you about that yet, I am perplexed. If that is the case, why then are you opposed to Jewish songs that have their source in non-Jewish ones? If the song sounds nice it shouldn’t bother you regardless of who composed the tune, and if it doesn’t who cares who made it up? Why the witch hunt?

    According to your explanation, it would make sense for you to tell the band playing at your wedding not to play wild songs, ones that imitate the styles of hip-hop and heavy metal, but what reason would you have to be makpid on songs with a Jewish source specifically?

    Furthermore, I disagree with you even with regard to these genres. What makes a lot of this music despicable to my ears is the lyrics and the tone of voice of the singers, NOT the actual song. I am no ignoramus either when it comes to knowledge of various genres of music (not that there’s something wrong with someone who is) and I can say there certainly are tunes that I actually think are very nice in both of the genres you specified. It’s the words that make many of them them disgusting and bad, but that doesn’t ‘passel’ the tune.

    ‘Wild’ music is not inherently bad. When it is contained, there is a time and place for it. Whether for some on Purim, or just someone who is in a mood that needs uplifting and can’t deal with cheesy old European style music, (I’m not making fun, these are just feelings commonly felt when one is in that kind of mood) some times people just need to let go. In the proper context, even such music has its place. Though obviously only if the words are ‘kosher’. That is my opinion.

    #688472

    emoticon613
    Member

    i’ll be back later to answer you more fully, but for now – what’s the proper context for this music in your opinion?

    #688473

    I actually just ask my posek if anywhere in tanach goyish music is assured and the answer was no. However, he did say that it is a sensitivity, one of those things “in the spirit of the law”. There can be beautiful goyish music…

    now before one of you mentioned that there cant be tuma in music.. Unfortunately i once heard a goyish real disgusting untznius song and being sensitive to music i heard it and it really bothered me (some people, believe it or not just don’t notice it). how would you explain all the horrible lyrics and music that sounds so angry that is there? Isn’t that what klal yisroel are all about? we ELEVATE the gashmiyus!!!? Priests and nuns don’t get married, we do, monks fast… we eat lavish shabbis and yom tov meals… clothing… the list is endless!

    #688474

    not tanach if anywhere throughout the doros goyish music was assured

    #688475

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    emoticon613-

    A hip-hop/rap etc. style song can be a very upbeat, joyful, funny song, to gladden the heart of someone who is down.

    A heavy metal song (and for that matter a more somber rap song) can, believe it or not, with the right lyrics, speak powerfully about religious fervor to people feeling down. I know of more than one Christian punk rock/heavy metal band whose lyrics are very neutral and could easily be adapted to fit very frum Jewish hashkafos, and there’s no doubt in my mind and heart that Jewish kids with an American taste in music who are feeling down would benefit from such tunes. What makes the genre angry in general is not the actual tune, but the lyrics and the tone of voice of the singer. When that is modified, you can have a very nice song in my opinion.

    Furthermore, let’s talk about other genres. classical music I don’t assume you are nauseated by, and neither opera, except they might not be your taste. Does country bother you? There are a lot of country songs which not only have nice tunes but have very meaningful lyrics – it isn’t about lost love every time. Jazz, when it doesn’t sound like classical music, has really nice tunes to any regular frum person’s ear, it’s just the lyrics that make it not-nice sometimes. (I don’t know where it came from that people who never heard non-Jewish music call any music with a heavy beat Jazzy, when I say Jazz I’m referring to the 20s until the 50s style music in general.) What about the light rock and soft rock? Granted, the lyrics may sometimes bother you, but can you not appreciate any of the tunes? Even heavy rock, it’s generally the words that make the song disgusting sometimes, but the tunes could be adapted easily into regular, upbeat, nice songs.

    I could go on and on, but my point is very simple. I don’t believe you are truly against goyishe music per se. Therefore, if someone plays a song at your wedding which is a cover of some groovy funk song, if the tune fits the mood there’s no reason to be upset. If, however, the not-nice lyrics are sung, or it’s the kind of song that everyone will be reminded of the not-nice lyrics, e.g. a very recent pop song, then it is inappropriate. But I don’t think there is anything wrong for a singer to sing a seventies song from Germany which sounds very nice as long as he changes the lyrics to make them ‘kosher’.

    sofdavar-

    In my posts above I specifically differentiated between tunes and lyrics. Of course lyrics can be bad and disgusting. My whole point was to say that if a singer uses the tune but with different words there is no problem, because there is no inherent ‘tumah’ in the tune, but obviously nivul peh is assur.

