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1. demosthenes
   Member

   Dear frantic people who fill their time on this world by trying to find reasons for problems rather than find solutions, (i.e. most of you who are reading this now). I would like to tell you a story about a brother and sister. As the older brother sat quietly in his room playing with his block/legos/knex which ever one you played with depending on how old you are ( I know I forgot erecter sets, but come on those are just nerdy, I’m not gonna make fun of Lincoln logs though cause those are just cool, I mean come on they can hold a whole city together with just two grooves, but I digress, wait before I digress which genius in the architecture department was accidentally transferred to the toy floor, okay now I digress) his younger sister came into the room and knocked down what he was building and ran out, the older brother being patient and kind calmly picked up his blocks and started to rebuild, after 5 minutes his younger sister came back in and again knocked down his architectural masterpiece, after the fifth time of this happening the boy who was just 10 years old lost his cool and punched his sister in the face. The mother heard the cry and ran in, saw the little girl crying and immediately assumed that her brother was the culprit when in reality the little girl was long overdue for a punch in the face.

   I think what I’m trying to say is that girls have been digging there own shidduch crisis hole for quite some time. While boys are going to yeshiva and slowly but surely maturing (to the best of there limited abilities) girls are lining up at the shaddchuns door from as early as age 18 (Even before the end of shana bet) so they can find there bashert who happens to always be the best guy in Lakewood. If the would just hold their proverbial horses for another two years this whole shidduch would go into the back pages of history along with the cold war and the Cuban missile crisis. So please, stop trying to think of new rules for guys to follow, rules that are just beating around the bush so many times that there is a moat around it. Instead tell your daughters and talmidos(t) to wait until they reach the ripe “old” age of……wait for it…..20, to start looking for that perfect Lakewood guy.

   Posted 2 years ago #

2. shaatra
   Member

   Oh yeah boys are PERFECT!!! (My eyes just rolled to the back of my head)

   And please, your speaking from a mans point of view (I'm assuming)

   Posted 2 years ago #

3. haifagirl
   Chief of Grammar Enforcement Commandos

   demosthenes - I don't recall seeing any of your posts before. I found this one quite enjoyable. I like your style.

   Posted 2 years ago #

4. havesomeseichel
   Member

   cute digressions, right on target that girls should wait until they are 20 but there is a slight problem- facts on boys. I mean, maybe the boys should mature earlier. Maybe the guys should be taught to be responsible and how to be a father/man of the house earlier like girls are taught their stuff in high school (home ec anyone?).girls are taught in some math classes how to balance a checkbook but boys are treated with kid gloves.
   both sides are at fault and BOTH need help. No ONE group is responsible but each is making the hole bigger and bigger and bigger. (can you see china yet?)

   Posted 2 years ago #

5. tzippi
   Member

   Havesomeseichel, perhaps Demosthenes was subconciously saying that boys have been and are being emasculated, and need permission to develop their more creative sides and not deny it instead of being pushed into some "best boy in yeshiva" cookie mold. Sounds more like the learning gap than age gap.

   Maybe he can rewrite his essay so we'll all be able to understand not just his conclusion, which didn't fully follow, but his reasoning.

   And Demosthenes, how long have you been so misogynistic?

   Posted 2 years ago #

6. tzippi
   Member

   Demosthenes, my apologies for being so "teef." But you do see how a girl, let's call her Cicera, who had a bully of an older brother is still feeling worn down by a system that is geared to boys (you know the old line about boys needing a secretary, girls a press agent) and that makes her feel like so much meat, and not even the freshest.

   I'm not saying whose reality is more accurate, just commenting.

   Posted 2 years ago #

7. bein_hasdorim
   Member

   demosthenes: Thanks for that long overdue comment!

   shaatra: Typical girls response!

   The poster (who might be a woman) makes a great point!

   havesomeseichel: Do me a favor Puleeezzzzzzz!

   Most of the breakups that I am aware of is do to an immature girl!
   (and an overbearing meddlesome Shvigger!)

   They come out of seminary these girls, Brainwashed that they should seek the next
   Gadol Hador as their mate, regardless to the possibility that they are not
   interested in what that entails, or if they really want such an Ehrliche boy.

