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Rebbes Affectionate with Children

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  1. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    There are numerous legal citations freely available online clearly indicating that corporal punishment is legal in private schools in 48 out of 50 States, with only two States (neither of which is NY) disallowing corporal punishment.

    And they could be wrong or out of date.

    Heck, I showed you on the official site of the New York State Dept of Education the source of the regulation. I think that outweighs any other website on the matter.

    It's almost as if I told you that Prince Charles was the next in line for the British Throne *and* showed you the official site of the Royal Family and you replied "but there are other free websites that say so-and-so is next in line..."

    The Wolf

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. yichusdik
    Member

    Hey, all those who think whacking your kids, or letting someone else do so is a good idea, because you are convinced it is not illegal, are you also going to beat your wife, because there are numerous sources in halacha that allowed it in certain circumstances?

    Are you going to justify doing that today, too?

    If you need a punching bag, go to the gym.

    If you need to demonstrate power in your relationship wit your kids or with talmidim, do it with leadership, with example, with giving praise, all of which are way more effective than with fear.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. iced
    Joseph

    You only cited a non-statue executive civil regulation that 1) does not carry the force of law and 2) is not subject to any private school that is not regulated by the government of the State of New York. (The second point being even stronger than the first.) And parochiol schools are NOT regulated by any governmental entity due to the seperation of Church and State.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    yichusdik: As I wrote before, Shlomo hamelech was certainly smarter then your, me, American justice system. Just because we're legally not allowed to doesn't mean it's the right way. btw Rabbi Miller, who I quoted from, was also smarter than you. He had an Orthodox Torah view.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    1) does not carry the force of law

    On what basis do you say that? I've spoken with several lawyers who practice in New York and they inform me that it does have the force of law.

    2) is not subject to any private school that is not regulated by the government of the State of New York.

    EVERY school is regulated to some degree or other by the State, religious or not. You can't open up a school and do whatever you like. Private schools, religious or not, are subject to all sorts of regulations.

    The Wolf

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. iced
    Joseph

    The regulation you cited specifically states that its application is limited to "approved" or "registered" private schools. Parochial schools are not required to be approved or registered by the State in order to operate a religious school.

    Unless a specific parochial school chose to register, it is not subject to the regulation you cited.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    Na, MODs,- please erase that last sentence. Too strong.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. Ctrl Alt Del
    Wishes he could Ctrl Alt or Del some posts

    Wolf +1

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    (Do Mods know how to read?)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. zahavasdad
    zahavasoneluckygirl

    When Rav Yaakov Kaminsky was a boy, he was walking to school and an older man asked him to do a Mitzvah for him.

    Because he helped, he was lake for Chedar and when he got there , his Rebbe thought he stopped to look at a construction sight and slapped him across the face hard , without even asking why he was late

    He never forgave him.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    We know that story. It's not because he slapped him. It's because he didn't believe him. He wrote so himself. He says a Rebbe must be able to discern the truth. Read it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. And I don't think it was chedar, I believe it was Gorgonzola.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. just my hapence
    a penny for your thoughts, minus some change

    To all those apologists for rebbes slapping talmidim, I have worked in the past with boys who, whilst they are not OTD, have trouble fitting in the system. I cannot tell you how many of them were turned off learning torah because of rebbes who used corporal punishment; one told me how his rebbe forced him to wear a sign around his neck with the word 'sheigetz' on it because he couldn't answer a question, and then slapped his hand with a ruler. The boy was forced to sit at the front of the class, facing the rest of the class, wearing this sign for the rest of the lesson. Please understand that probably the worst thing you can do for a child is use such punishments. Please, if you value your child's chinuch, don't apologise for the things you're apologising for.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. zahavasdad
    zahavasoneluckygirl

    And How many other times has a rebbe given a slap or a potch when it wasnt warrented