    From what you wrote it seems your posek says it is not ‘in the spirit of the law’. I think everyone should follow their rav, and if your rav tells you that you may not listen to such music then you should follow him. But I don’t understand the psak. If there is anything wrong at all, then those who talk about using non-Jewish tunes for davening (sources I quoted above) should make some mention of that. But they don’t, they just say it’s fine.

    #688476

    sms007
    Member

    i didn’t read through the whole thread, so forgive me if i’m being repetitive. soem songs i know of that originate from goyish songs include: Rabbi nachman, and lots of others but for some reason i just can’t think of them now (don’t you hate it when that happens?) My general guideline goes like this: a- could you picture your rav listening to this music and b- if it’s so beaty that when you dance to it, that dance might resemble what you would find in a disco club, there’s a problem.

    #688477

    emoticon613
    Member

    sms – thanks. it’s a good tip!

    yitayninwut and sofdavar – i haven’t gotten back to you guys cuz i’m asking my rav and haven’t yet gotten hold of him. i’m not avoiding you!

    #688478

    EloQuint5
    Member

    As one who (admittedly) listens to secular music, I am okay with the fact that Jewish singers use secular tunes to Jewish themes and even pesukim from tanach. However, there are some songs in the mainstream secular music scene that are about as shmutzik as they come, songs that even non-Jews cringe when they hear it and don’t let their kids listen to it, that are being sung by top Jewish singers today. Of course they don’t use the song itself, but they work it into their intros, throw a few notes into the actual song, borrow some lyrics and change love of person to love of Hashem… I was at a wedding the other day and blushed when i heard the intro of a certain song being played. Immediately (and probably inadvertently) the crowd began moving in a way that was not becoming of them. So even people who don’t know the origin of the song (and it’s filthy, filthy lyrics) seemed to be affected by it. So singers, go ahead, keep on using secular music but please keep it rated PG.

    #688479

    sms i agree 100% if the music is making someone move in a way that is not befitting… you know it’s not the type of music one should be listening to.

    Yita- many things aren’t spelled out clearly, but that’s what my posek said. Maybe i’m incorrect, but i understand that There are lots of things out there that aren’t clearly spelled out yet one should use their natural inherent sensitivities.

    #688480

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    Baruch Levine wrote this tune for another Lecha Dodi song, I can’t remember who sings it, I think it was a Yiddish song.


    BS”D

    That would be Yisroel Werdyger.

    #688481

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    EloQuint-

    Many more people listen to goyishe music than you think. And trust me, your average yeshiva bachur knows when the latest LG song is being played, and it isn’t the tumah of the tune which is making him go wild.

    #688482

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    sofdavar-

    I understand that this is your rav’s position. However the mehalech of my rabbeim is that if something is not mentioned than there is nothing wrong with it, because nothing was as you say ‘left unsaid’. There is only the law and its application.

    #688483

    Kasha
    Member

    The average yeshiva bachur does NOT know when the latest LG song is being played. The average yeshiva bachur wouldn’t even know what LG means.

    BTW yitayningwut, you seem to ignore all contemporary meforshim and Daas Torah when you say you research the historical sources, as if the Gedolei Yisroel of the past 200 years made things up. (This is the impression I sometimes get from your comments. Please correct if mistaken.)

    #688484

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The average yeshiva bachur wouldn’t even know what LG means.

    Color me confused. I have no idea what you’re talking about either. Light grunge? Laid-back groove? Lip-synched Gregorian chants?

    The Wolf

    #688485

    squeak
    Participant

    Who would have thunk, Wolf is your average yeshiva bachur

    🙂

    #688486

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Ah, okay. Upon consultation with my generational adviser, I now know who LG is. You may carry on.

    The Wolf

    #688487

    blubluh
    Participant

    The distinction between liturgical music and that composed merely for entertainment has been mentioned. But, even that distinction can get blurred.

    In the Orthodox shul I attended back in the 70s, there was a brief period when the some of the younger adults would “creatively” incorporate into the kedusha of Shabbos musaf popular melodies heard on the radio and in theater (I don’t think they ever consulted the Rabbi beforehand).

    Probably the most bizarre of the lot I can recall was a visitor who used the title track from the Broadway musical: ‘JC Superstar’.

    The practice stopped not long after that.

    #688488

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The distinction between liturgical music and that composed merely for entertainment has been mentioned. But, even that distinction can get blurred.

