Response to Lior

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  • #613954

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Yet, while I rarely or never hear the Kollel crowd running around demeaning everyone not attending Kollel, unfortunately it is far from infrequent that I hear and read (online et al) the anti-Kollel crowd demeaning Kollel or more frequently ranting off reasons folks should stop attending Kollel. No one is insisting they go to Kollel so why are they insisting others leave Kollel?”

    I can’t speak for anyone except myself. That having been said, if you visit pretty much any yeshivish yeshivah/seminary you might get a different impression. As an aside, there would be a very plausible reason why non-kollel people would want kollel people to leave kollel and not the reverse, namely that the non-kollel people are generally the ones supporting the kollel people.

    #1036908

    golfer
    Participant

    A different answer for Lior:

    Al rosh haganav bo’er hakova.

    Or, in plain English, people demean others to build themselves up when they feel guilty about something.

    Just human nature.

    And note to PAA:

    The people complaining the loudest are not those funding the Kollels.

    #1036909

    Joseph
    Participant

    “there would be a very plausible reason why non-kollel people would want kollel people to leave kollel and not the reverse, namely that the non-kollel people are generally the ones supporting the kollel people.”

    No one is forcing anyone to support anyone else, in Kollel or out of Kollel. I have no tainas if someone chooses to give their maaser to things other than Kollel and not a dime to Kollel. So don’t give. But where do they come about spouting against other’s choice to attend Kollel?

    #1036910

    Families who are not a part of the kollel system end up supporting kollel families in many ways other than just making a donation to kollel itself. These families might give their maaser money to Tomchei Shabbos, which in turn distributes food to hungry kollel families, or they might donate to the local day school or yeshiva ketana to pay tuition for the children of men who learn in kollel.

    One thing that troubles me is the way that already strained financial resources cycle through a community without gathering much in the way of dollars from outside the community. I might babysit for my neighbor’s children and use that money to get my shaitel washed and set, and the sheitel macher might use that money at the seforim store, and the owner of the store might go to lunch at the new kosher place in town…At least, it definitely seems to work that way in my community. There are too many men in kollel who aren’t working at all, and there are too many people (mostly women) who have set up little in-home businesses babysitting, or selling tichels or whatnot, but they can never make a real substantial profit because their customers are all frum, and all equally pinched for money. In my case with the babysitting, I’d really like to charge a lot more per hour than I’m getting, but if I raised my rates I wouldn’t get any business. I get it; he’s in kollel and she’s a teacher, and they have to pay rent. But since they send their kids to me, they end up paying my rent, too– and neither they nor we are quite making it.

    #1036911

    hodulashem
    Participant

    Where was Lior’s original comment posted? I want to understand the context of the conversation…

    #1036912

    hodulashem
    Participant

    oh never mind- i found the thread! I gotta catch up

    #1036913

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Golfer:

    It is very possible that you are correct, and like I said I can’t really speak for anyone else; I can only suggest why people would not want others (or the enormous amount of others) in kollel. But I think that something along the lines of what Jewishfeminist is saying, is true, namely that even if you don’t directly donate to a kollel, it is still a financial burden. The most obvious example is tuition – the more people not paying tuition, the more those who are paying will have to pay. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone’s right to be upset, but I do think that it is true that one side can honestly perceive the other side as being an economic burden and this can not necessarily be conversified.

    #1036914

    catch yourself
    Participant

    It is important to note that this conversation does not apply equally to all kollelim.

    Many kollelim (most notably, nearly all of the ones in what are colloquially, [and rather small-mindedly] referred to as “out of town communities”) actually pay a significant salary. While rarely enough to live on without supplementary income, this salary is definitely on par with that of many other jobs.

    In my community, the most needy families (which put the greatest burden on the community) are not the kollel families, but families of unsuccessful businessmen.

    What I have observed firsthand, and heard from longstanding members of various communities which are fortunate enough to host kollelim, is that a kollel is a tremendous positive force within a community in a myriad of ways. While it is obviously true that the kollel and its members rely heavily on the rest of the community for support, any fair minded individual should recognize that it is a symbiotic relationship.

    Finally, I will mention that although I have had this debate many times, I have never heard this complaint from someone who did not have a personal enmity for “black hatters.”

    #1036915

    Sam2
    Participant

    catch yourself: Those are not the Kollelim that anyone complains about. Those are essentially teachers and M’lamdim for the entire community and are involved in the community. They’re like assistant Shul Rabbis for everyone.

    What people sometimes have an issue with are the entire communities of Kollelim in New York and Eretz Yisrael.

    #1036916

    golfer
    Participant

    I see your point, jfem & PAA.

