Rebbes Affectionate with Children

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  • #1055869

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    There are numerous legal citations freely available online clearly indicating that corporal punishment is legal in private schools in 48 out of 50 States, with only two States (neither of which is NY) disallowing corporal punishment.

    And they could be wrong or out of date.

    Heck, I showed you on the official site of the New York State Dept of Education the source of the regulation. I think that outweighs any other website on the matter.

    It’s almost as if I told you that Prince Charles was the next in line for the British Throne *and* showed you the official site of the Royal Family and you replied “but there are other free websites that say so-and-so is next in line…”

    The Wolf

    #1055870

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Hey, all those who think whacking your kids, or letting someone else do so is a good idea, because you are convinced it is not illegal, are you also going to beat your wife, because there are numerous sources in halacha that allowed it in certain circumstances?

    Are you going to justify doing that today, too?

    If you need a punching bag, go to the gym.

    If you need to demonstrate power in your relationship wit your kids or with talmidim, do it with leadership, with example, with giving praise, all of which are way more effective than with fear.

    #1055871

    iced
    Member

    You only cited a non-statue executive civil regulation that 1) does not carry the force of law and 2) is not subject to any private school that is not regulated by the government of the State of New York. (The second point being even stronger than the first.) And parochiol schools are NOT regulated by any governmental entity due to the seperation of Church and State.

    #1055872

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    yichusdik: As I wrote before, Shlomo hamelech was certainly smarter then your, me, American justice system. Just because we’re legally not allowed to doesn’t mean it’s the right way. btw Rabbi Miller, who I quoted from, was also smarter than you. He had an Orthodox Torah view.

    #1055873

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    1) does not carry the force of law

    On what basis do you say that? I’ve spoken with several lawyers who practice in New York and they inform me that it does have the force of law.

    2) is not subject to any private school that is not regulated by the government of the State of New York.

    EVERY school is regulated to some degree or other by the State, religious or not. You can’t open up a school and do whatever you like. Private schools, religious or not, are subject to all sorts of regulations.

    The Wolf

    #1055874

    iced
    Member

    The regulation you cited specifically states that its application is limited to “approved” or “registered” private schools. Parochial schools are not required to be approved or registered by the State in order to operate a religious school.

    Unless a specific parochial school chose to register, it is not subject to the regulation you cited.

    #1055875

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Na, MODs,- please erase that last sentence. Too strong.

    #1055876

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Participant

    Wolf +1

    #1055877

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    (Do Mods know how to read?)

    #1055878

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    When Rav Yaakov Kaminsky was a boy, he was walking to school and an older man asked him to do a Mitzvah for him.

    Because he helped, he was lake for Chedar and when he got there , his Rebbe thought he stopped to look at a construction sight and slapped him across the face hard , without even asking why he was late

    He never forgave him.

    #1055879

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    We know that story. It’s not because he slapped him. It’s because he didn’t believe him. He wrote so himself. He says a Rebbe must be able to discern the truth. Read it.

    #1055880

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    And I don’t think it was chedar, I believe it was Gorgonzola.

    #1055881

    To all those apologists for rebbes slapping talmidim, I have worked in the past with boys who, whilst they are not OTD, have trouble fitting in the system. I cannot tell you how many of them were turned off learning torah because of rebbes who used corporal punishment; one told me how his rebbe forced him to wear a sign around his neck with the word ‘sheigetz’ on it because he couldn’t answer a question, and then slapped his hand with a ruler. The boy was forced to sit at the front of the class, facing the rest of the class, wearing this sign for the rest of the lesson. Please understand that probably the worst thing you can do for a child is use such punishments. Please, if you value your child’s chinuch, don’t apologise for the things you’re apologising for.

