Pouring Wine/Grape Juice Back Into The Container

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  • #597268

    shlishi
    Member

    I’ve noticed that whenever leftover wine or grape juice is poured from the becher back into the bottle after kiddush or havdalah, that first the person pours a little more wine/grape juice into the becher and then pours the whole thing back into the wine or grape juice container. Why?

    Also, for kiddush and havdalah must the person drink roiv kois (most of the becher) to be yoitze? If he can’t drink so much can someone else drink it for him?

    #860456

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Some wine is poured into the kos first so that the wine should no longer be “pagum”. Any time one drinks from a kos, the remaining wine is pagum and should not be used for a subsequent kiddush. Pouring some more wine in “fixes” the pagum wine.

    For kiddush, the person who said kiddush should drink a “m’lo lugmov”, but if he can’t, someone else can.

    For havdalah, one must drink a r’viis, to avoid a shailah about a bracha acharona. Actually, one should never drink more than a “m’lo lugmov” but less than a r’viis for the same reason.

    #860457

    Actually, one should never drink more than a “m’lo lugmov”

    Can you explain this? I remember the rabbi in camp finishing the whole cup every week by havdalah. He claimed it was to avoid a shaila about bracha achrona. I knew that it wasn’t necessary to drink it all, but why is there a problem if someone does?

    #860458

    I think he meant that to avoid having to make a bracha achrona you should never drink more than m’lo lugmov.

    But if you are comfortable with thanking G-d for the wine that you’ve drunk, there is no problem.

    #860459

    Thanks, DH, I got it now.

    #860460

    not I
    Member

    The chassidim have a minhag of pouring off wine from kiddush for another reason.

    They want to have kedushsas shabbos in the havdala to take them throughout the week..

    #860461

    shlishi
    Member

    And where does the minhug of first pouring a drop of water from the becher into the wine/grape juice bottle before then pouring the wine/grape juice into the becher, come from?

    #860462

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think he meant that to avoid having to make a bracha achrona you should never drink more than m’lo lugmov.

    What I meant was that there’s a machlokes whether the shiur for a bracha achrona is a m’lo lugmov or a r’viis. If you drink more than a m’lo lugmov but less than a r’viis, it’s a shaila whether or not a bracha achrona is required, which leaves you in a catch-22; if you say the bracha achrona, it might be a bracha l’vatala, and if you don’t, you may have skipped a required bracha. To avoid the shaila, one should either drink less than a m’lo lugmov, and not say the bracha achrona, or drink more than a r’viis and say the bracha achrona.

    For havdalah, to drink less than a m’lo lugmov is not an option (just as one must drink a m’lo lugmov for kiddush), so you should drink a r’viis.

    #860463

    shlishi
    Member

    Does drinking the havdalla kos cause one to grow a beard? Does it do this to women too?

    #860464

    Does drinking the havdalla kos cause one to grow a beard? Does it do this to women too?

    Yes. But most people don’t have the money to waste in boiling down the silver every week after havdallah, so practically speaking its just not worth it.

    Women aren’t able to metabolize silver as well as men, so no.

    #860465

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Does drinking the havdalla kos cause one to grow a beard? Does it do this to women too?

    Yes. But most people don’t have the money to waste in boiling down the silver every week after havdallah, so practically speaking its just not worth it.

    Women aren’t able to metabolize silver as well as men, so no.

    🙂

    #860466

    shmoolik 1
    Participant

    wine used to be very strong and it was mixed/diluted with water mozeg as in the haggadah

    #860467

    moishy
    Participant

    Wasn’t there a thread about this once?

    #860468

    shlishi
    Member

    Derech Hamelech (with DY’s haskama): I got that you’re being sarcastic, but (like last time) am not sure what your point is. Are you indicating that the association beween beards and havdalla wine are fairy tales?

    shmoolik: Are you indicating the reason we pour a drop of water into the wine bottle before filling the becher is altz ah remez fun der alta tzaiten when wine was too strong to drink undiluted?

    #860469

    Actually, I was just being sarcastic lishma.

    But on a serious note, yes it is a fairy tale. There is some type of kabbalistic reason why women shouldn’t drink from havdallah that has nothing to do with growing a beard.

    Also, I can’t source it, but I think that pouring water into the wine has to do with mituk hadin.

    #860470

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Wasn’t there a thread about this once?

    Probably. There has probably been a thread about almost every possible topic, with the exception of specific current events.

