When Parents Don’t Support a Shidduch…

Home Coffeeroom Shidduchim When Parents Don’t Support a Shidduch…

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  • #589711

    smarty12
    Member

    What do you do when parents oppose a shidduch because it is not the ideal perfect person they envisioned for their child… even though their son/daughter feel strongly that the person they are dating is truly a suitable partner in life??

  • #991585

    moish01
    Member

    are you sure you want to ask this? i can just imagine the back and forth that will go on here…

  • #991586

    yros
    Member

    as a child, i think the parents should have the power to object the shidduch but they should think about it very much but they should have in mind that the child is the one going home with the one after the wedding not the parents!!! However there is no clear cut answer and each should decide for his own

    *yros*

  • #991587

    anonymisss
    Participant

    You speak to someone who knows you, your situation, your background, and your parents, whom you trust to guide you in a smart way. The cr’s an awesome place, but not for that.

    ~a~

  • #991588

    hi100
    Member

    i think it’s crazy that parents turn down girls/boys because they hear that the girl/boy is not pretty or handsome. it’s crazy because the parent is not getting marryed it’s the kid, and everyone has a different definition of pretty/handsome. just let the kid go out and see if he/she is attracted to that person! i think many good shidduchim are being prevented because of this.

  • #991589

    what are u discussing here hashkofos? loooks? learning? what is the issue that he does or does not have?

  • #991590

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Ultimately, who you marry has to be YOUR decision. No one lives in your marriage except for you.

    What I would do is sit down with your parents and ask them what they object to. Is it his religious level? Are there things they see objectively that you don’t?

    I’ve had many friends go through this – mainly because what their parents wanted for their kids was not what their child actually wanted (mainly hashkafically, but sometimes education or otherthings). If you choose to go ahead with a match that your parents don’t approve of, you should be aware of a potential rift that could come between you. Sometimes, its just a temporary chill. Sometimes, these things last longer.

    My advice is OPEN DIALOGUE with your parents and then make your own decision. You can consult other people you trust, but its important for YOU to make the right decision for yourself.

  • #991591

    Who is “you” that the question is asking about? the parents? the child? relatives? or stam a bystander? each one should do something different.

    Assuming its the child, you should marry who you feel is correct. Perhaps in this case think it over twice. If you are sure, go ahead, but don’t expect your parents to support you.

    Good luck

  • #991592

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    what stage of the game are we talking about here?

    If a shidduch has gone a long way, the girl/boy is the one making the ultimate decision. However, to begin with, you should definitely be listening to your parents. They have more life experience, may pick up on things you wouldn’t think of, know what questions to ask etc. A person can be in shidduchim for years and still benefit from their parents’ guidance.

    But as always- there are always those exceptions to the rule. I have a few acquaintances where parents and child were looking for very different things and it made shidduchim very difficult. In the end, the person they each married was something in between what they were looking for and what their parents had in mind.

  • #991593

    seeallsides
    Member

    You can’t judge all cases – BUT –

    Your parents are your absolute best friends and want only your best and they’ve seen a lot more than you have – so don’t be foolish and ignore their wishes – THEY KNOW!!!!

    try to communicate your wishes – they will listen – but you may not always agree – and i would worry seriously if they disagreed totally!

  • #991594

    oomis
    Member

    MOST of the time, parents want what is best (as they see it) for their children. Sometimes, what they want is what is really best for themselves (yichus, gorgeous size 2 girl, money, gantze talmid chochom, etc.) but do not consider what is really what their child needs. The parents who want only a full-time learner for their daughter, may not be considering that the daughter really deep down does not want to be a kollel wife, even if that IS the way of her community. But, I think, kids should not dismiss their parents’ opinions out of hand, because (as was pointed out), we are a little more experienced in life in general. We know that what you absolutely are dying for when you are in your late teens to early 20s, may not be right for you a few years down the line.

    Sometimes parents are wrong. They are human, and are subject to the same prejudices as anyone. They make mistakes of judgment,and sometimes cannot see what you see in the other person. My friend’s parents were very much against their daughter’s shidduch at first, for some very solid and valid reasons. But the girl saw something in him that they (and I) did not, and they reluctantly gave their blessing, because they did see how devoted he was to her and she to him. B”H, not only was their marriage a bracha, producing three wonderful children and a bayis n’eman b’Yisroel, but the husband is mamesh a pillar of his community, beloved by all who know him, a tremendous baal chessed and baal tzedaka, learned, as well as a financially successful man. Had her parents prevented this shidduch, who knows what his or even her derech in life might have been?

