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YWN Coffee Room » In The News

Ukraine, Israel and the Jews

(18 posts)
  • Started 9 months ago by gavra_at_work
  • Latest reply from mdd

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  1. gavra_at_work
    caution

    If Obama won't back up Ukraine against a clear act of war, after the US signed a treaty to do so to do so in 1994, why in the world would anyone think that Obama would back Israel in case of a war?

    Perhaps Israel should re-orient itself towards other countries that have similar interests in fighting the millitant spread of Islam, such as Russia and China.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  2. zahavasdad
    zahavasoneluckygirl

    Its a bit weird, I sort of have this affinity for the Ukraine as thats where my family comes from. I was thinking maybe I could go there this year and see where my family came from (Obviously not now). I have been following this story more closely.

    Lviv which has been in the news alot, used to be a Major Jewish City

    Posted 9 months ago #
  3. fensterz
    Joseph

    There is nothing Obama, the US or Europe can do against Russia other than rattle about economic sanctions and visa bans. Declaring nuclear war against Russia by marching into Crimea, Ukraine is not realistic.

    And no other country in the world will take Israel's side. Certainly not Russia, but why would you want them anyways? They're the first to stab you in the back, as you now see with Russia violating their signed treaties.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  4. nfgo3
    Member

    Re the opening post: If your facts about the US treaty of 1994, and your assumption about President Obama, are correct (which I doubt, but never mind), then you have asked a reasonable question with an obvious answer: Because no other nation, especially Russia, can be counted on to support Jews like the US. Russia and its predecessor, the Soviet Union, have been allies of various hostile Arab nations since at least 1947. And Russia, going back to the czars, has been an enemy of the Jews throughout its history.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  5. mybrother
    Member

    i think u are correct in your thinking, i can't see obama intervening militarily in a war against israel.
    its time to find new friends :)

    Posted 9 months ago #
  6. benignuman
    The Congenial Na Nach

    I can think of two reasons:

    1) Ukraine is not a US ally.

    2) Russia, while no longer the power it once was it is no pushover and war with Russia would be catastrophic for the United States.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  7. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    Would that be the same Russia that supplies arms to said militant Islam?

    Posted 9 months ago #
  8. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    Israel is very well aware of this and this is precisely why Netanyahu is reaching out to other countries like Russia, France and Germany.

    I think Russia is very astute. Once they are already unpopular because of the noise in Ukraine, they might as well cash in. They haven't been wrong in their games against the world throughout the century. They just don't care as much about being popular.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  9. Avram in MD
    Avram in the CR

    gavra_at_work,

    If Obama won't back up Ukraine against a clear act of war, after the US signed a treaty to do so to do so in 1994

    The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances of December 1994 provided assurances that Ukraine's territory would be respected by the signatories (US, UK, Russia) in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal. In the event that nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine, UN Security Council action is required. Given a territory violation, at most, the treaty could be used as justification for any US or UK actions taken to uphold Ukraine's territorial sovereignty, but as far as I am aware it does not bind any nation to take such actions. It seems pretty clear that Russia has violated this treaty. I would argue that Russia may have violated the treaty even before putting troops in Crimea through the use of natural gas economic blackmail to stop Ukraine's negotiations with the EU.

    You are clearly bothered by U.S. inaction in Ukraine. What would you recommend that the U.S. do that it is not doing now? Threaten nuclear war? Invade Ukraine to repulse the Russian troops?

    why in the world would anyone think that Obama would back Israel in case of a war?

    This may be a fair question to ask, but I think it's weakened when you tie it to the situation in Ukraine, because the U.S. hasn't failed to honor the 1994 treaty.

    Perhaps Israel should re-orient itself towards other countries that have similar interests in fighting the millitant spread of Islam, such as Russia and China.

    Do you think Russia or China would support Israel over Iran if G-d forbid there was war?

    Posted 9 months ago #
  10. yytz
    Member

    Israel should try to be as self-reliant as it can, producing its own weapons, creating a big enough military to win any war on its own, etc. As it is now Israel relies to a large degree on American imports of arms, which are provided for free in exchange for American imperialistic meddling. It would be better to be more independent, but realistically Israel will cultivate relationships with whatever major powers it can. China and Russia will probably never be major allies, but technically anything's possible.

    Jews are at risk in Ukraine, which hopefully the American intervention there will help improve.

    Hopefully things will settle down soon. It would be a pity if Jewish life there suffers, or if Jewish tourism, such as Uman on Rosh HaShana or visiting the graves of other tzaddikim, must be stopped or reduced.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  11. gavra_at_work
    caution

    Avram in MD: My conclusion is similar to that of yytz, rather than those you draw. I certainly have no interest in the US getting involved in a shooting war, and don't think the US would do so for Israel either (which is my point).

    For Russia, boycotts of consoumer goods (such as toilet paper, as suggested by Bloomberg) will have a much stronger impact.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  12. charliehall
    Member

    Sorry, but I have no interest in supporting a regime whose ruling coalition includes an openly anti-Semitic political party the likes of which haven't had any power anywhere in Europe since World War II. This "Svoboda" party needs to be put out of business.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  13. akuperma
    Member

    Neither side is especially anti-semitic, and there has been a tremendous growth of Yiddishkeit in both Ukraine and Russia since the 1991 (when the Soviet Union collapsed). Arguments can be made both ways whether a Ukraine that is pro-EU or pro-Russia is "good for the Jews" - which probably means we should try to be very neutral and encourage a peaceful resolution of the matter.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  14. crazybrit
    This is a failed attempt at the longest subtitle in The Yeshiva World Coffee Room. However, as the old adage goes, "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again". I'm on my 5th or 6th try. It does keep growing. I wonder if this is still a failed attempt! But as they say, "Try and fail, and try and fail but never fail to try again!"

    Israel has backstabbing friends like the US and Uk, however Klal yisroel has the Ribono Shel Oilom.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  15. nfgo3
    Member

    I like the "conservative" position I have heard on right-wing talk radio: The US has no interest in Ukraine, we therefore should not get involved, and Obama is too weak. This only begs the question of how strong do you have to be to not get involved.

    The alternative is to do for Ukraine what President Bush did for the US after 9/11: Invade Iraq.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  16. akuperma
    Member

    nfgo3 - beyond the need to to honor our treaty guaranteeing Ukraine's borders, the US has no interest. In fact, if Ukraine got rid of the pro-Russian provinces, it might be better off. The boundaries are very artificial.

    As Jews we have less interest to be involved given the history of Ukranian nationalism, beyond hoping for peace in the region.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  17. mdd
    Member

    Fensterz, Russia did not stab anybody in the back. you have to be well familiar with the events there to have an opinion.
    Akuperma, even though you usually know pretty well what's going on in the world(though I totally disagree with your shittos about Israel), this time you are off. It is not only the history of Ukrainian nationalism, it is the fact that there are neo-Nazis in the new government there now.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  18. mdd
    Member

    Charliehall,+1.

    Posted 9 months ago #

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