    #1055882

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And How many other times has a rebbe given a slap or a potch when it wasnt warrented

    #1055883

    MorahRach
    Member

    I don’t have the literature like some do here and the actual law written out but I worked in a private school in NY for almost 4 years and it most certainly is illegal. Every year before school starts we have in-service week, and a good portion of that time is spent going over such rules and regulations. Corporal punishment is 100% illegal and not only a fire able offense but nowadays not only would the school get fined, you could be brought up on charges. We also can’t put sun block on children without a written note from parents, signed by the headmaster and teacher. I personally was a very affectionate teacher, i believe as a Morah ( not rebbe) that my 4 and 5 year olds benefitted from that level of love and affection, but I also knew where to draw the line. I was more touchy than other teachers and no one seemed to mind. If I had been in a public school however, I would have kept my hands to myself.

    #1055884

    WIY
    Member

    I cant remember one time in my life that I was hit by either a Rebbe or my parents that it made me love and respect them MORE.

    #1055885

    iced
    Member

    Apparently some people here disagree with a bfeirush posek in the Torah and psak halacha brought in Shulchan Aruch that corporal punishment should be used with children.

    #1055886

    MorahRach
    Member

    Men used to also have more than 1 wife. Things change.

    #1055887

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Morah Rach

    Sure things change but then again the Torah never promoted Men taking more then one wife as the “ideal” rather the ideal was always Adam and Chava a monogamous relationship. There are many sources for this ex. why were Rachel and Leah not buried together with Yackov in the Mearas HaMachpala.

    However the Torah on down through Chazal have promoted corporal punishment as an effective chinuch tool.

    Furthermore on a practical level we have seen that the more certain methods of chinuch are utilized and “old” methods of chinuch are thron out, the more blatant the collapse of chinuch becomes.

    Slowly as Public School methodologies are brought in to Yeshivos the results of PS are unfortunatley becoming rampant as well.

    #1055888

    WIY
    Member

    Iced

    From Revach.net

    Rav Shloime Volbe: Don’t Hit Kids Above the Age of… 3

    Rav Volbe writes in Sefer Zriah u’Binyan b’Chinuch that even though the Gemara says that it is forbidden to hit a kid who is over sixteen or according to another opinion 24 years old, according to the way things are in our times, he says, one who hits a kid that is only 3 years old transgresses li’Fnei Iver because the child, even at that age, will rebel against his father.

    Once upon a time it was possible to hit a child without destroying the relationship between the father and the child, nowadays it is no longer possible. Hitting a child will always destroy the relationship between the parents and the child. The Sefer Minchas Shmuel says in the name of Rav Chaim Volozhin that harsh words do not penetrate or make any positive impact and a parent should only speak softly and with kindness. If in the times of Rav Chaim Volozhin this was the case, certainly it is true in our times and even more so with regards to children.

    Times have changed. Rivka was suitable for marriage at age three. Our kids are old enough to rebel at age three.Rav Shloime Volbe: Don’t Hit Kids Above the Age of… 3

    Rav Volbe writes in Sefer Zriah u’Binyan b’Chinuch that even though the Gemara says that it is forbidden to hit a kid who is over sixteen or according to another opinion 24 years old, according to the way things are in our times, he says, one who hits a kid that is only 3 years old transgresses li’Fnei Iver because the child, even at that age, will rebel against his father.

    Once upon a time it was possible to hit a child without destroying the relationship between the father and the child, nowadays it is no longer possible. Hitting a child will always destroy the relationship between the parents and the child. The Sefer Minchas Shmuel says in the name of Rav Chaim Volozhin that harsh words do not penetrate or make any positive impact and a parent should only speak softly and with kindness. If in the times of Rav Chaim Volozhin this was the case, certainly it is true in our times and even more so with regards to children.

    Times have changed. Rivka was suitable for marriage at age three. Our kids are old enough to rebel at age three.

    #1055889

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    WIY – thanks for that post, you seem very well informed.

    #1055890

    OneOfMany
    Member

    Doublepostwithinapostitis? 😛

    #1055891

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    good call, OOOOM (doublepostwithinaworditis)

    #1055892

    WIY
    Member

    Syag

    You are welcome. I feel its so important that its worth reading at least twice :-p

    #1055893

    OneOfMany
    Member

    heh

    #1055894

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    WIY +1

    #1055895

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I just saw where R. Yaakov Bender, the Rosh Yeshiva of Darchei Torah in Far Rockaway wrote in the Yated (in the Chinuch Roundtable) that corporeal punishment is never acceptable.