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. MorahRach
    Member

    I don't have the literature like some do here and the actual law written out but I worked in a private school in NY for almost 4 years and it most certainly is illegal. Every year before school starts we have in-service week, and a good portion of that time is spent going over such rules and regulations. Corporal punishment is 100% illegal and not only a fire able offense but nowadays not only would the school get fined, you could be brought up on charges. We also can't put sun block on children without a written note from parents, signed by the headmaster and teacher. I personally was a very affectionate teacher, i believe as a Morah ( not rebbe) that my 4 and 5 year olds benefitted from that level of love and affection, but I also knew where to draw the line. I was more touchy than other teachers and no one seemed to mind. If I had been in a public school however, I would have kept my hands to myself.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    I cant remember one time in my life that I was hit by either a Rebbe or my parents that it made me love and respect them MORE.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. iced
    Joseph

    Apparently some people here disagree with a bfeirush posek in the Torah and psak halacha brought in Shulchan Aruch that corporal punishment should be used with children.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. MorahRach
    Member

    Men used to also have more than 1 wife. Things change.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Ben Levi
    Member

    Morah Rach
    Sure things change but then again the Torah never promoted Men taking more then one wife as the "ideal" rather the ideal was always Adam and Chava a monogamous relationship. There are many sources for this ex. why were Rachel and Leah not buried together with Yackov in the Mearas HaMachpala.
    However the Torah on down through Chazal have promoted corporal punishment as an effective chinuch tool.
    Furthermore on a practical level we have seen that the more certain methods of chinuch are utilized and "old" methods of chinuch are thron out, the more blatant the collapse of chinuch becomes.
    Slowly as Public School methodologies are brought in to Yeshivos the results of PS are unfortunatley becoming rampant as well.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    Iced
    From Revach.net
    Rav Shloime Volbe: Don't Hit Kids Above the Age of... 3

    Rav Volbe writes in Sefer Zriah u'Binyan b'Chinuch that even though the Gemara says that it is forbidden to hit a kid who is over sixteen or according to another opinion 24 years old, according to the way things are in our times, he says, one who hits a kid that is only 3 years old transgresses li'Fnei Iver because the child, even at that age, will rebel against his father.

    Once upon a time it was possible to hit a child without destroying the relationship between the father and the child, nowadays it is no longer possible. Hitting a child will always destroy the relationship between the parents and the child. The Sefer Minchas Shmuel says in the name of Rav Chaim Volozhin that harsh words do not penetrate or make any positive impact and a parent should only speak softly and with kindness. If in the times of Rav Chaim Volozhin this was the case, certainly it is true in our times and even more so with regards to children.

    Times have changed. Rivka was suitable for marriage at age three. Our kids are old enough to rebel at age three.Rav Shloime Volbe: Don't Hit Kids Above the Age of... 3

    Rav Volbe writes in Sefer Zriah u'Binyan b'Chinuch that even though the Gemara says that it is forbidden to hit a kid who is over sixteen or according to another opinion 24 years old, according to the way things are in our times, he says, one who hits a kid that is only 3 years old transgresses li'Fnei Iver because the child, even at that age, will rebel against his father.

    Once upon a time it was possible to hit a child without destroying the relationship between the father and the child, nowadays it is no longer possible. Hitting a child will always destroy the relationship between the parents and the child. The Sefer Minchas Shmuel says in the name of Rav Chaim Volozhin that harsh words do not penetrate or make any positive impact and a parent should only speak softly and with kindness. If in the times of Rav Chaim Volozhin this was the case, certainly it is true in our times and even more so with regards to children.

    Times have changed. Rivka was suitable for marriage at age three. Our kids are old enough to rebel at age three.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. Syag Lchochma
    working on shesika

    WIY - thanks for that post, you seem very well informed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    Doublepostwithinapostitis? :P

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. Syag Lchochma
    working on shesika

    good call, OOOOM (doublepostwithinaworditis)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    Syag
    You are welcome. I feel its so important that its worth reading at least twice :-p

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    heh

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. zahavasdad
    zahavasoneluckygirl

    WIY +1

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    I just saw where R. Yaakov Bender, the Rosh Yeshiva of Darchei Torah in Far Rockaway wrote in the Yated (in the Chinuch Roundtable) that corporeal punishment is never acceptable.