   Then if they get what they claimed they wanted, the magic of seminary wears off
   and they're just left with plain Chana, or Yenta, or whatever their name is,
   Suddenly they realize hey! This isn't really what I wanted.
   I dont wanna work no more. I want my hubby to work & I wanna shop & wear Prada,
   & look pretty. Like my friend Esti.

   So DON'T give me this baloney of the boys aren't mature, but the girls are
   waaaaaaaaayyyy beyond their years in maturity & wisdom! Let's start when their 16.
   YEAH RIGHT!!!!!! I hope some of the people with Seichel will realize there is
   truth to this.

   Posted 2 years ago #

8. tzippi
   Member

   Bein Hasedorim, we also have to start with the BOYS' chinuch, giving them breathing room and being mechanech al pi darkom.

   Posted 2 years ago #

9. justin2
   Member

   I actually sort of agree with the poster. From my experience, based on myself and my friends, the girl was almost always the one who ended the "longer" relationships (dealing with shidduch dating, so anything more than 5 or 6 dates). That doesn't mean all the blame should be on girls, but for the most part, I think girls are more picky than guys, once the guy agrees to go out. Part of the reason, in my opinion, is that girls are expecting to feel "magic" and if they don't, the guy's obviously not for them. Most of the girls who have this mindset, from what I've observed, also happen to be the "older" girls, which is one of the reasons why sometimes guys don't want to bother going out with them. I also think that if there was a little more realism, if that's a word, taught to girls, the shidduch crisis won't be as bad.

   Posted 2 years ago #

10. jphone
    Member

    I think the entire chinuch system needs an overhaul.

    How many "best boys" and "next rosh yeshiva" are there in every yeshiva? Whatever the number, it is a small percentage. How many fine ehrliche boys that would make wonderful husbands are there in yeshiva? Certainly not all, but a high percentage.

    How many "best girls" and "the next rosh yeshivas wife" are there in every seminary? How many wonderful fine upstanding girls are there in every seminary?

    If everyone would be taught that its ok if your not the next "best guy" and "rosh yeshiva" and its ok if you dont marry the "best guy" and "next rosh yeshiva" and its ok if your wife was not the "best in the seminary" things would be so much better.

    Since everyone is expected to be the best guy/next rosh yeshiva and is expected to marry the best girl/next great rebbetzin and the girls only want the best guy/next rosh yeshiva , nobody looks for an ehrlicher boy or fine girl.

    Sure, everyone should strive to be the best, but its ok if they are not the "best boy in the yeshiva" but they should be "the best boy that they can possibly be in the yeshiva". Same with the girls.

    Posted 2 years ago #

11. artchill
    Member

    demosthenes: Two years is extreme and sounds like another attempt at age-gapology.

    1] If a girl comes back from seminary with pie in the sky ideas which are not ideas she had prior to her year in seminary and are diametricly opposed to her upbringing, by all means let her wait until she lands. Reasess her ideas in six months to see where she is holding on the issues. Otherwise, she will either marry quickly and wake up to reality too late, or get engaged, freak out, and break up.

    2] If a girl comes back with the same hashkafos and didn't monumentaly change her overall worldview on basic Jewish living, and SHE chooses to date there is no reason to hold her back. Judaism doesn't practice MARRIAGE CONTROL, no matter how great a "crisis" might be.

    Posted 2 years ago #

12. havesomeseichel
    Member

    I was speaking from personal experience. Boys are treated very differently than girls. Home ec is expected for women. Boys are barely taught how to balance a checkbook! Boys are kept in an enclosed environment for several years and dont know about the real world. the value of a dollar. To many, money grows out of the ATM. They run out- mom and dad put more in. Many girls have this while in seminary, but afterwords many work full time. Boys are kept in the "seminary mindset" for several years...

    Posted 2 years ago #

13. havesomeseichel
    Member

    Oh, and why do the boys need so much more time to mature? Obviously they arent doing that maturing when the girls are! Yes, many girls are pushed to marry when they are immature, but why is it expected for guys to not date anyone before 24? I dont say close there should be marriage control, just that the guys should be forced to mature earlier.

    Posted 2 years ago #

14. tzippi
    Member

    H-someseichel, since when it is expected for boys not to date before 24? Most guys I know are starting at 22. Though I do know some kids who definitely should NOT start before 24. Think of the alter Mirrers, who started late because they knew that once they got married, the intense learning might well be over. Hmmm, may be on to something....