    In that case we need to decide whether all individuals and families benefit from having a Kollel (or Kollels) in their community, making it a worthwhile endeavor, or not. (Personally I think the choice is obvious, on many levels, but I’m not the one calling the shots.)

    Also, like catchyf, I have noticed that economic realities today are tough, and there are many working families that can’t make ends meet. They also put financial pressure on the rest of the community (as in not paying tuition). Are we proud and satisfied with the amount of Chessed that we are involved in on a communal and personal level? or do we feel overburdened?

    #1036917

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Lior – I believe the answer can be found in that 30 – 40 years ago, no one worried about others in Kollel. Then, the Yeshivos (Sem was barely a blip) did not promote Kollel, so those who wanted to join had to really want it and mean it (and be real). For people like that, there is only support.

    However, in our times, it is promoted by Yeshivos & Sems that everyone should be in Kollel (not just those who really want it). That means support from parents, grandparents and others, raised tuition/Chessed requirements on everyone (due to those who choose to take the easy way out and are not learning 12-14 hours a day) as JFem points out, as well as (partially) an understanding of the costs of poverty on the children of the Kollel system (which is not their choice or fault). This forces/guilts others into supporting them.

    To quote the Gemorah in Chaggigah (5B):

    ??? ???? ???? ???”? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????

    In short, I believe what you are seeing is a backlash against “the new system”, vs. against the actual learners (who are still regularly supported).

    #1036918

    As far as the “symbiotic relationship” and the existence of the kollel being a benefit to the community, in theory I wholeheartedly agree. It’s just that in practice (and again, I can only speak for my community) it doesn’t seem to work that way. My husband was really excited to be in this community where there is a thriving kollel. He wanted to learn in the kollel’s Beis Medrash and take advantage of shiurim. But the kollel doesn’t seem to offer shiurim to the larger community, and when he goes to the Beis Medrash he doesn’t feel so welcome. It’s like the yeshiva is its own little bubble and not really accessible to him so much. And just to make this clear, I definitely don’t have a grudge against “black hatters”, nor do I generally use that term.

    #1036919

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Sam – I wish I could agree that “noone” complains about Community Kollelim, but that is sadly not the case.

    JF – As a proud alumnus of multiple Community Kollelim, I am appalled at the situation you describe. I think that in the Kollelim of which I was a part, as well as in the Kollel in my current community, your husband (and you!) would have felt quite welcome. These are well known “Lakewood Kollelim,” where the Kollel members learn together two sedorim each day, and night seder is reserved for learning with the community.

    Shiurim, chavrusas, social gatherings and other community events, as well as good old fashioned hospitality, should be the bread and butter (and meat and potatoes) of any Kollel that portrays itself as a community Kollel.

    You sound like exactly the type of family that any Kollel would love to have as part of its community.

    #1036920

    Thanks, catch yourself. I think the difference is that the kollel here is not a community kollel, but the beis medrash program of a yeshiva.

    #1036921

    Randomex
    Member

    Gavra at work:

    To quote the Gemorah in Chaggigah (5B):

    ??? ???? ???? ???”? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????

    Can you name a peirush that says the Gemara means people

    who “cannot learn” for financial reasons?

    #1036922

    Sam2
    Participant

    catch yourself: For the most part, people who don’t like community Kollelim are usually because of issues with community politics, not because they are against the concept of having a Kollel in town (or because they’d rather it be a Lakewood vs Ner Yisrael Kollel or Ner Yisrael instead of Lakewood or something like that).

    #1036923

    Toi
    Participant

    GAW- maybe check out the maharshah there in chiddushei aggados before using that gemara as a m”m.

    #1036924

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Can you name a peirush that says the Gemara means people

    who “cannot learn” for financial reasons?

    Of course it doesn’t, and that is not what I said. Straw Man.

    Toi – since I don’t have one at work, would you like to enlighten us all?

    #1036925

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Maharsha:

    ?’ ???”? ???? ??’. ??? ??”? ????? ????? ??’. ?????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??’ ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??”? ??’ ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??”? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??”? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??”? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???”? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??”? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???????? ??? ?”? ???????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????

    #1036926

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    It is interesting to note that the Maharsha’s view here is somewhat at odds with his explanation of R’ Nehorai in kiddushin. Additionally, The Be’eiros Hamayim asks on the Maharsha: ??”? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???”? ???”? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??”? ?’ ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ??????? ??”? ?”? ??”? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? ???”? ???? ???’ ??????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????”? ????’ ?”? ?? which would accord with Gavra. Also the Maharsha’s pshat is clearly not the pashtus of the Gemara, and there are others who give other pshatim – in fact I quoted one in http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/for-pulsing-flower-to-rant-about-iyun/page/5#post-530548 ,not to take away from the Maharsha though.