    In the Orthodox shul I attended back in the 70s, there was a brief period when the some of the younger adults would “creatively” incorporate into the kedusha of Shabbos musaf popular melodies heard on the radio and in theater (I don’t think they ever consulted the Rabbi beforehand).

    But if you consider the fact that music does tend to bleed through cultures, at what point do you say “this has x% influence from pop tunes and is therefore bad?” I’m not advocating setting kedushah to a Michael Jackson tune, but where is that line?

    Probably the most bizarre of the lot I can recall was a visitor who used the title track from the Broadway musical: ‘JC Superstar’.

    Admittedly, that one is a bit bizarre. But as long as we’re on the topic of Andrew Lloyd Weber, I have to state that the tune of “Any Dream Will Do” from Joseph goes very well with some Shabbos Z’miros. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #688489

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    kasha-

    Regarding your assumption about the average yeshiva bachur, I beg to differ. Although the average yeshiva bachur does not listen to goyishe music, he has heard of artists such as the one I mentioned, and he knows from his not-so-yeshivishe friends when it is being played at a wedding, so he gets excited. I am a yeshiva bachur myself, in BMG, so I believe I am qualified to make that statement.

    As for your second point, I have what to respond but I am pressed for time right now. Iy”h later today.

    #688490

    Kasha
    Member

    The conversation began with your assumption regarding the average yeshiva bachur — which I strongly maintain is completely incorrect. The average yeshiva bachur, aside from as you acknowledge does not listen to goyishe music, also generally does not know the goyishe musicians and songs. Despite any contact he has with his “not-so-yeshivishe friends” (as you put it.)

    Regarding my second point, that is certainly the impression I’ve gotten. You seem at least somewhat dismissive of more contemporary meforshim when you feel you cannot find sources earlier than some artificial time limit (i.e. over 200 years old – but that is just an arbitrary example, I don’t know what your limit is) agreeing with “contemporary” meforshim and/or Daas Torah.

    #688492

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The average yeshiva bachur

    I don’t think “the average yeshiva bachur” exists any more than the “average Orthodox Jew.” The variation of practice is just too wide to presuppose what “the average yeshiva bachur” knows about popular music. In some communities, the “average yeshiva bachur” will know who the latest artists are. In some they won’t.

    The Wolf

    #688493

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    kasha-

    I am not making an assumption. I am looking around and assessing the situation from a very clear vantage point – i.e. being a yeshiva bachur myself in the biggest yeshiva in America. I’m not a fool, and I’m not lying.

    As for your second point, I will get too it later. I need to formulate my answer properly.

    #688494

    Kasha
    Member

    Neither am I making an assumption, but rather basing my comment on looking around and assessing the situation for a very clear vantage point. I really don’t see how you can observe that. Perhaps the folks that you’ve come across like that, gave you an impression you projected on the rest or your own personal bias did as such. Nevertheless, I strongly maintain you are accepting a bad impression. I don’t question your integrity.

    #688496

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    kasha-

    Ok, then let me ask you this: Are you a single guy between 15-25 years old? Are you learning full-time in a yeshiva, and not just any yeshiva, but one regarded by many as the center of Torah in America? Are you surrounded by yeshiva bachurim all day? Because if not, you would be not be wise to say that your assessment is better than mine, and certainly not to lay claim that my opinion is rooted in my personal bias when the only information you have about me is that I have a better chance of seeing this accurately than you do. It isn’t even worth arguing the point unless the answer to the above questions is yes.

    #688497

    Kasha
    Member

    yitay – I met all of the above in the near past.

    I don’t believe you will claim things changed on this issue in the past couple of years.

    Personal bias is a prism anyone can view any issue through. It isn’t something to apologize for, yet it is worth pointing out that possibility.

    In any event, we’re still awaiting a response to the second point.

    #688498

    cb1
    Member

    last night i was singing at a simcha in lakewood and during the dinner i composed a new song and afterwards someone came over to me and said the song sounds very yeshivish i didn’t feel right to tell him that the tune came from a movie that i was watching yesterday right before the simcha

    #688500

    personally i think as long as it doesn’t sound like it once had bad lyrics. then it’s fine. but you’ve got beethoven symphony 9, and acon. there’s got to be a line somewhere…………..

    #688501

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I don’t know where the line is, or should be. I will say that I think it was crossed by the fellow who sang “Hodu LaHashem Ki Tov” in Hallel to the tune “Angel” (Prefer to leave out rest of title) by the Jay Geils band.