    Posted 2 years ago #

15. mchemtob
    Member

    demosthenes - lets say the girls decide to wait til twenty to date (which i think is a good idea regardless) who says these boys will want them and not someone younger

    Posted 2 years ago #

16. mazal77
    Member

    I think it's the parents of the boys who should suggest to their sons that maybe they should look for a girl over 20 years old. I think some boys wouldn't mind, but it's their parents that have that mindset.

    Posted 2 years ago #

17. bein_hasdorim
    Member

    In my experience, It is a total mailoh for a guy to date a girl who is already out of
    seminary for a year or two. It is also safer bet, as far as having a long term marriage, for has a bigger chance of meeting the real girl, already fizzled out
    of her seminary, "Reality Distortion". Let me explain that term.

    I don't C"V think seminaries brainwash their girls C"V. as I miswrote earlier.
    I simply mean they pump them up with very high aspirations & expectation etc..
    not the worst thing in the world, however, some girls buy into thinking they're at levels they might not actually be on. (not being so honest with themselves) & not taking the real world/reality of things into consideration. I think this is a problem with the boys as well, (Rosh Yesivah/Gadol Hador syndrome)

    So in conclusion, when a boy dates a girl that is out of seminary for a year or two,
    reality starts to sink in, her own personality shines through & she is forced to come to terms that she isn't the best thing since sliced bread, & that she doesn't need
    the biggest masmid/lamdan of her city/country. Perhaps she wants to raise a family
    in a few years, & not be a speech therapist/special educationer, Ad Meah V'esrim
    Shonah,(till 120.) Plus she gets to mature a little more (if thats Shayich ;) )

    So Bochurim, Please Do Not grab the youngest girl just because you were told so,
    by your friend, (who does't know squat) or parents who are just following the crowd.
    Take a girl who wont surprise you in few years leaving you thinking, who is she?

    Posted 2 years ago #

18. goody613
    last remaining Member

    seminaries brainwashed girls. and girls have to go to seminary b/c all their friends are!

    Posted 2 years ago #

19. NY Mom
    Member

    bein_hasdorim: I really agree with what you just wrote. (Your post #2 in this thread.) I don't have children in shidduchim, yet, but be"H I think that is how I will conduct myself with my sons and daughters. Of course, it depends on the individual, so if one child's needs are different, that must take precedence. But your general philosophy is very practical!

    Posted 2 years ago #

20. HIE
    pops/son/little bro joint acct

    i have a brother who is almost 21; i keep on hocking up that he should start dating already but he's not listening.he, together with my father, say "another year". what can i do, i did my hishtadlus!

    Posted 2 years ago #

21. pookie
    Member

    harsh, but i like it

    Posted 2 years ago #

22. bein_hasdorim
    Member

    tzippi: Chanoich L'naar al pi Darkoi, Is a timeless piece of advice.

    NY Mom: Thanks! I am not anti-girls nor pro-guys, I was merely pointing out that this worn-out claim that girls are super mature & guys are very immature, is not accurate at all!

    Posted 2 years ago #

23. Goan Atzum
    Member

    I only have on thing to say on this topic Demosthenes hit the Shidduch "crisis" right on the nose and I agree with just about every thing that he/she said...especially that lincoln logs thing

    Posted 2 years ago #

24. tzippi
    Member

    Hashem is everywhere: are you serious? Is your brother capable of shouldering all the burdens of life? I know, a lot of guys, if not most, don't have degrees, etc. when they get married, but they have to be prepared, emotionally and otherwise to drop whatever they're doing to get that training because no one knows what life will bring. I think that many boys at just under 21 - that's barely three years out of high school - are better off learning full time without distractions.

    Posted 2 years ago #

25. tzippi
    Member

    And I hit send too fast: how old was your father when he got married? What do your parents think?

