Tight-fitting clothing and tznius – the elephant in the room

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  • #1335138

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It is true that there are unfortunately some women and girls who wear clothing that is too tight/fitted. But there are two main factors in the fit of an article of clothing: the size of the clothing, and the size of the person wearing it. All too often it is the latter that has changed, and not intentionally. Therefore, by saying that someone is not b’tznius because their clothing is too tight, you are calling them fat. And it’s not nice to call people fat.

    #1335161

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    But what if the clothing is newly bought?

    #1335166

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It was bought in the old size out of habit, most likely.

    #1335206

    yekke2
    Participant

    Denial, more likely.

    So would you call that the elephant in the skirt?

    #1335210

    ChanieE
    Participant

    Hey, who are you calling an elephant?!

    #1335249

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The same applies to some extent, though not nearly as much, when a woman buys cotton or wool clothing and then washes it, or when a teenage girl who thought she had reached her full height goes through a surprise growth spurt.

    #1335257

    The little I know
    Participant

    RebYidd23:

    “Thought police”. Stop it! It’s horrible. I I tell someone (I would only say that to my daughter) their clothing is too tight, I do NOT mean to call them fat. And they would be bright enough to understand exactly what I said. It remains the choice of the listener to interpret the statement differently, and they thus have the option of feeling offended. But it is ludicrous to say that I offended them. That thinking is the PC garbage that afflicts our generation, and I refuse to engage in it just as I refuse to get high on weed, or drunk on liquor.

    A little maturity would do everyone a lot of good.

    #1335275

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Just a reminder that the inyan of tzinius is relevant for BOTH men and women although 99% of the focus seems to be just on women….How we act, how we talk and how we treat others are all a part of tzinius which doesn’t mean to be “modest” so much as to act with propriety and dignity..men are obligated to avoid dress or behavior that attracts inappropriate attention to them or otherwise would lead to inappropriate thoughts and visuals among members of both genders they encounter.
    Chazal bring down that tzinius applies to men’s clothing along with women’s lvush…e.g.

    •In Yoma (35b), Rav Elazar’s chevrah would not permit him to wear a finely-woven bekishe because it was too sheer and his form was visible through the translucent material;
    •In Shabbos (114a), clothes are referred to as, ” the things that honor a person” and chazal bring down that it’s considered shameful for a talmid chacham to wear stained or patched clothing, as such are beneath his dignity (Note: by that standard the lvush worn by kolel yungerleit in many kollels is a massive “tzinius” issue). Likewise a neatly kept beard is fine but its not meant to look like a habitat for endangered species…
    •Also iinShabbos, (113a), we are told that it is unseemly for a person to be overly concerned with fashion, except in the case of special lvush for Shabbos when such a fashion sense is an appropriate way of showing kavod for Shabbos kodesh

    Bottom line: (as the Dems would say) Stop the war on women (at least in relation to clothing and hairstyles)

    #1335276

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    TLIK, this is not PC. You’re trying to get me to be PC and not say stuff that offends you. You’re being like one of those stupid little liberals who think everything is about them and wants free speech as long as it doesn’t offend you, TLIK.

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  YW Moderator-100. Reason: PC
    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  YW Moderator-100. Reason: Macintosh
    #1335283

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah, this particular issue is more relevant for women because women pay a higher price for being overweight. Modern mainstream society views a woman’s weight as almost the single determining factor of her value as a person, and that’s disgusting, but it’s the world we live in.

    #1335296

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    ToRebYidd22

    “Modern society views a woman’s weight as almost the single determining factor of her value as a person”…..

    Perhaps you live in an alternative society…..yes, weight and looks are frequently a factor in how women are viewed… but “the single most important”…not where I live and sorry things have gotten so bad in your misogynistic neighborhood. The quality of her chulent and the sechel of her husband are considerably more important among members of my tzibur

    #1335298

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Maybe not the single determining factor, but a lot more importance is placed on this for a woman than for a man pretty much anywhere. And it’s too much.

    #1335305

    The little I know
    Participant

    RebYidd:

    If I tell someone that their clothing is tight, I mean precisely that. No statement about their weight. They may choose to be offended, but I accept no such responsibility. I am of the opinion that this PC stuff belongs in the garbage.

    Your OP – cut and pasted: “Therefore, by saying that someone is not b’tznius because their clothing is too tight, you are calling them fat.” That is PC garbage. That prompted my comment.

    I am nowhere close to the liberal side at all. I mock it whenever I can. Perhaps our opinions are actually closer than the dialogue in the CR appears.

    #1335315

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Gadol hadorah, what source do you have that interprets that stained clothing on a talmid chacham is a matter of tznius? All classical meforshim understand this to be an issue of kavod hatorah.

