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MDG: I made that same argument in my deleted comment. The problem is that that logic only holds up when the Psak is valid.
a jew who cares: I trust my community Rov. And I also trust him to know that he’s not the Posek HaDor and doesn’t have a right to Pasken certain things.
“doesn’t have a right to Pasken certain things.”
So you trust as long as he wouldn’t pasken anything that falls out of your comfort zone. Not sure if that can be called trust…
A jew who cares: I hope you agree that not every Shul or community Rav has a right to Pasken on life-and-death or Klal Yisrael policy issues.
I trust that if my Rav feels it isn’t within his scope to pasken regarding a certain issue, he will consult with others before doing so.
Though a driving policy within a certain community is certainly not a life and death issue or a klal yisrael policy.
(For the record: my Rav does allow women to drive.)
Actually, driving can be a life or death issue.
There’s something called gemach Hatzuleh for people that can’t afford rides to hospitals doctors etc and yes the local bus goes to walmart
And if it’s only a lady going herself they send a goiyishe lady driver
Thanks KJC. Although this thread has kind of moved on I hope ZD realizes that despite being suburban, driving is not always a necessity if the community is proactive about finding solutions.
Mammele as someone who grew up in the Suburbs and many times we could not afford a car, I am well aware of what its like not to have a car in the suburbs and its very difficult
Most of those solutions involve driving.
KJC stated that KJ has various forms of public and private transportation they make available to residents that other suburban towns do not have.
KJ is far better geared to provide its residents transportation than the vast majority of any other suburban area.
KJ’s transportation infrastructure is more comparable to NYC’s public transportation than to Monsey’s.
Agreed, it’s difficult in the suburbs. But in KJ for women it’s the norm and as mentioned a lot has been done to make it easier for them – you admittedly didn’t grow up in KJ.
Wait, so if it’s not Tznius for women to drive why are we allowed to utilize non-Jewish women drivers?
We can be meikil l’gabei amira l’akum.
“MDG: I made that same argument in my deleted comment. The problem is that that logic only holds up when the Psak is valid.”
1) Their rebbe is not my posek, but he is their posek. To them, his psak is valid.
2) I don’t know about psak that socially motivated. Maybe there are guidelines for that.
Sam: I don’t quite get your question. We are talking about frum women using non Jewish female drivers. Obviously we Jews have higher standards of modesty.
I cant believe how uncomfortable some people become, when the practices others adopt for themselves are brought up.
apy – agreed, but why do practice they adopt for themselves have to end up in all of our newsstories?
apy – agreed, but why do practice they adopt for themselves have to end up in all of our newsstories?
1: They are new. Had they been doing this for hundreds of years, if would not be newsworthy.
2: Man bits Dog
3: Comparisons of Ultra-Orthodox to Muslims/Taliban/ISIS.
Its amazing the same people who wonder why people are upset at Belz, have no problem condeming the people of Efrat. It should be their choice not anyone elses
Cars haven’t been around for hundreds of years. And Chasidic women hadn’t ever been widely licensed as drivers.
They didn’t choose to put this story in the news. It was propagated by anti-semites, mostly of the Jewish religious-hating variety.
A jewish anti-semite is someone who disagrees with you.
Mammele: If it’s not Tznius, it’s not Tznius. We don’t have non-Jews sing or dance or parade around undressed for us. Nor do we have them do such things for women. If this is a non-Tznius activity, then why are we allowed to let a non-Jew do it for us?
For the same reason why Yeshiva World like to publish all the controversial news stories.
“If it’s not Tznius, it’s not Tznius. We don’t have non-Jews sing or dance or parade around undressed for us. Nor do we have them do such things for women. If this is a non-Tznius activity, then why are we allowed to let a non-Jew do it for us?”
Many aspects of tznius don’t relate to non jews – e.g you are allowed to look at a non jewish lady whose hair is uncovered. And the nuances – are you against those who say that ladies skirts should be 4 inches below their knees even when that wouldn’t apply with regard to looking at non jews?
