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I remember a conversation I had with someone who said it was mutar to steal in order to save ones life or to learn Torah. The second one especially is worrisome.
Has anyone learned about this topic?
To save one’s life, yes. To learn Torah, no.
I thought everybody knew that…
The second one especially is worrisome.
Why are you more worried about the second one than the first one? Is a spiritual life less important than a physical life?
To save one’s life, yes. To learn Torah, no.
Source?
You cannot do a Mitzvah via an Averiah ie you cannot wear a stolen Teffilin
Yes, it’s mutar to steal in order to save your life (or someone else’s)–befeirush din in choshen mishpat 359:4. You do have to pay back, though. I’ve never heard that you can steal to learn Torah. That sounds like mitzvah haba ba’aveirah.
newbee, are you again mixing things up? I took no position. I simply asked a question and requested a source.
The source for this discussion is bava kama 60b. Teh rishonim and achromin are based around that gemorah. I believe that although these are questions on how to learn some of the rishonim, pretty much everyone says that l’halacha it mutar. Don’t trust this though (not that you would anyway!), its just an old memory
I don’t think it’s technically a mitzvah haba ba’averah, the way that term is used in the sugya in Lulav Hagazul. Might be conceptually the same.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman hy’d wrote a letter during the war that is was better not to escape the war into a place where one’s spiritual being is at risk even if that means one remains at physical risk.
Im not sure Rav Elchanon Wasserman really knew that the Nazis meant they would kill the jews and elimate Judaism from Eastern Europe as successful as they did. Nobody really belived they would. They just thought there was danger, but that yiddishkeit would survive
FYI Rav Wasserman sent his son Simcha to the US right before the war in order that he escape
But you had an agenda no?
No.
Joseph, are you seriously advocating that it is best to be gassed to death in Nazi Germany than send your kids to Brooklyn?
Source?
Seriously?
See Rashi Bava Kama 60b and the Achronim there about stealing to save one’s life.
No one ever has said that it’s Muttar to steal in order to learn.
Zahavasdad, the Chafetz Chaim told Rav Elchonon in so many words that there would be a holocaust.
Ago, what exactly were the so many words?
Avi K: Although I am philosophically aligned with you, your statement about the Chofetz Chaim and R”Elchonon does not ring true. The Chofetz Chaim died in 1933, I think, and I highly doubt that anyone in Europe had any inkling what would happen. Unless you produce an actual recording, this story is an invention
I don’t recall anything about the Holy Chafetz Chaim foretelling, I do know that R’ Elchonon did, and he was quite open about it. He wrote about it in Kuntraisim (forgot which). Other Torah giants and Tzadikkim were also quite open about it, they urged their flock to do Tshuva, mend their ways. Some, like in the time of the Churban, were hushed, “why are you making such a tumult?”, etc. and their reply was, “what should I do? We’re saying what we see”.
newbee, Obviously the Gedolim of that time, who ruled differently, dared disagree with you. And they don’t need my one and a half sense, but I can easily surmise they held that coming to America is akin to total shmad, which unfortunately was the rule of the day for most, and one must give up one’s life for that.
“Seriously?”
Half your statement isn’t blatantly obvious.
“I believe its safe to say that ANYONE (Rabbi or not) who told people in the community to STAY IN NAZI GERMANY while they could have escaped to America was wrong in retrospect to give such advise. Does anyone disagree with this?”
HaGaon HaRav Elchonon Wasserman ztvk’l hy’d disagrees with you, if the circumstances would have put one’s spiritual life at risk, as he stated being rescued by YU would do. (And as the majority of frum Jews who came to America in the many decades before WWII became non-frum in America.)
The Italian court on May 3rd issued a ruling that a homeless person who has nothing to eat, and hence stole a small amount of food from supermarket to stave hunger:- That was not deemed stealing, and wasn’t illegal.
So c/o the Italian court, ee have a new definition of stealing being permitted to save human life.
Kindly cool it, newbee. A bit of respect for the Godolei Olam, Kedoshim uTehorim of the past.
Their psak was divrei Elokim Chaim. Contrary to your (and many other’s) belief, their ruling was not a haphazard saying, byword or assumption. They knew the gravity of their words, gave precise, directed rulings. And they knew what they were talking about. I would think it’s utter chutzpa to address these Gedolim in such a manner.
FYI, you claim that your ancestor came here was frum and etc. and here you are. Woopie Doo. How many thousands of other were not. Do you know the figure of the masses of Jews that came in that era, and prior to it, only to be TOTALLY LOST? Them, their children etc? OK? And those that were murdered, did so keeping the Torah, so they did not have a misas neshamah r”l. Open a sefer, kindly, (that’s a Jewish book) and read about ???? ??????? ???? ?? ??????.