    The Wolf

    #1055896

    WIY
    Member

    WolfishMusings

    Thanks for sharing.

    #1055897

    Wolfman
    Participant

    I’ve been in chinuch for two decades. In the yeshivos where I was/am employed there has been a total of 0 incidents of abuse of any form. I am not naive enough to think that it doesn’t exist. Of course it does. But it is no where near as common as some would have us think.

    #1055898

    rebdoniel
    Member

    I work as a shadow for a 19 year old bocher with Down’s Syndrome in a yeshiva. I would never go beyond a handshake with him. The liability is too great and we need to protect ourselves by being lifnim mishurat hadin. Children lie and make allegations sometimes, and we need to protect ourselves. Touch is not advisable at all.

    #1055899

    starbucks is having a special on their angus burger with the double fries and mochachinno (2,714.98476 calories) (wheeeere’s the beef?),only $3.99 + tax, and what self respecting yid pays tax? (Is ducht an alter vart alts vos chapt a nafke mina btwn a jew and a canoe, mibalt the canoes sometimes tip.) Chap arien, rabboisai!

    A freilichin, un yechi meshichoseinu.

    #1055900

    sw33t
    Member

    I want to make a few points:

    WIY: great post

    Regarding the OP: I do NOT think its ok for a rebbe to show affection with touch. Certainly nothing more then a pat on the shoulder.

    As someone who was taken under many teacher’s wings, as well as had regular meetings with social workers and Rabbis during my HS years, I was NEVER touched by any of them, not even a pat on the shoulder. And I was showed a lot of affection.

    Instead they were affectionate through their own actions. I believe this is the true way a rebbe or adult can show affection. Touch is superficial. Actions go a lot further. I had one teacher that invited me to eat supper in her home with her family whenever I wanted. One Rabbi who gave me a tehilim with a personalized letter inside. These are actions that I can remember vividly today, and see the impact it had on me. Not a hug or a pat.

    Now as for abuse, I strongly believe there is never a reason or excuse for it. I do not believe it makes for better chinuch or discipline.

    Just because many great talmidim that were hit turned out alright, does not make it okay! You should look it as “they turned out alright even though they were hit” instead of ” they turned out alright when they were hit, so hitting is okay”

    For every child that will not be long term affected by abuse, there is another one whose life will be ruined. And no rebbe or adult can decide which kids can take it and which cannot.

    #1055901

    ShalomToYou
    Member

    Here’s my opinion: Rebbeim should show as much affection as possible. Nothing happens from a simple touch.

    Everyone should stop freaking out about abuse of children, which the goyim are so busy with, due to their worship of youth.

    #1055902

    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    I don’t see what is wrong with a teacher affectionately touching a student! (Wow, that came out sounding so weird…) now, that doesn’t mean I approve of corporal punishment. They are two completely different things! Chad veshalom that I would ever approve of such barbarism! I don’t think anyone ever benefits from corporal punishment. It just makes te student detest his teacher, and by extension, Judaism too!

    I vividly remember an incident in which a teacher of mine hugged and kissed me, after I achieved a major breakthrough in something. I needed that validation. Words wouldn’t accomplish nearly as much as that did.

    #1055903

    notasheep
    Member

    I am a kindergarten teacher. At that age, kids need physical affection such as a hug if they fall down or sitting on a te a teacher’s lap. But I personally draw the line at giving them a kiss.

    #1055904

    i would just like to mention to all teachers out here that emotionally abusing a student is just as bad as physically. dont say that if you didnt touch them its fine.

    #1055905

    I touch my students.

    I love them dearly, and I hug them. I kiss them. I have them sit on my lap. With their consent. I pinch their cheeks. And I even massage their weary hands after a long test when they complain that their hands hurt.