    It’s ironic that some frum girls complain tsniyus is stressed for women more than men, and yet many a frum girl wears tops that show collarbone & forearms and skirts that reveal calves, while frum men typically don’t wear shorts, and rarely wear short sleeves or forego wearing a collared shirt in public.

    #1335339

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    TLIK, Mocking things whenever you can is not decent or smart behavior.
    And clothing gets tight when people are too large for their clothing.

    Curiosity, it’s common for frum men to wear see through white shirts. Is that tznius?
    edited

    #1335353

    gavriel613
    Participant

    RebbYid “Curiosity, it’s common for frum men to wear see through white shirts. Is that tznius?”

    See Rambam הלכות דעות · פרק חמישי · הלכה ט:
    “ולא יהא בשרו נראה מתחת מדיו כמו בגדי הפשתן הקלים ביותר שעושים במצרים”

    That would seem to be exactly what you’re talking about, although to be melamed zchus perhaps the Poskim are mechalek based on the opacity of the shirt in question

    #1335347

    gavriel613
    Participant

    Curiosity – there is certainly an inyan of tznius for men. See Rambam Deios 5:6 where this is clear: “צניעות גדולה נוהגים תלמידי חכמים בעצמן לא יתבזו ולא יתגלו ראשן ולא גופן”… Although there it is talking about a talmid chochom, but everyone has halochos of tznius in beis hakisei. (If you meant specifically stained clothing, then I agree, the Rambam there brings the halocho of stained clothing separately in halocho 9, implying it is separate, as you say).

    #1335349

    gavriel613
    Participant

    I don’t think RebYidds main point was that “you are calling them fat”. His main point was that one should be don lekaf zechus. Obviously that doesn’t mean there’s no chiyuv tochocho tactfully. He’s just saying one shouldn’t jump to critical conclusions.

    #1335350

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Curiosity” said it all. Gut gezugt.

    #1335370

    men are obligated to avoid dress or behavior that attracts inappropriate attention to them or otherwise would lead to inappropriate thoughts and visuals among members of both genders they encounter

    Source, please. (The ones you posted appear to deal with kavod.)

    #1335371

    The little I know
    Participant

    RebYidd:

    The Gemora tells us that לצנות is always assur – with the exception of ליצנותא דע”ז. I am saying that the PC craze which has gripped our society is idolatry. It is routinely worshipped. It is worse in universities, media, government offices, and in agencies. When an ideology completely erases morality and a system of higher values, it becomes an idol. Sadly, the tentacles of this monster reach everywhere. It dictates that we look for something offensive as intended while no one possesses the skill of mind reading. And if I feel offended by you, I have the right to take revenge. This is idolatrous, making the ideology its own idol.

    I will mock this and make sure that I always think so lowly of it that I will never be tempted to embrace it for a second. If you do not like my mockery, you are free to ignore it. It is not casual, but clearly intended. Yes, doing so is both decent and smart. Disagree if you like.

    Back to the clothing. It is probably the case that clothing becomes too tight when the person’s size increases. I agree. I might not know if that article of apparel was worn previously or not (I do not keep track). I do refrain from commenting on people’s bodies – for tznius reasons. So if I am commenting on clothing, that’s all I mean. You may compile your Peirush Rashi on every sentence, but that does not make it my intended message, just your own interpretation.

    #1335373

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Rebbyidd, let’s not pretend men go to the shirt emporium and ask the clerk to direct them to the racks with the see-through shirts. It’s just that unfortunately the quality of the textiles of many white shirts isn’t what it needs to be, so when you are wearing white tzitzis with highly contrasting black stripes, they are easily seen through the white shirt material. But what does this have to do with anything?

    #1335426

    mw13
    Participant

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/to-the-uninformed-rebyidd23-is-rebyidd23

    #1335443

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I’m very offended by all the posters who have implied that there is something wrong with gaining weight.

    #1335464

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    TLIK, mocking something as often as you can is a waste of your time. Even if you strongly disagree with something, mocking it whenever you can uses a lot of your time and energy and the benefit you get from it doesn’t justify that. I am strongly opposed to genocide and slavery, but I spend very little of my time mocking them.

    #1335465

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Curiosity, tznius does not depend on intention. Most likely the women whose collarbones are showing simply have large heads that stretched out the neck hole, if that’s how it works.

    #1335468

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Have you ever been to a Chasideshe simcha of one of the “fringe” chassidus where everyone is wearing all Black except that the Rav or one of his gabboim are wearing a white, gold or striped Bekeshe and his Shtreimlach is mad from a totally different fur than those of the others? Do we say these Rabbonim have a “Tzinius problem” by deliberately drawing attention to themselves??