These arguments have no sense to them.
it’s kinda funny how not liking the force or ways that some of the chassidish communities have shown up in the news lately makes us anti chassidish and anti torah. Maybe we love chassidim but we legitimately take a different stand on some of these things. Can you accept that? I can’t stand this attitude that I must not really be religious if i can disagree with the way things are being done in KJ or williamsburg or wherever in london this ban is. sheeesh.
Everyone accepts those who disagree respectfully with others views. But not if you bash them for it.
that is so far from true. so unfortunately far from true.
You obviously haven’t read this thread very well. Most people here are from communities where ladies drive so I’m not sure where you are coming from. Our only issue is the way people are attacking those do have this policy.
They didn’t choose to put this story in the news.
No, Belz did something newsworthy by making a new Taliban-type rule. Had it been in place since the model T (or even 20 years ago), no one would have cared.
“apy – agreed, but why do practice they adopt for themselves have to end up in all of our newsstories?”
Good question. Probably better posed to those who run “news sites”.
Had it been in place since the model T (or even 20 years ago), no one would have cared.
Belzer and other Chasidishe women have, as a general rule, not been driving since the advent of the Model T. And the rule not permitting it is over 20 years old. It surely ain’t anything new.
joseph – agreed. which is why i wonder about the sensationalism. i don’t think it only comes from the media, it seems (and i may be wrong) to be part of the presentation as well.
Joe: So why the need for the big announcement? If this is already in place, then there would have been no mention of it.
You think they specially tried to get the media to attack them?
What big announcement? There was none. All that happened was that a tiny number of community members violated the rule. The community school sent a private letter only to the parent body saying the rule would be enforced. Then some anti-religious fellow sent a copy of the letter to a Jewish anti-religious publication which published it, after which the general media picked it up.
how did an anti religious fellow get a copy of a private letter sent privately between members of a private group?
I doubt the answer to that is known but it could have been any number of ways. An employee (the schools don’t only hire frum Jews), one of the folks who violated the rule may have been jilted by the enforcement and supplied the copy or it even may have been a discarded copy someone found.
Sorry Joe, that is not what happened. From Jpost:
In a letter sent out last week, the leading rabbis of the Belz community declared that female drivers fly in the face of “the traditional rules of modesty” expected in the hassidic camp. The letter also stated that beginning in August, children who are driven to school by their mothers may be banned from academic institutions.
The letter claimed that as more mothers begin to drive their children to school, there has been an increase in “resentment among parents of pupils of our institutions.”
If you read the letter, it says that this is a “new” Takanah.
The JPost isn’t a beacon of truth. Especially when they are reporting third-hand news from halfway around the world. The rule has been (very) long standing. This fact isn’t even news to anyone slightly familiar with Belz and other Chasidic communities. The only “new” thing was the need to enforce the longstanding rule. (Hence the notification that it would be enforced with the stated penalty beginning the aforementioned month.)
The JPost isn’t a beacon of truth. Especially when they are reporting third-hand news from halfway around the world. The rule has been (very) long standing. This fact isn’t even news to anyone slightly familiar with Belz and other Chasidic communities. The only “new” thing was the need to enforce the longstanding rule. (Hence the notification that it would be enforced with the stated penalty beginning the aforementioned month.)
If its not in the Yated, its not news
ZD: Funny, you just said something similar in another thread about an article I recommended instead of debating it on its merits…
At least Joseph is telling us why it’s not believable — it’s common knowledge Belze Chasidish women don’t drive.
Unfortuantly on the internet the line between Blogs and News sites can be very blurry and even legitimate news sites many times have a blog area (And this can be an area for abuse)
Many “news” sites are actually blogs with the way editors report what they want, slanting it it the way they see fit via the photos they use or they headlines they write.
There was a scammer who used a blog area of CNN praising his product and then advertised that his product was endorsed by CNN.
You always have to be aware which are more blog than news
ZD,
It seems you should consider your own advice.
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