    The love is pretty mutual and I know I’ve built my students and they love school for it. They know that their teacher loves them and they want to impress her. Class is fun because of it. They all can’t wait for the last day of school when they’ll each have their private time with me and I’ll tell them how special they are and how much they mean to me and how to always believe that they can do it. I think that that’s more important than almost anything in the world. These are Yiddishe kids that we’re talking about, and I don’t care what this sick world has come to- what does a sheigetz’s ideas have to do with me??? I have one mission: to build my students. I won’t let the depravity of the outside world enter my pure, holy, homey classroom.

    #1055906

    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    Wow, eftach!

    If I’d have a daughter, I’d send her to the school you teach in.

    #1055907

    LG- thanks:) You should! If you’d have a daughter she’d probably be the kinda kid I’d enjoy teaching (with a mother who’s a work in progress…)!

    #1055908

    “These are Yiddishe kids that we’re talking about, and I don’t care what this sick world has come to- what does a sheigetz’s ideas have to do with me???”

    Unfortunately, there are sick Yidden out there, too. Don’t bury your head in the sand.

    #1055909

    ivory
    Member

    How is she burying her head in the sand? If she’s a good teacher and not abusing her students (quite the contrary)by being affectionate how is that wrong?

    #1055910

    Being affectionate and being a good teacher are not wrong. What’s wrong is assuming that only a “sheigetz” has evil thoughts.

    #1055911

    By sheigetz I mean whoever made up the law. Or the NYCDOE. Or Obama’s friends. Or enemies. Whatever.

    #1055912

    golfer
    Participant

    Eftachb, you sound like a wonderful teacher.

    Still, I think there might be a problem with what you’re doing.

    There has in fact been horrible unmentionable behavior on the part of sick people who exist even in our own circles. To children, and even adults, they look, and seem to act, like everybody else. One way to protect our children from them, is to get the little ones used to the fact that nobody, Absolutely nobody, besides their parents, grandparents, and siblings, has close physical contact with them.

    Sad, but true.

    In the olden days, before we lost our innocence, a child getting a kiss from a Morah, or sitting on a Rebbe’s lap while reciting Aleph Bais, was perfectly acceptable. I think those days are gone.

    There are, however, plenty of other ways to show your students that you love them. Children are sensitive creatures, and will pick up your warm feelings from a gesture or the tone of your voice, even in the absence of physical touch. Some of my children were lucky to have Rabbayim

    and teachers who clearly demonstrated their love for their students without any physical interaction. And it’s still remembered years later.

    #1055913

    Joseph
    Member

    I fully agree with everything eftachbchinor said.

    #1055914

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Eftachbchinor –

    Perhaps things are different for a woman teaching in a girls’ school. As a Rebbe, I am painfully aware of the need to maintain a zero-touch policy. I work very hard to communicate my love to my students without touch, but there is no way to compensate completely for the lack of touch. Nevertheless, in today’s world there is no other way. One never knows when some witch-hunting warmonger will attempt to use each pat on the shoulder as a weapon to destroy a Rebbe’s life, and ruin his students in the process. These people have little time or concern for what is right; they care only for what gratifies their need for revenge against some real or imagined abuser.

    The sad reality is that there are people who assume that the only reason a person would want to teach is that he is a pedophile.

    Hashem yishmereinu!

    #1055915

    “Children are sensitive creatures, and will pick up your warm feelings from a gesture or the tone of your voice, even in the absence of physical touch.”

    And the others:

    I hear, I hear. Maybe you’re right. Still, nothing is as powerful. And maybe it has a tinge of selfishness, like, who can resist pinching precious kiddio’s little cheeks? I hear ya.

    #1055916

    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    +1 Ivory!

    I know of more than one father that abused his daughter. Does that mean that fathers can’t touch their daughters?

    #1055917

    ivory
    Member

    I think it’s a case of overkill. I know of a brother who physically abused his sister. Will you now say that a brother can’t touch a sister ?…… Maybe…

    #1055918

    vinaron
    Member

    In der haym there was a saying “a melamed vus ken kishen a tamid ken shlugen a talmid” unfortunately nowadays Id rather a rebbe hit my son than kiss my son

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