    #1335483

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    not fair – my post was blocked : (

    And it really was supposed to be before MW13’s.

    #1335524

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Rebbeyid
    I find your comment fascinating
    Let’s break it down
    Somebody says a girl’s shirt is too tight
    In order to give the girl the benefit of the doubt you will now make the assumption that originally the shirt was perfect size just now she grew and did not realize that it is perhaps no longer and acceptable shirt
    That is a beautiful way of judging someone favorably how ironic
    How ironic is it then that the outcome of taking someone who to the Casual Observer is doing something improper and by you finding a way of judging them favorably you are now taking someone who to the Casual Observer did nothing wrong because all they did was make a specific factual comment or statement that the shirt in question is unacceptable and now you made them into the person who did something wrong and offensive
    So to sum up you took two people who to an objective Observer person number one did something wrong and person number 2 did nothing wrong
    You figured out a way to negate the wrong that person number one did by slapping person number 2 with a wrongdoing
    That is exactly what is known in the vernacular as
    PC garbage

    #1335589

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    No, kluger, you’re overthinking this. I already think it’s wrong to publicly criticize someone for their clothes anyway. Person number 2 was to be burned at the stake at dawn. Now that person number 2 was insulting rather than criticizing, it’s a lesser offense, just a small fine.

    #1335614

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I suspect tight/see through clothing can be a combination of many factors including:

    . Deliberate decision to wear tight or transparent clothing
    . Poorly manufactured (cheap) clothing that is “threadbare” even when new
    . One gains weight and is not at the point where they wish to purchase new clothing, or perhaps can not
    . Awareness or lack of it (it is possible someone who gained weight or clothes shrunk in dryer is not aware of what they look like from behind)

    In general, it is never a good idea to discuss the way your neighbors husband, wife, son or daughter dresses. That is best left to their husband, wife,father or mother. You can speak with their Rav or Rebbetzin to discuss it with them if you believe it needs to be discussed.

    #1335643

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    What’s wrong with looking at every side of a hypothetical story?

    #1335727

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The elephant in the room is.

    Is it hypothetical, or are we making excuses. That is something that each person must answer for themselves, and ultimately will be held accountable for.

    #1335885

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    One of the first things we teach young men entering the workforce, especially those whose social skills are limited based on not having grown up in gender-mixed school system and living in a heimeshe community, is that you NEVER comment on the looks or appearance of another co-worker, even if the comment is meant as a compliment. Aside from the fact that there are many frivolous lawsuits brought based on totally innocent comments, the workplace policies and guidelines of many employers discourage such comments. Even at home, its best to avoid such commentary since its so easy to frame the comments in a way that is misunderstood or makes the recipient feel uncomfortable.

    #1336321

    Meno
    Participant

    Even at home, its best to avoid such commentary since its so easy to frame the comments in a way that is misunderstood or makes the recipient feel uncomfortable.

    This is excellent advice. I never comment on my wife’s appearance (or give her compliments in general) out of concern that it might make her uncomfortable.

    #1336319

    Curiosity
    Participant

    @gadolhadorah “Especially those whose social skills are limited based on not having grown up in gender-mixed school system and living in a heimeshe community,” … Wow…. How can you so broadly disparage and stereotype an entire community of people in the SAME SENTENCE as talking about being careful not to offend people? I guess you think respect is a one way street.

    #1336407

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    So you don’t think not talking to the opposite gender inhibits one’s skills at talking to the opposite gender?

    #1336849

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Curiosity……sorry but I respectfully disagree and there was no disparagement….I’ve had numerous experiences where frum bochurim who had recently entered the workforce seemed awkward in their social interactions with female work colleagues….its not just handshakes and simple stuff like that….its not a stereotype since the same or other types of awkwardness afflict other groups….for those who have spent much of their lives in a narrow environment with very little interaction with girls/women outside of their immediate family and/or those of other faiths (or even non-frum yidden), there will always be a transitional period where some cultural biases and misunderstandings will arise. Over the longer term, its not an issue as we know from the very large numbers of successful frum individuals in American business. Remember that this discussion evolved from the original point of avoiding comments or inappropriate “looks” regarding the weight or dress of a woman in the workplace….its all part of a normal and gradual process of familiarization , not some dark stereotypes…

    #1336950

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah,

    Even at home, its best to avoid such commentary since its so easy to frame the comments in a way that is misunderstood or makes the recipient feel uncomfortable.

    This is an absolutely terrible piece of marriage advice. It is absolutely essential for each spouse to communicate that the other is dear, cherished, respected, and yes, physically attractive. And understanding is achieved by a miraculous process known as listening and communicating.