    #688502

    jewish girl
    Member

    a rabbi (not sure which one) once said tht as long as when ur listening to the song you dont think of the non jewish song the music comes from its fine but if for example theres a jewish song that playes in the tune of yankee doodle and when you hear the song it makes you think of yankee doodle its asur to listen to it

    #688503

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I’ve never really thought about it, until reading this thread. Shouldnt the effect the music has on a person determine if it is proper or not?

    If something is composed by someone who goes to the mikvah before he writes each stanza, with lyrics that come straight out of Tehillim, yet it leads you to get up and gyrate in ways Hashem did not intend for the human body to bend (OK, I am exaggerating, a little, I admit, but you get my point), that is OK because of its source, but if it is composed by a goy while eating a cheeseburger and the music is soothing and relaxing, or gets you to tap your feet to the rhythim, that is no good (assuming the lyrics are not objectionable) because of the source?

    #688504

    What you say makes sense.

    But don’t forget that there is a deeper spiritual core and root in music that we are unable to perceive with our physical senses.

    #688505

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Kasha-

    I sincerely apologize for taking so long to respond. Things have been very hectic lately and I have not had the chance to be at the coffee room. At any rate, let me respond to your point.

    The Halacha, from the standpoint of Torah Judaism since the time of the Ge’onim, always has it’s source in the Gemara. No one, not a contemporary posek, nor a rishon, has the power to institute new halachos. Sure, every community can make a takkanos, and a rav can issue a cherem, and a minhag can evolve and become somewhat obligatory, but Halacha per se must always have its source in the gemara.

    Of course, the gemara is not so simple. There are various ways to understand many sugyas, and not only must one have good critical thiking and analytical skills, but to say pshat in one line of gemara one needs to know all of the related statements of chazal. This is what the rishonim spent their time with.

    The Shulchan Aruch is basically a compendium of the halachos which come out of the gemara, based on the understandings of the rishonim, particularly the Rif, Rambam, and Rosh. It was not intended as a ‘final word’ on any halachos, but rather as a short summary to assist a posek who wishes to ascertain the halacha from the gemara. The mechaber writes this explicitly in his hakdama.

    Accordingly, no posek truly has the authority to pasken solely based on his understanding of Shulchan Aruch, without knowledge of the sugya in the gemara, for perhaps his application of the SA is completely incorrect. And certainly no posek has the right to issue a psak which is grounded not in the gemara, nor in the rishonim or the SA, whether l’kula or l’chumra.

    I have been taught by my rebbi and by my rav that when approaching a sugya I should learn it with the rishonim, and the Tur/Beis Yosef, and to come up with the halacha from that. If something stated by a later source seems to contradict my conclusion, the I should discuss it with my rabbeim and through pilpul chaverim, and if I still think it is incorrect then ‘ein l’dayan ladun ela ma she’einav ro’os’ – I must follow my own logic.

    Not everyone is qualified to learn a sugya and pasken. One who does not have much background in gemara with rishonim should not even be discussing halacha, they should just follow their rav and not get involved in technicalities and reasons, because doing this with their severe lack of knowledge can cause much harm to the halachic system. This is why I consistently tell people on this forum to ask their rav.

    When I actually debate a halacha on this forum, my intention is for those who are not simply following their rav. It is for those who wish to ascertain the halacha as though they are poskim themselves, though it is not proper in my opinion. As such, I will not back out of an argument because ‘this rav says this’ or ‘this rav says that’, no matter how great that rav is; even if it is someone I have the utmost respect and honor for. A source for me is a gemara, be it explicit, or implicit through the give-and-take of the meforshim over the ages. Blanket statements, even of gedolim, do not count here.

    Everyone should follow the da’as torah of their rav. But that is not what truly determines halacha. It is a safety net for those who do not ascertain the halacha for themselves. We have the right to blindly follow a particular rav, and for the general public this is really the only thing they should be doing. For those who are qualified however, to ascertain it for yourself means to figure it out ultimately from the gemara, without specific regard for da’as torah.

    As an afterthought, being qualified isn’t all or nothing. Once a person has reached a certain level of understadning he might be qualified to pasken a sugya that he knows even if he doesn’t quite know all of shas yet. That is something each person should figure out with the guidance of someone who knows them well enough and is qualified to make that judgement about them.

