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I know its either December 4th or 5th but I am not sure which one
Its the 5th.
GOQ: how does it work? It goes by when the next year is goyish leap year?
This question is ONLY for those in the exile since we have been saying since the 7th of heshvan tan tul umater
PBA: It’s 60 days after the Tekufa, which in theory moves back one day every 4 years. The leap year in the Gregorian Calendar takes care of that for us so that it’s the same day almost every year. But yes, it is December 5th in the year before a leap year.
To expound on Sam2’s correct explanation, each tekufa occurs 365 days and 6 hours after the same one last year. In the year of a civil leap year (such as 2008), Tekufas Tishrei is on October 7th at 3:00 am.
The next year (2009) it is on October 7th at 9:00 am.
The next year (2010) it is on October 7th at 3:00 pm.
The year before the next leap year (2011) it is on October 7th at 9:00 pm.
If next year (2012) would have 365 days, it would be October 8th at 3:00 am, but since it is a leap year, it goes back to October 7th at 3:00 am, just like 4 years previously.
Therefore, 60 days from the tekufa is always December 4th, at either 3:00 am, 9:00 am, 3:00 pm, or 9:00 pm, respectively. But since the Jewish day starts in the evening, December 4th at 9:00 pm is considered the following day, December 5th. So in the year before a leap year, we (i.e. those of us whose exile is in ??? ????, as opposed to those whose exile is being lived in ??? ?????) start saying ??? ?? ???? on December 5th.
(We are using civil dates for convenience, because both the tekufa and the Gregorian calendar are solar based. This has nothing to do with the fact that the legal day starts at 12:00 midnight.)
To take the calculation further, this only works for dates between 1900 and 2099. But since the gregorian calendar skips a leap year in 3 out of every 400 years, that means that in the 1800’s they would start on December 3rd or 4th, and after 2100 it will (theoretically) be either December 5th or 6th.
I am not an expert in this, but I know that Sam2 is correct.
However, every one hundred years the date moves forward by one day. Every four hundred years, the date does NOT move by one day. So the date will move three times every four hundred years.
When I was young, the siddurim said Dec. 3/Dec. 4, and since then it has moved up a day to Dec.5/6.
The obvious problematical issue of a gradual change in the date (in the time of Shmuel, the date was in mid-late November)is a topic for another discussion.
Living in Eretz Yisrael, I rarely think about it.
Tal Umatar? When ‘old man’ winter arrives!
Ironically,we in folks should be saying the same time as in Israel.
Talk Unstated is intended for local conditions and in Bavel they need the rain in December so it was changed for them. The Rosh, to to avail, argued that since France and Germany needed the rain the same time as Israel
w,the start date should be changed back. So,here we are praying that Iran and iraehave good crops.
I will IY”H be going to Eretz Yisroel this fall, so that I can have the Zechus to visit any solders who Chas v’Sholom are still sick then, & hence show solidarity to Am Yisroel.
During my stay in Eretz Yisroel, will come marCheshvan 7th, at which time I Shall commence reciting vSen Tal uMotor in Borech Oleini, and once I commence, I do not cease until Mincha Erev Pesach, and hence will continue reciting vSein Tal uMotor after marCheshvon 7th, even upon my return to Chutz loOretz between marCheshvon 7th & December 4th
Interesting. Why would you not follow the minhag hamakom when you return?
147, did you ask a shaila about that? When I was in America during aveilut and davened, I was told to daven as the Americans do – hence I had to stick with v’tain bracha, even though I had already switched in Israel before I left.
Mod 42
That’s an interesting point. My opinion is that since the tefillah is for Eretz Yisrael, once someone starts saying it, it is improper to stop.
I know a Rav who was flying back to the States the night of 7 Heshvan and purposely did not daven maariv until the plane took off. He did not want to start saying tal u’matar and then get into the safek of whether to stop once he got to the States. He felt he could not daven maariv here and NOT say tal u’matar, after all, the gabbai announces it before shmoneh esreh.
It can be confusing.If someone does not want to stop once he started,and goes to chu”l, he says it as a yachid (my opinion), but if he is a shliach tzibbur in chu”l, there is no doubt he must follow the minhag hamakom.