    #1337012

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah,

    Curiosity’s take is correct. You wrote “limited social skills”, which is 100% a value statement, and a disparaging one at that, and then tried to walk it back as cultural differences. No can do.

    BTW, the vast majority of inappropriate remarks made in professional workplaces come from people who were educated in public schools and went to co-ed universities. To pass off boorish behavior as somehow a result of a frum upbringing is not only a cheap shot, but wrong.

    #1337024

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    I was in family court this morning to file a motion for a client. A self represented couple was there filing motions for custody of a 12 year old girl. The mother was dressed in see through cotton top that did not reach her pants waistline. The pants had cut slits at the thighs and behind. The father was in an old, but clean black suit with a white shirt and red tie.
    The bailiff came to the mother before the judge entered and offered her a shawl to wrap around her top, the mother refused.
    The judge entered. The couple was the 3rd motion to be heard. When the names were called the judge (female 60s) asked the wife if she thought her dress was appropriate for court, the wife replied ‘it’s summer’
    The judge asked the wife if she’d let her 12 year old appear dressed the same way. The husband said the wife brought the daughter for supervised visitation and daughter was in the hall. Judge had daughter brought into the courtroom, Daughter was wearing a halter top, short shorts and flip flops.
    Judge lectured wife that this might be appropriate for the beach, but not court or city streets.
    Arguments continued for about 20 minutes. Judge awarded custody to the father, saying mother did not comprehend what is acceptable for a 12 year old to wear in public and questioned the mother’s judgment in general.

    #1337056

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Avram
    Again, not walking back a factual statement….many young fum bochurim have difficulties on gender issues when first starting work that are unique to frum kids starting out in an unfamiliar environment…..no one said that they are the predominant source of workplace issues just that they have their own specific issues…of course, the largest percentage of complaints to HR would come from “public school” kids since they probably constitute the vast percentage of new hires…their issues are generally different depending on their backgrounds, locality and family upbringing…your experience is your experience…

    #1337095

    gavriel613
    Participant

    CTLAWYER I assume that wasn’t the judges only reason for awarding custody to the father! It’s not really the judges place to tell a mother how to dress their daughter on “city streets”, I think she should have stopped at telling the mother off for her own dress

    #1337151

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Actually Judicial Discretion permits a judge to express their opinion about how a child is being raised (including dress, language, activities, school, friends, bedtime) especially when a parent is seeking custody.
    I don’t know what other reasons the judge may have had, if any. BUT, if a judge decided that allowing a 12 year old to come to court dressed for the beach is bad parenting, the judge is within her rights.

    Rest assured that before the judge left her chambers to sit on the bench she had access to the full parenting report from the court/family relations social worker and school records, etc.

    #1337199

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Rebbeyid
    I must be missing something I do not see anywhere on the thread that there was public criticism I was assuming that it was a question of one girl perhaps telling her friend you should not be wearing such a thing it is not befitting I don’t see anywhere that there is a talk of public criticism inter-gender criticism I don’t know where all this information is hidden but I cannot find it on the thread in the original post maybe I am missing the first post

    #1337233

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    And I don’t see anywhere there is blame, or judgement, just an opinion about implications.

    #1337284

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Rebbeyid
    “Therefore, by saying that someone is not b’tznius because their clothing is too tight, you are calling them fat. And it’s not nice to call people fat.”
    Seems like judgement to me .
    Just quoting
    You
    Btw . when you say I am overanalyzing the issue. to me that seems like a criticism.
    What time is your auto-da-fe?
    Can I bring snack?

    #1337286

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I said you’re overthinking it. I didn’t mean that as criticism, I meant that as an insult. I take that back now that I realize you don’t like being insulted. However, I still respectfully disagree.
    And I don’t think there is any judgement in what I said before, particularly as I was using it as an indefinite personal pronoun.
    Never scoop a bagel around me.

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  YW Moderator-29 👨‍💻.
    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  👑RebYidd23. Reason: I don't think I can rightfully crown myself king at this point. However, I should still be treated like one
    #1337347

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Rebbeyid
    “you are calling them fat. “””And it’s not nice to call people fat.”
    That too Is not judgement?
    Time to own up
    We all judge others
    And there is nothing wrong with nicely telling a friend that their clothes are too tight
    Anymore than when you tell a friend that what they are saying Is lashon hara.
    Should one Not do that either?
    Maybe the reason they were saying the story gr8 because they did Not realize it was negative. So really when you tell your friend “please stop saying that. Its lashon hara. You are really just calling your friend a stupid person.
    That is so Not nice
    And judgemental too

    #1337313

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To RebYid23
    “Scooping bagels” is per se assur, assuming one knows what you mean by “scooping bagels”…..

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