    #1036927

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    PAA – Thanks

    Toi – certainly looks like a huge Dochek to me (he is Mehapech the words of the Gemorah), and certainly not Pashut P’shat (besides that he claims the Tanu Rabbanan is Davka going like Rav Nehurai against the other Tannaim in Keddushin).

    Pashut Pshat (to me) is that everyone has their Tachlis in this world that the RBSO put them here to do. For some it is Chessed, others Askanus, some to make Shidduchim, some to support the Klal, and some to learn Torah full time. It was not Zev Wolfson’s ZTL or Mike Tress’ ZTL’s job to learn full time (seemingly), or Lehavdil L’chaim Yisroel Friedman (the Shaddchan) or Yehudah Rechnitz. If they were to quit their holy work because “they need to learn in Kollel”, that would be worth crying over. And in reality, if you think about it, everyone who works to support their family is also doing “Meleches Shomaim”, if they are doing so for the right reasons.

    If you would like a more “Pashut” pshat than the Maharsha that also fits with your personal Hashkafic outlook, you can see the Nachlas Baruch (available on Hebrewbooks.org), who says similar to what PAA quoted in his link.

    #1036928

    Randomex
    Member

    Gavra at work:

    Of course it doesn't, and that is not what I said. Straw Man.

    Not on purpose. Here’s the quote again, with some context. I think you should be able to see how I’d make that mistake.

    However, in our times, it is promoted by Yeshivos & Sems that everyone should be in Kollel (not just those who really want it). That means support from parents, grandparents and others, raised tuition/Chessed requirements on everyone (due to those who choose to take the easy way out and are not learning 12-14 hours a day) as JFem points out, as well as (partially) an understanding of the costs of poverty on the children of the Kollel system (which is not their choice or fault). This forces/guilts others into supporting them.

    To quote the Gemorah in Chaggigah (5B):

    ??? ???? ???? ???”? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????

    #1036929

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Randomex – The quote doesn’t discuss financials. It does discuss (Pashtus) that not everyone should be Osek if they “can’t” (and yes, “can’t” is undefined by both the Gemorah and myself). It does prove that the current Derech that everyone should be pushed into full time learning (or marrying a full time learner) is flat-out wrong.

    (and IMHO (and others) is causing many of the “crises” that everyone shrais about).

    This was the point of the whole drei, as it then follows why there is (unfortunately) resentment towards the Kollel system as it exists today.

    That being said, I’m glad you now understand that was not my point.

    #1036930

    Randomex
    Member

    Gavra:

    The p’shat given by PAA, which you say is similar to the one you favor, does not mean that certain people should not learn full-time (for at least some period of time), only that they should not learn in a certain way.

    No one really believes that the entire nation is meant to learn in

    kollel full-time while their wives work and/or somebody supports them, do they? If that is indeed the mindset of the system, then something is presumably wrong.

    #1036931

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    No one really believes that the entire nation is meant to learn in kollel full-time while their wives work and/or somebody supports them, do they?

    Sure seems like it in certain circles.

    If that is indeed the mindset of the system, then something is presumably wrong.

    Hence the resentment.

    #1036932

    Joseph
    Participant

    “No one really believes that the entire nation is meant to learn in

    kollel full-time while their wives work and/or somebody supports them, do they? If that is indeed the mindset of the system, then something is presumably wrong.”

    Even the biggest proponents of Kollel don’t advocate or expect *every* yungerman to go to Kollel. And certainly no one holds that “the entire nation” should be in Kollel. The claim that anyone holds something like that, which you sometimes hear advanced by those opposed to Kollel, is a red herring.

    #1036933

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Lior –

    I always thought a red herring was a completely unimportant detail which is brought up to obfuscate an issue. The claim that “in certain circles” it seems that they believe the entire nation should be in Kollel is far from a red herring. It is a deliberate and vicious misrepresentation of the position of the Gedolei Yisrael who are the leaders of said “certain circles”, which is intended to undermine the authority of Torah leadership.

    The only way I am able to give the benefit of the doubt to those who spew this vitriolic rhetoric is to assume that they have been misled by others as to the belief system of “certain circles”. It is possible that they do not consciously intend to undermine the Gedolim; they do not realize that the reason this claim appeals to them is that by undermining the authority of Torah leadership, it frees them from what they perceive to be a restrictive lifestyle.

    In any case, it is a dangerous assertion which necessarily alienates a great number of people. No wonder the resentment…

    #1036934

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joe, (AKA “Catch Me” we did) I’m not going to bother with you.