    The Wolf

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    WolfishMusings
    Thanks for sharing.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. Wolfman
    Member

    I've been in chinuch for two decades. In the yeshivos where I was/am employed there has been a total of 0 incidents of abuse of any form. I am not naive enough to think that it doesn't exist. Of course it does. But it is no where near as common as some would have us think.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. rebdoniel
    Modern/Open Orthodox

    I work as a shadow for a 19 year old bocher with Down's Syndrome in a yeshiva. I would never go beyond a handshake with him. The liability is too great and we need to protect ourselves by being lifnim mishurat hadin. Children lie and make allegations sometimes, and we need to protect ourselves. Touch is not advisable at all.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. starbucks is having a special on their angus burger with the double fries and mochachinno (2,714.98476 calories) (wheeeere's the beef?),only $3.99 + tax, and what self respecting yid pays tax? (Is ducht an alter vart alts vos chapt a nafke mina btwn a jew and a canoe, mibalt the canoes sometimes tip.) Chap arien, rabboisai!
    A freilichin, un yechi meshichoseinu.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. sw33t
    Member

    I want to make a few points:

    WIY: great post

    Regarding the OP: I do NOT think its ok for a rebbe to show affection with touch. Certainly nothing more then a pat on the shoulder.

    As someone who was taken under many teacher's wings, as well as had regular meetings with social workers and Rabbis during my HS years, I was NEVER touched by any of them, not even a pat on the shoulder. And I was showed a lot of affection.

    Instead they were affectionate through their own actions. I believe this is the true way a rebbe or adult can show affection. Touch is superficial. Actions go a lot further. I had one teacher that invited me to eat supper in her home with her family whenever I wanted. One Rabbi who gave me a tehilim with a personalized letter inside. These are actions that I can remember vividly today, and see the impact it had on me. Not a hug or a pat.

    Now as for abuse, I strongly believe there is never a reason or excuse for it. I do not believe it makes for better chinuch or discipline.

    Just because many great talmidim that were hit turned out alright, does not make it okay! You should look it as "they turned out alright even though they were hit" instead of " they turned out alright when they were hit, so hitting is okay"
    For every child that will not be long term affected by abuse, there is another one whose life will be ruined. And no rebbe or adult can decide which kids can take it and which cannot.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. ShalomToYou
    troll

    Here's my opinion: Rebbeim should show as much affection as possible. Nothing happens from a simple touch.

    Everyone should stop freaking out about abuse of children, which the goyim are so busy with, due to their worship of youth.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. Letakein Girl
    A work in progress

    I don't see what is wrong with a teacher affectionately touching a student! (Wow, that came out sounding so weird...) now, that doesn't mean I approve of corporal punishment. They are two completely different things! Chad veshalom that I would ever approve of such barbarism! I don't think anyone ever benefits from corporal punishment. It just makes te student detest his teacher, and by extension, Judaism too!

    I vividly remember an incident in which a teacher of mine hugged and kissed me, after I achieved a major breakthrough in something. I needed that validation. Words wouldn't accomplish nearly as much as that did.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  35. notasheep
    more like a mother bear

    I am a kindergarten teacher. At that age, kids need physical affection such as a hug if they fall down or sitting on a te a teacher's lap. But I personally draw the line at giving them a kiss.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  36. wannabechasidish
    Litvish girl that wants to be chasidish, but still wants a clean shaven husband

    i would just like to mention to all teachers out here that emotionally abusing a student is just as bad as physically. dont say that if you didnt touch them its fine.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  37. eftachbchinor
    harping on harmonic and beautiful undertones

    I touch my students.
    I love them dearly, and I hug them. I kiss them. I have them sit on my lap. With their consent. I pinch their cheeks. And I even massage their weary hands after a long test when they complain that their hands hurt.
    The love is pretty mutual and I know I've built my students and they love school for it. They know that their teacher loves them and they want to impress her. Class is fun because of it. They all can't wait for the last day of school when they'll each have their private time with me and I'll tell them how special they are and how much they mean to me and how to always believe that they can do it. I think that that's more important than almost anything in the world. These are Yiddishe kids that we're talking about, and I don't care what this sick world has come to- what does a sheigetz's ideas have to do with me??? I have one mission: to build my students. I won't let the depravity of the outside world enter my pure, holy, homey classroom.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  38. Letakein Girl
    A work in progress

    Wow, eftach!