I went home for a chasuna when I was learning in Israel, and said it like an American for the duration of my visit
BUMP
Motzai Shabbos.
I am not arguing with ravshalom above
Just rewording it since it is not quite accurate. (though in practice the outcome is the same).
For counting the days of the tekufa we dont count “meis leis” and even if davening maariv before 1440 hours (60 x 24) after the tekufa, vesein tal umatar is still recited
“Therefore, 60 days from the tekufa is always December 4th, at either 3:00 am, 9:00 am, 3:00 pm, or 9:00 pm, respectively. But since the Jewish day starts in the evening, December 4th at 9:00 pm is considered the following day, December 5th.”
For counting Sixty days the time doesnt matter. 60 days after October 7th is December 5th regardless of what time the Tekufa took place. Thus on most years at the start of “halachic Dec 5th” i.e. after sunset on Dec 4th we start saying vesein tal umatar on day # 60.
EXCEPT that the year before a leap year (is civil years 2011,2015, 2019) when the tekufa is on OCtober 7th at 9:00 PM this is “halachic October 8th” So the tekufa does not occur on October 7th in those years, halachicly it is October 8th (though your calendar still says October 7th for 3 more hours). Sixty days after October 8th is December 6th, after sunset on Dec 5th (even before 9:00 PM) we say vesein tal umatar.
(interestingly, Once in 28 years evening of December 5th is Friday night the year before a leap year and we satrt saying it on the 6th)
After civil year 2100, as happened last after civil year 1900, the civil date of the switch to vsein tal umatar for the next hundred years will change.
(Am I starting to sound like 147?)
Mashiv haruach is for Eretz Yisroel, tain tal umattar is for your locality. If an American visits Israel prior to December, wouldn’t he have to have in mind that he is saying tal umattar for Israel, not the US? And, if he returned to US prior to December 4, why would he have to continue saying it since he doesn’t want rain yet in US?
Does anyone remember when we start this year in chu”l?
Sunday night
I wouldn’t know – I live in EY, Boruch Hashem!
Is it different every year? Isn’t it December 4rth?
Im pretty sure the rabbi said tonight.
Tonight
Maariv December 4th (tonight)
Good thing you all reminded me. Thanks.
lol. Coincidentally, you just happened to post tonight. What hashkacha! And now everyone else will remember too.
Not the same every year LU.
Almost but not exactly…
Our calendar is very complicated.
And everything has to be calculated very precisely.
Would be great if someone would come forward and explain the variations in the calculation for v’sein tal u’matar.
(Sorry but I can’t.)
“After civil year 2100, as happened last after civil year 1900, the civil date of the switch to vsein tal umatar for the next hundred years will change.”
What’s gonna happen with all the siddurim that say Dec. 4?
They’ll just update the app
It’s 60 days after the autumnal equinox. Which currently works out December 4th, or 5th in the year before a civil leap year. Whoever’s around in December 2103 will have to update that.
Meno & Geordie are saying two different things. Who is right? Has anyone checked Artscroll?
“Meno & Geordie are saying two different things.”
I didn’t say anything. Artscroll says like Geordie said. Joseph pointed out that in the year 2100 the secular date on which we normally start saying it will change, so I was just asking what will happen to all the siddurim that say to start on the 4th. It was kind of a joke, that’s why the Mod responded with a joke.
Would be great if someone would come forward and explain the variations in the calculation for v’sein tal u’matar.
See Rav Moshe’s explanation.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=920&st=&pgnum=33
Meno and I make a great team!
Meno – sorry, I didn’t realize it was Joseph’s comment.
What is going to change in 2100?
I should hope Mashiach will be here by then, so no one will be using the english dates anyhow.
If Moshiach hasn’t come by then the dates will move to December 5th/December 6th; it has to do with century years not being a secular leap year.
My point was that we won’t call it December 5th.
LU
why invent a new solar calendar when Moshiach comes? We have a perfectly good one that we rely on now for Vesein Tal umatar and Birchos hachama why do you think when Moshiach comes we will change it?