    Regarding this particular case, I am aware of the sentiments expressed by many people, even rabbanim, about the inherent impurity existing in non-Jewish music. I do not know of a source for this in the gemara/rishonim, and on the contrary, as I pointed out the Sheilos U’tshuvos throughout the ages permitted the use of non-Jewish music by chazzanim. Therefore I maintain that there is no problem with it (obviously not including where there is nivul peh involved), and anyone wishing to refute this claim will have to do so with more than just the claim of da’as torah.

    #688506

    Kasha
    Member

    yitayningwut:

    Thanks for that response; no need to apologize. All should be well. You’ve made various points, I’ll address some of them albeit unrelated.

    The Gedolim in the days of the Shulchan Aruch and shortly thereafter have agreed to accept the psakim of the mechaber and the Rema as authoritative. The Shach writes that one cannot even claim “kim li” against a psak of the Shulchan Aruch. This is akin to accepting someone as your “Rebbi”, where you follow his psakim. This is the same thing that happened when, let’s say, Klal Yisroel decided that the period of Chazal has ended after the 7th generraiton of Amorayim (Mar Zutra, Mar bar Rav Ashi, etc), and nobody from here on in can add to the Gemora. There was no “halachah lmoshe misinai” that told us that the Gemora was sealed; it was the accepted reality told to us by our Gedolim. The same thing applies to accepting the Shulchan Aruch and Rema.

    You wrote: “Blanket statements, even of gedolim, do not count here.” But of course you must realize the Gedolim made their statements in their infinite wisdom, which is greater than yours or mine, using more impeccable logic, thought and all the attributes you’ve described in rendering a psak. Are you saying you can disregard the Gedolim’s pronouncements without any other Godol or source other than YOUR own logical psak that you’ve rendered for yourself? And especially moreso expressing YOUR own conclusions against the Gedolim, with no authority to backup your conclusion?

    Good Shabbos

    #688507

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    kasha-

    I know that this is a common opinion. However, there are those who disagree, and this is the opinion of my rebbi and of my rav. And I’m sure you know the Shach himself argues many times on the psak of the mechaber, so even according to him apparently it isn’t so clear-cut.

    As for your second point, yes. Rashi argues on the psak of previous generations because of ‘ein l’dayan ladun ela ma she’einav ro’os’, and so did many poskim throughout the ages. As the gemara in Chulin (8a) says, if a Talmid Chacham says a halacha which is a chiddush, even against what was always accepted, we don’t throw him out. That isn’t to say the gedolim who said contrary didn’t have reasons. It’s just that when figuring out the halacha we don’t work with that if it contradicts our logic, because of the principle ‘ein l’dayan ladun’.

    One last thing: Obviously by logic I mean a logical conclusion based on the gemara/rishonim, and not simply personal or popular sentiments under the false umbrella of ‘reason’. Such ‘logic’ is nothing at all in the face of da’as torah.

    #688509

    smartcookie says: Songs are supposed to inspire us because they should come from the songs in the bais hamikdash.

    What makes you think the people who make jewish music have any better shot of achieving that if they make it up or they copy? from the fact that they use these tunes, it must be that these people think this was sung in the beis hamikdash.

    DONT DISCREDIT SONGS, DISCREDIT PEOPLE!

    #688510

    apushatayid
    Participant

    To answer the original question.

    Dedi. The tune to his “yimloch hashem” is a Pat Benetar song.

    Negina made popular a guitar solo from “The Doors” which is played often during “keitzad mirakdim” at chasunas sometimes they stick in a few bars of The William Tell Overture.

    May orchestras use “Eye of the tiger” aka “the rocky song” to introduce a chassan and kallah. Another popular intro is from “The Alan Parsons Project” I even heard an intro based on Abbas “Gimme Gimme”.

    Many many jewish songs from many composers and singers have snippets from non jewish songs liberally sprinkles throughout their songs.

    #688511

    emoticon613
    Member

    thanks.

    just btw, for everyone in the coffee room who’s attacked me so far (just kidding), the william tell overture and other classical music doesn’t bother me at all.

    it’s the things like using ‘eye of the tiger’ for introducing the chosson and kallah at weddings. it has no place at a jewish wedding.

    #688512

    lesschumras
    Participant

    emoticon613,

    Why not? Your comment should read “at my Jewish wedding”.

    If all Jewish songs are from the Beis Hamikdash, and all come from the same Jewish sources, why does Jesish music from Eastern Europe, the Middle east and Bucharia sound a lot more like the music of the goyyim of thir region than each other.