    In real coffee rooms, it’s the same way.

    #860471

    real-brisker
    Member

    DY – This isn’t a real coffe room?

    #860472

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY – This isn’t a real coffe room?

    No, but it’s virtually the same thing.

    #860473

    real-brisker
    Member

    DY – I was joking around.

    #860474

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    r-b,

    That makes two of us.

    #860475

    real-brisker
    Member

    DY – 🙂

    #860476

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And where does the minhug of first pouring a drop of water from the becher into the wine/grape juice bottle before then pouring the wine/grape juice into the becher, come from?

    The Ta’amei Haminhugim quotes the Elyah Rabbah that wine brings “y’lala” (weeping) to the world; when water is added, it changes it to bracha. He then quotes the S’fas Emes that wine represents gevurah, whereas water represents chessed.

    #860477

    YakovL
    Member

    DaasYochid:

    “Any time one drinks from a kos, the remaining wine is pagum”

    What is your source for this comment? It doesn’t make sense that while drinking from your own cup (some times it may even be a kos shel brocho-birchas hamozon) it would change into a status of “pogum”.

    I would rather say, while in this original cup IT IS NEVER POGUM, pogum only becomes once it is out of the original cup – unless more gets added.

    #860478

    YakovL
    Member

    Not I:”The chassidim have a minhag of pouring off wine from kiddush for another reason”

    ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? , ?’ ????? ???. ?’ ?????? ???”? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???????. ????”? ?? ??”? ???”? ?’ ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???????

    #860479

    longarekel
    Member

    It is certainly pagum in the original cup and cannot be used another time as a kos shel bracha. It is not pagum with regard to the original bracha, only with regard to a subsequent bracha.

    #860480

    Toi
    Participant

    The MB is mifurash on the subject of kos pagum. With regard to many people drinking from one cup, the shaar tzion says its ok, but if you want to pour into a different cup you must add wine. Or you can pour to another cup and then drink from the kos.

    #860481

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    YaakovL,

    You misunderstood my comment; you made a disagreement out of something which wasn’t.

    #860482

    LeiderLeider…
    Participant

    Food for thought.

    The grape juice bottles are not Toiveled. The manufacturer is not mechuyev to Toivel them because they are merely using them as a means of transporting the grape juice to its consumers, and as such, is not mechuyev Tevila. And for this reason we are not required to Toivel candy dishes and other glassware that we give as gifts to others (think Mishloach Manos).

    It is a given that if you wish to reuse the grape juice bottle for other purposes, that you are now using it as an official Keili, and you are required to toivel it. However, as long as you keep on slowly emptying the original bottle, you are not required to Toivel it (otherwise we would be required to empty our grape juice bottles right away).

    So, for those that pour Kiddush grape juice BACK into the bottle in order to have them for Havdalla, aren’t you in fact “re-using” the bottle to hold this grape juice until Motzei Shabbos?

    Thoughts to keep in mind: A container that keeps food for storage is not required to be Toiveled, however, a container which is brought to the table does require to be Toiveled. (Think sugar dispenser, which needs to be Toiveled, vs. the large sugar container, from which you would pour into the dispenser, which does not require to be Toiveled).

    So, let’s hear it, guys!

    #860483

    Toi
    Participant

    mr. Leider- The poskm say two reasons why youre wrong. 1. The original kli wasnt made to be used many times and your decision does not remake the kli. 2. R moshe says that any kli that is used simply because the thing being stored in it needs a kli doesnt need tvila.

    #860484

    YakovL
    Member

    Longerekel:”It is certainly pagum in the original cup and cannot be used another time as a kos shel bracha”

    How and when is your writing relevent? If one needs a “kos sholem” for the next kos shel brocho, anyway one has to add more wine or water and therefore it isn’t pagum any longer. If you wish to use a heiche timtze that he puts into the cup a whole unpeeled egg to bring it into a kos sholem, how do you know in the same cup it is certainly pagum with the subsequent brocho.

    “It is not pagum with regard to the original bracha, only with regard to a subsequent bracha”

    Question: If a second person who was not yotzei with the mevurech’s brocho, can he make his own brocho and the drinking will or will not be kos pagum (since it is a “subsequent brocho”) .