    If I'd have a daughter, I'd send her to the school you teach in.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  39. eftachbchinor
    harping on harmonic and beautiful undertones

    LG- thanks:) You should! If you'd have a daughter she'd probably be the kinda kid I'd enjoy teaching (with a mother who's a work in progress...)!

    Posted 1 week ago #
  40. jewishfeminist02
    jewishfeminist01 + jewishfeminist02

    "These are Yiddishe kids that we're talking about, and I don't care what this sick world has come to- what does a sheigetz's ideas have to do with me???"

    Unfortunately, there are sick Yidden out there, too. Don't bury your head in the sand.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  41. ivory
    99% pure

    How is she burying her head in the sand? If she's a good teacher and not abusing her students (quite the contrary)by being affectionate how is that wrong?

    Posted 1 week ago #
  42. jewishfeminist02
    jewishfeminist01 + jewishfeminist02

    Being affectionate and being a good teacher are not wrong. What's wrong is assuming that only a "sheigetz" has evil thoughts.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  43. eftachbchinor
    harping on harmonic and beautiful undertones

    By sheigetz I mean whoever made up the law. Or the NYCDOE. Or Obama's friends. Or enemies. Whatever.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  44. golfer
    Club Member

    Eftachb, you sound like a wonderful teacher.
    Still, I think there might be a problem with what you're doing.
    There has in fact been horrible unmentionable behavior on the part of sick people who exist even in our own circles. To children, and even adults, they look, and seem to act, like everybody else. One way to protect our children from them, is to get the little ones used to the fact that nobody, Absolutely nobody, besides their parents, grandparents, and siblings, has close physical contact with them.
    Sad, but true.
    In the olden days, before we lost our innocence, a child getting a kiss from a Morah, or sitting on a Rebbe's lap while reciting Aleph Bais, was perfectly acceptable. I think those days are gone.
    There are, however, plenty of other ways to show your students that you love them. Children are sensitive creatures, and will pick up your warm feelings from a gesture or the tone of your voice, even in the absence of physical touch. Some of my children were lucky to have Rabbayim
    and teachers who clearly demonstrated their love for their students without any physical interaction. And it's still remembered years later.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  45. Lior
    Member

    I fully agree with everything eftachbchinor said.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  46. Eftachbchinor -
    Perhaps things are different for a woman teaching in a girls' school. As a Rebbe, I am painfully aware of the need to maintain a zero-touch policy. I work very hard to communicate my love to my students without touch, but there is no way to compensate completely for the lack of touch. Nevertheless, in today's world there is no other way. One never knows when some witch-hunting warmonger will attempt to use each pat on the shoulder as a weapon to destroy a Rebbe's life, and ruin his students in the process. These people have little time or concern for what is right; they care only for what gratifies their need for revenge against some real or imagined abuser.
    The sad reality is that there are people who assume that the only reason a person would want to teach is that he is a pedophile.
    Hashem yishmereinu!

    Posted 1 week ago #
  47. eftachbchinor
    harping on harmonic and beautiful undertones

    "Children are sensitive creatures, and will pick up your warm feelings from a gesture or the tone of your voice, even in the absence of physical touch."

    And the others:

    I hear, I hear. Maybe you're right. Still, nothing is as powerful. And maybe it has a tinge of selfishness, like, who can resist pinching precious kiddio's little cheeks? I hear ya.

    Posted 5 days ago #
  48. Letakein Girl
    A work in progress

    +1 Ivory!

    I know of more than one father that abused his daughter. Does that mean that fathers can't touch their daughters?

    Posted 5 days ago #
  49. ivory
    99% pure

    I think it's a case of overkill. I know of a brother who physically abused his sister. Will you now say that a brother can't touch a sister ?...... Maybe...

    Posted 5 days ago #

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