    Posted 2 years ago #

26. BasYisroel2
    Member

    Bain hasedorim I agree with you to a point.Overall most girls are more mature than boys that is why a girl is bas mitzvah at the age of 12 and a boy is at the age of 13- not that all girls are so mature to begin with.The biggest problem with boys that I find is thir mothers.I get the most insane questions from them regarding my friends does she smoke,what size is she,what summer camps did her grandmother go to ect... Mothers of boys are only intersted in someone who is beautiful,yichus,big name out there,went to Seminary X, forever support and it makes me sick.My friend and myself only want erliche boys from erliche families but apparently they have been brainwashed by their mommies who are looking for a barbie doll with big yichus and money!Don't tell me it's not a most people because I have no idea where the normal boys and there mothers are hiding.You can't win.One woman told my mother that she didn't want her son to go out with a girl because she was too pretty-this is a normal erliche frum girl.People only want a Rosh Yeshiva's daughter,billonare's daughter.Why can't people pick peole based opn their middos, their avodas Hashem as long as someone comes from a decent erliche family is open to chesed has simmilar goals and values.Why is our generation obsesssed with only the outer things!Don't get me wrong a person has to be attracted to whom they marry, and marrying a rich person isn't a bad thing.The problem lies with people's priorities.What is the most imortant to them.Oh all the mothers who call me up want to know if the girl has good middos but they only dwell on the girl's middos for a second, they spend more like a half an hour findidng out about the girl's money,house and yichus.

    ENOUGH is ENOUGH!

    Posted 2 years ago #

27. cholentkugelkishke
    Member

    Anyone who ever redd a shidduch, knows it can be just as difficult to deal with the girl's side as the boy's. So you really can't only blame the boys.

    Posted 2 years ago #

28. bein_hasdorim
    Member

    BasYisroel2: I agree, there is plenty of blame to go around.
    On the boys side it seems to be the primarily the mother, on the girls side, however, it seems to be the girls echoing their seminaries, using a yardstick thats size,
    few can measure up to.

    Posted 2 years ago #

29. HIE
    pops/son/little bro joint acct

    tzippi: he has about 1 more year for his bachelors degree. my parents want him to wait another year, not necessarily because of the degree, just because they think he needs more time.

    Posted 2 years ago #

30. locke erasmus
    Member

    Dear Demothenes,

    In the spirit of using long drawn out stories to illustrate a point that could have been made without taking up everyone else’s time, I too have a story I would like to tell, One that has a root in my own childhood experiences. I was once sitting in my room alone reading a book. When my little sister, whose will remain nameless for L”H purposes, came in and for no apparent reason pulled my hair. Me being the typical 12 year immediately retaliated with some violent gesture, of whose nature I don’t remember. My sister immediately started to cry and yell for my Father that I had hurt her. Abba ran in and started to tell me not to hurt my little sister anymore. I quickly responded with that age old response that I’m sure Eisav said to Yitzchok when ever he picked a fight with Yaakov Aveinu, “But he started it, Honorable Father!!” My Father answered me with the response that I think I will put in bold and Caps Lock, “I DON’T CARE WHO STARTED IT, I JUST WANT YOU BOTH TO FINISH IT”

    I think I have made my point clear, even though I may be a “frantic person who tries to find reasons for problems rather than find solutions. It maybe that girls have dug there own Shidduch Crisis hole, although that is EXTREMELY debatable, but I think that as in the story it doesn’t matter who is to blame, the according to you “immature” boys or the girls of the tiny tiny age of …..“wait for it”….18, both have to work together to reach a point where there is no Shidduch Crisis and there is once more. We have to cross over that “moat around the bush” that was caused by rules that where enacted by our Gedolim by the way, and help each other solve the problem. Demothenes if you look in the “back pages of history” at the Cold War and The Cuban Missile Crisis you will see they where both problems that people….wait for it….SOLVED!

    Posted 2 years ago #

31. tzippi
    Member

    Hashem Is Everywhere, why do you think your parents don't know what's best?

    Posted 2 years ago #

32. mybat
    Member

    Why can´t people look for a GOOD guy/girl with GOOD midot, from a nice family, who will want to raise a nice jewish home? Whether or not the guy is in kollel? Bein Hasdorim is right, they are not being realistic with what they want in life. Just because a persons friends and family are all marrying kollel people doesnt mean you have to do the same.

    Posted 2 years ago #

33. willi
    Member

    TO the one suggesting that girls get engaged later- first of all, although it may hurt to hear, girls DO mature earlier than boys most of the time. So if a girl feels ready, why should she wait? If a good offer comes up, why not go for it? I really don't see your point. Can you please explain?