    #860485

    YakovL
    Member

    Toi: “The MB is mifurash on the subject of kos pagum. With regard to many people drinking from one cup, the shaar tzion says its ok,

    Correction-Could not find it mifurash in the shaar tzion. However, the mishna brurah siman 182 #24 is mefurash

    Question:”but if you want to pour into a different cup you must add wine. Or you can pour to another cup and then drink from the kos.”

    Toi, look up the halocho in the mishna brurah very carefully, I think you are making a mistake. Apparently the halacha is as follows;

    If you pour into a different cup – you DO NOT HAVE TO ADD WINE [siman 190 s”k #4 and s”k #6

    #860486

    YakovL
    Member

    LeiderLeider: In reference to tviloh, your question is based on an assumption that “choslos” can loose its name “choslos” even while you are still using the bottle as a carrier. Perhaps the halocho of “choslos” does not get lost while the bottle is still holding the original contents – even if one adds some kos shel brocho or kiddush wine into the bottle in order to elevate the kedusha of the wine.

    Also, bemechilas kvodchem (“let’s hear it, guys!”) there is a sense of some “gaivo” which is keilu oived avodo zoro, its not kedai as the wine one pours into the bottle won’t make it kodush but yein nesech.

    #860487

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And for this reason we are not required to Toivel candy dishes and other glassware that we give as gifts to others (think Mishloach Manos).

    Actually, if you put food in it, you should toivel it.

    #860488

    Toi
    Participant

    Yakov l- if you pour FIRST, before drinking, after the bracha, then its not pagum. if you make a bracha and then drink and then pour into cup b its pagum. if you drink from the same cup after the same bracha, its ok.

    and you mixed up what i wrote- the MB is mifurash.

    If you pour into another cup- cup b- the wine in b isnt pagum and doesnt need adding. once a cup is drunk from, it becomes pagum. clear enough?

    #860489

    LeiderLeider…
    Participant

    Toi. Thanks for your comments. I would be very obliged if you can point out the two rulings you mention. Would like to share it with my Ruv.

    YakovL. If you think I need to be Moichel you (“bemechilas kvodchem”) then let it be stated for the record that I am not moichel you. I started my post with “Food for thought” and I posed a very legitimate question and I wanted to hear what the Oilem has to say about it. A professional answer, such as the one from Toi, is what I was hoping to hear, not a judegmental rant about alleged Gaiva that you so keenly perceived in me.

    #860490

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is a given that if you wish to reuse the grape juice bottle for other purposes, that you are now using it as an official Keili, and you are required to toivel it.

    R’ Moshe is meikil. IG”M 2: 40, and 2: 137.

    #860491

    YakovL
    Member

    Toi: It is “clear enough” what you wrote and works well lekula almo. However, if you are saying besheim the Mishna Brura, then you should write what the Mishna Brura paskens. Look into the mareh mekomos I quoted and double check if you were more machmir.

    “and you mixed up what i wrote- the MB is mifurash.” I was/am trying to find out what you are saying from a Shaar tzion. Is that the Shaar Hatzion from the Mishna Bruro, as I did not find there what you wrote bishmoi.

    LEIDERLEIDER: “If you think I need to be Moichel you (“bemechilas kvodchem”) then let it be stated for the record that I am not moichel you”. ??? ????? – ???????? ?????? ?????? (????? ??, ??) ?? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???”? ???? ??

    #860492

    LeiderLeider…
    Participant

    Daas. Thank you. Can you refer me to the particualr Siman? We’re trying to put together a comprehensive picture on this topic and would appreciate any and all details. Much obliged.

    Toi. When you have a chance I would appreciate if you can point out where I can find the rulings you mention. Thanks again.

    YakovL. What should I tell you, I’m at a loss… you were potentially oiver on an array of aveirus with your presumptious assertion against me, and yet you preach to me about the merits of Mechila. Astounding.

    #860493

    YakovL
    Member

    LeiderLeider: Is it different than the “slach lonu uvinu ki chotonu”- brocho that we say 3x a day – not only “potentially” but even real aveiros?

    #860494

    LeiderLeider…
    Participant

    Parable.

    Yankle hurts Moshe – for no reason at all.

    Moshe gets upset and says he’s not moichel Yankle.

    Yankle says, oh but you really should be moichel me (even though I’m not even acknowledging that I did something wrong). You ask Hashem 3x day for Mechilla. Also, if you’re moichel me, Hashem will be lenient with you.

    How heartwarming.

    #860495

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    LeiderLeider, for which din, grape juice bottles or candy dishes?

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