Yes, those that were nebach killed, with Shma on their lips, were a lot luckier than those that came here to abandon their Jewishness.
A good chunk of those who perished were not relgious. Proably a majority of jews in Europe were not religious even in 1939.
I was reading a raw account (many accounts of the holocaust are filtered because the survivors have alot of guilt for suriving and their own actions (like stealing) in order to surive) of the warsaw ghetto. The writer says that during the deportations in the summer of 1942 peoples greatest fear was not only dying, but disappearing forever meaning not even a trace of their existence. In fact Yad Vashem who has tried to at least give a name to all the victims only has about 1.5-2 million of them
Just a side note, After the wars, the Rabbanim who remained, NONE decided to rebuild in detroyed Europe. THey decided to rebuild in previously forbidden places mostly the US and Israel, but Canada and the UK.
Given that even the Satmar Rebbe decided to rebuild elsewhere after he forbid moving, its is very probable the Rav Wasserman would have tried to rebuild elsewhere as well
The words of Gedolim are Divrei Elokim Chaim? I… I don’t even know what that means. Gedolim are Elohim Chaim? That sounds like Avodah Zarah. They’re Nevi’im? That’s just not true (and against a Gemara). If you have a point to make here, LF (I think you do, even if I strongly disagree), but I think you overreached with that line.
Sam, where do you want to draw the line as to where we say Divrei Elokim Chaim? There is a gemara which applies it to the words said by human beings, so if you, “don’t even know what that means”, perhaps it’s your criticism which is overreaching.
DY: I’m pretty sure that when the phrase is used in the Gemara, it refers to something that is a Chelek of Torah Sheba’al Peh. Unless you want to tell me that HKBH told Moshe about the Holocaust at Har Sinai (and with the intention of that information being passed down), then it’s not Divrei Elokim Chaim. (Right, that’s the point. Torah Sheba’al Peh is straight from HKBH, and both Drashos/possibilities/etc. were given at Sinai. It’s not Stam a statement by human beings.)
You can apply Eilu V’eilu here.
:??”? ??????? ?”?. ??”? ??”?
??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=15&daf=57&format=pdf
Little Froggie: Well said. Yasher Koach.
DY: Yes, that’s also a Chelek of Torah Sheba’al Peh.
Sam: I’m sorry. Some were raised and brought up with some view (obviously lacking Daas Torah) that there is no daas Torah. According to their views everything has to match ACCORDING TO THEIR UNDERSTANDING to something written bfeirush in Torah or Chazal. Every thing has to make sense to them before accepting. So of course this concept is difficult for some to comprehend.
We, however, were brought up with the dictum of Emnunas Tzadikim. The concept of ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????. The idea of ??? ?? ??. The adage of ???? ??? ????? ????. Sorry. I got that from a bfeirushe Mishna. By us Rabbonim, Gedolei Torah are held in the highest esteem, their word is the word of G-D. And is Daas Torah. For that is what HaShem told us to do!!! HaShem wouldn’t have told us to listen to them if He didn’t want us to. Our Gedolim are not Nevi’im. They were not meant to be. They are much greater. AND WE ARE BIDDEN LO LISTEN TO THEM!!
newbee: I’m not going to argue with you about this. It’s not my reasoning, decision, nothing to do with me. And I don’t have to defend it, Rav Elchonon doesn’t need little me to stick up for him.
Calling a Kadosh Elyon wrong is over the line. There is nothing, nothing I could say more than “watch your mouth”. And that is my macha’a.
<<End of discussion>>
Yes, Sam, sevara can be considered Torah sheba’al peh, so LF is correct.
Unless you want to draw the line at some generation. Would you say eilu v’eilu for Rishonim? Acharonim?
You would need to prove your chilluk before launching an attack based on your own self drawn line.
By us Rabbonim, Gedolei Torah are held in the highest esteem, their word is the word of G-D. And is Daas Torah. For that is what HaShem told us to do!!! HaShem wouldn’t have told us to listen to them if He didn’t want us to. Our Gedolim are not Nevi’im. They were not meant to be. They are much greater. AND WE ARE BIDDEN LO LISTEN TO THEM!!
And, so, I ask you a question that was asked of another member years ago:
If you saw a Gadol lift a piece of meat out of a pig with your own eyes and roast it, put it on a plate and hand it to you and said, “It’s kosher, eat it,” would you do so?
The Wolf
????? ???? ???????? ????? ??????? – ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?”?, ??? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???, ???? – ????? ?????
???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????
Not to “judge” any specific decisions or cases, or Chas Veshalom to disrespect any Gedolim, but even Gedolim Talmidei Chachamim can make mistakes, and egregious ones at that.
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