    I can’t prove it but I imagine that if the Jeish Rip Van Winkle woke today in Poland fater one hundred yers, he’d recognize the goyish music that some ae Jesish music is based on.

    #688513

    oomis
    Participant

    I said it before, I will say it again: Instead of looking at the negativity of taking a secular tune and putting Jewish lyrics to it, why can you not look at it as an elevation of kedusha for an otherwise nice melody, by infusing it with the Yiddishe tam of words of Tehillim or Shir Hashirim, etc.?

    When I hear Gershon Veroba’s rendition of I Believe the Children are Our Future (a Whitney Houston song from long ago), referring to developmentally-challenged children, it brings tears to my eyes. Uncle Moishy uses MANY, MANY secular tunes (and from kids cartoon shows like Bob the Builder) to make lovely songs that the children remember and sing all the time.

    Try not to be so judgmental of something that is really not hurting you. So what if they play Eye of the Tiger when the Chosson and Kallah come out. In a very frum crowd, most people do not even know the source of the song (and if they do – that means they are listening to that type of music on the radio!)

    #688515

    emoticon613
    Member

    because i don’t agree with that outlook, that’s why.

    and why do you assume that “it is not really hurting” me?

    #688516

    aries2756
    Participant

    I’m really not understanding this or following this. If you like the melody you like the melody. Why do you have to know where it comes from? If you don’t like heavy metal, there is no way you are going to like it if it has Jewish lyrics to it. If you do, then there is something wrong with your taste in music and it has nothing to do with the fact it is a goyish nigun. If there is something wrong with heavy metal then it is improper for goyish and jewish music!

    If you don’t like rap music then you don’t like it whether it is english goyish lyrics or english/hebrew Jewish lyrics. You either like rap music or you don’t. We are talking about the melody/nigun/music here. Music has no inyun of kosher. It is a melody, a series of notes. You either like it or not. It makes no difference if you can sing english words to it or hebrew words to it, if you like the nigun you hum it. If you are an American citizen you should know the words to the National Anthem and the nigun, there is no excuse for not knowing it. AND yes it is in english and goyish but it is the National Anthem of the country that gives you freedoms and the right to live here and enjoy them.

    So again, what is the big hooplah? You have the right to choose the music you listen to and b”h there are many choices, there is rock, jazz, country, hip hop, chassidishe, modern, chazanish, children’s, classical, rap, pop, and more. Some help you exercise, some help you relax, some help keep you awake while driving, some inspire, some are just plain fun. Music is entertaining, please don’t make a religious issue out of it.

    #688517

    lesschumras
    Participant

    emoticon613 said “because i don’t agree with that outlook, that’s why.and why do you assume that “it is not really hurting” me?”

    Your attitude is selfish and mefirst. You have every right not to like Eye of the Tiger and to not have it, or any other song, at

    YOUR simcha. But to decide that because you don’t approve, it has no place at any Jewish simcha is wrong. Not everyone share your outlook. By stating the song doesnt belong at any Jewish simcha, you assume that your outlook is the only one that ounts

    #688518

    oomis
    Participant

    “that “it is not really hurting” me? “

    Because if you are honest with yourself, you will see that it is the IDEA of that music being non-Jewish and played at a simcha, that is bothering you, and not the melody itself. For one second, try to just be a person listening to something beautiful or inspirational. Hashem gave chochma to people besides the Jews, and that chochma allowed them to produce beautiful music, great art, and literature. If there is something that personally offends you because it is not to your taste, so be it. Don’t listen to it on your own time, don’t read it, and don’t go to see it in a museum. But don’t make negative comments that imply that someone else is practically committing an AVEIRA because THEY happen to like it.

    I don’t care for rap music OR heavy metal. But even Led Zepplin wrote a piece like Stairway to Heaven (the one thing I can listen to and not cringe). You can dislike something, but it doesn;t have to hurt you.

    #688519

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “you assume that your outlook is the only one that counts”

    The only outlook that counts, is the torahs outlook.

    #688520

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    lesschumras-

    I think emoticon613’s outlook is incorrect, as I have stated extensively. However, she has the right to her opinion. If she thinks it is wrong she has every right to argue that Eye of the Tiger should not be played at weddings. She has a chiyuv of hocheiach tochiach es amisecha. She’s not being selfish, she is doing what the Torah requires her to do. If you disagree, as I do, you have every right to argue with her and to disregard her position. But to badmouth her is wrong and probably intellectually dishonest as well.

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