    Even the biggest proponents of Kollel don’t advocate or expect *every* yungerman to go to Kollel. And certainly no one holds that “the entire nation” should be in Kollel. The claim that anyone holds something like that, which you sometimes hear advanced by those opposed to Kollel, is a red herring.

    Yes, they need some second class citizens to support the learners, no? They do expect every individual to be in Kollel for as long as they can hold out, and when they leave, they exist to support those who still remain (As a certain Israeli Rosh Yeshiva says, “I’m doing them a favor by taking their money and making their Gehennom a little less hot”.).

    But Lior, in case you are right, I will agree. Which Roshei Yeshiva or Yeshivos (non-Chassidish, who don’t believe in the whole “kollel for life” thing, as they actually believe in Tznius and that women should be homemakers) push their talmidim out of Kollel and into (or even prepare them for) the workforce? I can think of Chofetz Chaim, YU/Landers/Ohr Hachaim, and that’s it. If you can show me someone who announced that their Talmidim (or even a subset) should go work, I’ll agree that the group is excluded.

    Show me.

    #1036935

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Gavra –

    I don’t know who Joe is or why you thought that I am he; I most certainly am not.

    I noticed that you don’t have a response to my point. Offhand dismissal of a cogent point is a favorite technique of successful debaters, but it does not prove anything.

    I don’t know to which Israeli Rosh Yeshiva it is that you refer; nor did you deign it necessary to provide any context to the statement he supposedly made. All I can say is that I never heard any such divisive rhetoric from my own Rebbeim (in well known Yeshivos, none of which are mentioned in your most recent post). On the contrary, many of my friends from Yeshiva are now working as lawyers, doctors, accountants and in many other occupations. Some are selling insurance or mortgages; others are laying tiles and fixing pipes. Some spent several years in Kollel before finding a job; others spent only one or two years in Beis Medrash after High School.

    Far from being considered “second class citizens”, all of them are highly respected in their communities (and most live in Lakewood) as B’nei Torah with great integrity and commitment to values. All this with the encouragement and support of their Rebbeim. Some of them happen to be their Rebbeim’s own children, whose fathers pushed them “out of the Beis Medrash” with both hands.

    The fact is that there is a lot of ignorant and hateful talk which gets in the way of the truth.

    We can have a debate about the issues, but not with inflammatory arguments. That’s not a debate, it’s a fight.

    #1036936

    Randomex
    Member

    Gavra_at_work:

    I’m not really involved in this, but…

    Of course it doesn't, and that is not what I said. Straw Man.

    Joe, (AKA "Catch Me" we did) I'm not going to bother with you.

    That’s two strikes against you.

    Please refrain from ad hominem arguments.

    #1036937

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    catch yourself – You have no profile. After the Mods confirm that you are not the well known “Joseph”, I will look at your comment and consider it.

    Not Joseph, and a perfectly normal profile.

    #1036938

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Thanks Mods, it has happened too many times in the past.

    catch yourself, I will BEHY comment when I have a few minutes to read your post.

    #1036939

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    catch yourself – One point I feel that I should make is that you are correct in that this attitude has Boruch Hashem not gone outside of the hardcore yeshivos (ex. South Fallsburg?) in America. I remember a stat? that at 30, most guys are out of BMG and have a job.

    So Ein Hachi Nami.

    Randomex – Checking to see if someone is Joseph is logical after he shows up as “user has no profile”, and I haven’t seen them before (and I’ve been here quite a while). I don’t ask it of DY.

    #1036940

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Gavra –

    I must acknowledge that (due to my own ignorance) I misunderstood your previous post.

    I thought that you were avoiding the issue by acting as though my argument did not deserve a response.

    In fact, you were ignoring me under the (mistaken) impression that I was a well known troll, who in fact would not deserve a response.

    See how far a little bit of ignorance can go? 🙂

    #1036941

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Just wondering…

    Did my own previous posts in this thread also sound like the infamous Joseph?

    #1036942

    Randomex
    Member

    If there is a space in a user’s name, clicking on their name will take you to an error page – manually replace the spaces in their name in the page URL with dashes (-) to see their profile.

    If you are using Internet Explorer (and possibly other browsers),

    the space(s) in the name will have been replaced by “%20” – replace that with a dash.

    You must not look at many profile pages – it’s hard to believe you didn’t know this after six years. Then again, in your time, it seems posters were encouraged to have underscores rather than spaces in their names – e.g, gavra_at_work, popa_bar_abba.

    Also, it’s “In Hachi Nami.”

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