OF course if in Eretz Yisroel there is no need for the solar calendar (at least for Vesein tal umatar). But I assume those still in chutz learetz will continue to use December 4/5 5/6 6/7 etc depending on the century long after Moshiach is here
The current calendar isn’t a perfectly good one. I don’t know all the calculations, but Bircas Hachamo is a real problem. There are two calculations for the tekufah (Shmuel and Rav Adda), and the one which is used for calculating leap years is not the same as is used for bircas hachamo. Hence, birkas hachamo next time, 8 April 2037 is AFTER Pesach, even though it is the day of the tekufa, and pesach should be before the tekufa. Basically, the secular calendar is sliding forward slowly, by 3 days every 400 years.
LU- why? why should it be any different than using the Persian names for months after galus bavel/paras ended- you know, Nissan, Iyar etc. before that they were referred to as 1st month, 2nd month to commemorate yetzias mitzrayim, but alternative names existed- like chodesh Ziv. Those names gave way to Nissan, Iyar davka to remember the galus, or salvation from. So if you follow that line of thinking, we will keep the names for the months after this galus ends, so Nissan will be April, etc.
By the way, where do the names of the months derive from- Latin? The days of the week come from Greek/Roman gods or planetary objects that were worshiped by pagans- like Saturn’s day, Thor’s day, Sun’s day, Moon’s day..is it the same for the months?
Geordie613: You stated “and the one which is used for calculating leap years”. Are you referring to the secular leap year or the halachic leap year?
As for Pesach occurring before Tekufas Nissan please see Rabbi Dovid Heber’s article on the Star-K website (specifically footnote 16). I know that the moderator allows the links for hebrewbooks.org, I don’t know if they will allow the direct link to Rabbi Heber’s article. It originally appeared in the Winter 2008 edition of Kashrus Kurrents.
iacisrmma, Halachic leap years. (Secular leap years were devised by Pope Gregory – hence the Gregorian Calendar. Gregory was once asked why they (the Catholics) don’t just adopt the Jewish calendar which is known to be in sync with both the sun and the moon. His famous reply “Better to be wrong with the sun than right with the Jews”.)
I haven’t seen Rabbi Heber’s article, but in very short; Shmuel’s tekufa is based on a more simple calculation, which is inaccurate, but is still used to calculate only birkas hachama. R’ Adda’s tekufa is more complex and therefore more accurate, and therefore used to add months to a Jewish leap year. They both probably started off at the same point, but are now weeks apart.
“Basically, the secular calendar is sliding forward slowly, by 3 days every 400 year”
This has been mentioned previously.
In 400 years the date for vesein tal umatar will be Dec 7/8 in 4000 years IT will be in January (I’m rounding). given enough time We will start saying vesein tal umatar after PEsach. now of course Tekufas Rav Ada isnt perfect either and PEsach is slowly sliding forward as well (this received alot of attention a few years back when the first day of chanukah occurred on November 28 (Thanksgiving) which wont happen again for some 70,000 years until chanukah passes through January, February, MArch etc until it occurs in November again ( note: it will occur on Nov 28 a few more times until 2146 which will be the last time for over 75000 years but none of those times are a thursday). however given that Tekufas Shmuel is less accurate it is sliding forward at a faster rate 3 days in 400 years (as mentioned) while Tekufas Rav Ada slides forward approximately 1 day in 240 years.
In both cases chazal sacrificed accuracy for simplicity and Long before it poses any real problems we will have a sanhedrin to fix it. (OR reinstitute a calendar al pi reiyah)
two more points:
1) To see calendar drift we dont need to project to the future. The Tekufas Tishrei according to Tekufas Shmuel is on October 7/8. The actual equinox this year was on September 22 15 days earlier. In other words we say Vesein Tal umatar 15 days less than in the times of Shmuel. And every 400 years we will be saying it 3 days less
2) It just occured to me that Vesein tal umatar in chutz learetz isnt linked to any pronouncement by beis din. In other words. Im not sure it will change when Moshiach comes. The halacha is 60 days after the tekufah. For which we use Tekufas Shmuel. Will we change to using the astronomicla tekufa? or something else? IT sems strange to think in thousands of years those in chu”l will start Vesin Tal umatar based on the inaccurate tekufa . But why would it change? and is there a source that says so?
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