    Posted 2 years ago #

34. melechalmaklo
    Member

    ... LOT to say here!

    The shidduch issue is NOT an age issue. it is an image issue. while boys are still in e"y, if they start dating they look for a girl. once they come back and enter the dating "scene," they start looking for a business deal. they tally up their "worth" based on what yeshivas they went to and how smart they are and decide what they "deserve" and what they can "get." now they demand a girl who is rich and famous and will not consider not "doing a good shidduch." when the rich older girls are all married, the boys start dating the younger rich girls who will allow them to learn while they sit back without a worry on their minds.

    firstly, this is what causes the shidduch crisis. the girls whose parents aren't loaded with cash and who are working hard because they really want the kollel life can't get a date because all the boys are looking for the easy life. where is our mesiras nefesh for torah? is the kollel life one of la la land with the responsibilities all loaded on the parents?? and what kind of chinuch are you giving to your children when you value money so much that you can only learn if you are supported???

    and what happens when mr. rich f-i-l becomes not so rich f-i-l?? will miss rich still be so supportive of learning?? maybe its better to marry a girl who is demonstrating her commitment to learning by actually working hard to achieve this goal?

    Posted 2 years ago #

35. melechalmaklo
    Member

    and if it takes moving out of town or going to a kollel that's not the boy's first choice, then consider that your mesiras nefesh! the girl has to support and have the children and take care of the house and relocate to somewhere that the boy chooses and maybe even commute to work and/or school??? why cant the boy at least do his little bit of hishtadlus of pitching in and be willing to learn somewhere outside lakewood where he can get help from a kollel?? why is the boy's learning so delicate that he can only learn in one place?

    and again, is image coming into play? are the boys so worried what people will think of them that they can't go out of town? what happened to having a little backbone? and doing what's right and not what's accepted???

    Posted 2 years ago #

36. tzippi
    Member

    To melechalmaklo: certainly chinuch is at the core. But the demographics is a real issue, and an easy symptom to get at. No reason not to make a few attempts at evening the numbers first (i.e. date the first few times within range). But personally I would like to see the other issues addressed with as much passion.

    Posted 2 years ago #

37. jewwithnomoney
    Member

    to melechalmaklo

    If the shidduch crisis affects the girls more than the boys, shouldn't the girls be the ones making sacrifices in order to get a shidduch? If the guys have so many choices they have no need to accept anything but what they consider the best. I'm not saying that's the way it should be, in fact I don't do any of the things you say boys do when looking for shidduchim, I don't want my in laws to support me and I would live anywhere that I can make a living. Of course you're talking about learning boys and I'm a working guy so it's a whole different situation but bottom line is you can't place all the blame on the boys. don't hate the players hate the game.

    Posted 2 years ago #

38. tzippi
    Member

    To jewwithnomoney: where's the menschlichkeit?
    The problem with the "they have no need to accept anything but the best mentality" was explained pretty well in a recent article on the shidduch crisis and the danger of dimyon, constant comparison and holding off for the best.

    Posted 2 years ago #

39. AZ
    Member

    melechalmaklo: according to your theory there should be a boatload of older single boys sitting around waiting for a PHD. It's just not so. Surely boys are able to make demands etc. but that is a derivative of the crisis not a cause. Ask Tzippy she'll explain it to you.

    Posted 2 years ago #

40. jewwithnomoney
    Member

    To Tzippi:

    where's the menschlichkeit?

    It's not a matter of menschlichkeit, I would argue that amongst people making demands in shidduchim there rarely is any. All I'm saying is that melechalmaklo's points make more sense directed at girls than guys. You would think that if the girls are having such a hard time, they would be less picky and stop expecting every tiny detail about the guy to be perfect.

    Posted 2 years ago #

41. melechalmaklo
    Member

    AZ

    I am talking about yeshivish learning boys. Things are different with working boys. Boys are not looking for PhDs because they don't believe in going to a secular college, and once girls become educated and sophisticated, they become too much for the yeshivish boys to handle.

    If there were boys waiting for a PhD we would be in good shape. There are plenty of intelligent, accomplished girls out there. The problem is that the boys or the boys' parents are looking for support from the girls' parents and not from the girls themselves. The boys want a stress-free life and a stress-free wife. And if the boys want to go right back to e"y where the wives can't work, the PhD becomes gannenet or at best, telemarketer.

    Posted 2 years ago #

42. tzippi
    Member

    I know plenty of boys who are would be thrilled with a PhD. They're looking for nurses, speech therapists (doesn't have to be kosher online either) and more.
    True, a lot of these girls find that their degrees are meaningless in E"Y. Hopefully they'll be able to pick up where they left off if they come back to the states, or they'll work hard to get the certification they need in E"Y.

    I'm not savvy enough to search here, snip, etc. but I believe AZ once said that of course boys will be ridiculously picky, due to the demographics. I simply commented there that I think it's really sad. If we have been given this nisayon of the shidduch crisis due to demographics, as is maintained (rather than say that we have created shidduch crisis due to poor chinuch, learning gap and other factors; OR rather than say it's a combination of such factors and demographics, IOW, if we're going to focus TOTALLY on demographics in finding a solution) then we have to say, wow, what a nisayon. Like all nisyanos, isn't Hashem putting us here to see if we act from our greatest strengths, with nobility and menschlichkeit?

    Instead, if you're going to say, well of course the boys WILL demand because they can, because of the supply, we're flunking this nisayon big time, and have to figure out how to educate to pass it.

    AZ, did I explain this clearly? Let me know if I need to clarify further.

    Posted 2 years ago #

43. melechalmaklo
    Member

    I come from a family of PhDs who plugged through the years of education solely to support a family long-term. From personal experience, boys would still rather rich in-laws and less accomplished girls. There is definitely a chinuch crisis. Of course the whole situation is a nisayon, but if there is something we can change, then it's our own responsibility to do so.

    Posted 2 years ago #

44. AZ
    Member

    When I wrote PHD i was referring to PAPA HAS DOUGH.

    There should be tons of yeshivish boys sitting and waiting for th Rich father in law and it just aint so.

    Now Please go back and read my post from the previous page.

    Posted 2 years ago #

45. tzippi
    Member

    OK, I get it.
    They don't have to wait for a "rich" papa, just one who's willing to overextend himself enough. And again, they are banking on the girls' parnasa. As one parent recently said, used to be that chas v'shalom girls went to college - oy, a career girl. Now the first question is, what's she doing.

    Isn't that supposed to be one of the reasons boys should prefer older girls, because they already have parnasa under their belts?

    Posted 2 years ago #

46. gavra_at_work
    Member

    Mrs. tzippi:

    No working girl can replace a PHD. After children (or EY), the cash flow stops & the boy then has to work/consider being mistapek B'muat, both of which for the boy is not prepared. With a PHD, the boy can learn being supported and not have any worries about parnassah, B"H!

    Posted 2 years ago #

47. tzippi
    Member

    But there are only so many PHDs.
    And I know plenty of girls getting married to middle class (or barely) families, who are somehow getting supported. Even if it's a ZHD, Z's money can only stretch so far due to all the branches.

    Posted 2 years ago #

48. melechalmaklo
    Member

    AZ
    from your previous post "according to your theory there should be a boatload of older single boys sitting around waiting for a PHD. It just isn't so."

    You bet it is so! the older long-term learners that are still around are most definitely looking for support. At this point, they are not looking for it for practicality reasons because the older girls already have degrees, etc. They are looking for it because they feel they deserve it and feel gypped if they didn't get it. Why is that the case?
    The chinuch crisis that i mentioned is exactly what gavra_at_work mentioned. The girls are being taught to be mistapek b'muat while the boys are being taught to look for money. there's a disparity there that i think needs to be reconciled on a broad scale...

    Posted 2 years ago #

49. tzippi
    Member

    To melechalmaklo: I wonder. I hear about the boys who are asking for six digits, a house, etc. but honestly, the boys who are "only" after the basic five year plan may be more practical than greedy. How far does a supplemental 12k a year go, anyway, sometimes? Maybe 12k is mistapek b'muat.

    Posted 2 years ago #

50. AZ
    Member

    melechalmaklo: In BMG as of Pesach there were 942 single boys. Guess how many were 27 and still single???

    17!!!

    Doesn't sound like there are to many boys hanging around looking for money to me.

    (remember a 27 year old boy is equivalent to a 24 year old girl- dating 5 years).

    Posted 2 years ago #

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