    Not everyone is so fortunate. There are shidduchum that are truly unsuitable, and children should at least listen with an open mind to their parents’ objections. Come to think of it, open-mindedness is a good idea for all parties concerned. Maybe they have a point, maybe not. It should at least be heard and considered carefully. The younger the couple, the more seriously I think they need to respect their parents’ opinion. Immaturity is what it is because people are immature… When a young woman is already older, I think she needs to start listening to herself, and not to mommy and daddy as much. we all have to grow up and take responsibility for ourselves at some point.

  • #991595

    m123
    Member

    It is wrong for parents to disuade their son/daughter from marrying someone because of wealth, yichus etc. If a child is dating someone that they feel is suitable for them in terms of hashkafos and personality the child should be able to make the decision. The child is the one that will be living with his/her spouse in the future. If a parent wants to make sure that their child marries someone that is “good enough for them” (or the family is good enough for them), they should do their research before things get serious!!!!

  • #991596

    Nobody
    Member

    All parents envisage a certain type of partner as suitable for their child. Not always is this what the child envisages for themselves! Sometimes a child gets smitten by someone and it is extremley difficult to see clearly behind the outer to the inner. Sometimes it works the other way round – parents see a ‘dream’ partner who in reality is not suited to the child but is only suited in their own dream world

    One question I do have is whether the person in question who is dating is dating with or without the knowledge and approval of their parents.

    Smarty12 there are many questions that lie behind your original question but what I would suggest is all parties sit down with someone who is respected by both the person who is dating and the parents to discuss this logically and without rowing.

  • #991597

    212
    Participant

    Please explain what you mean “it is not the ideal perfect person they envisioned for their child” is it that the parents don’t agree with the hashkafos or frumness or is it something like looks or family backround??? This makes a very big difference when discussing this topic!

  • #991598

    mepal
    Member

    A parent might envision their child marriying a certain kind of person. It can be certain looks, hashkafah, yichus, frumness and many others. It depends on each individual case. Not necesarily is that the right person for the child to marry.

  • #991599

    berliner
    Participant

    I know of a case where the parents were adamantly opposed to the shidduch that their child wanted. The parents tried to persuade the child not to go ahead with the shidduch. When the parents saw that the child was totally committed and would not back down, the father went with the child to Rav Chaim Kanievsky and asked Rav Chaim for his eitzah. Rav Chaim gave his eitzah (to let the child do what he felt was right – even though to the average JOE it would have seemed perfectly reasonable to agree with the parents) and the parents went along with the child’s wish……….

    and they happily ever after!

  • #991600

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Please explain what you mean “it is not the ideal perfect person they envisioned for their child” is it that the parents don’t agree with the hashkafos or frumness or is it something like looks or family backround??? This makes a very big difference when discussing this topic!

    Honestly, I don’t think it matters what the reason is. The child has to make decisions about their own life, independant of what their parents want for them. Granted, I do think the child should at the very least have an open dialogue with their parents and really listen, but the child has to make their own decision and live by it.

    I know a woman who says she was forced into a marriage. She wasn’t sure before she got married, and she definitely had pressure. She thought it was wrong, but listened to everyone else. That was still her CHOICE though. She chose to go through with a marriage she didn’t think would work and got divorced within the first year. I had a discussion with my mother on whether that was bad mazal on her part or a decision. My mother thinks its bad mazal, but I disagree. She made the easier choice – she was worried about being thrown out of her family if she didn’t marry this guy. She didn’t have to marry him – no rabbi in the world would perform a ceremony for someone forced. She CHOSE to go through with it and no one bears the blame for her failed marriage but her (and her ex-husband). Did others put her in a tough position? Yes. Did they enable a situation where it was hard for her to say no? Absolutely. But it was her choice.

  • #991601

    beacon
    Participant

    smarty, I would ask a rav.

  • #991602

    oomis
    Member

    Many women feel coerced into marriage by their parents, particularly if they feel a better shidduch will never come along. Honestly, I feel sorry for the partner who is being “Settled for.” That person deserves better. Even if a gun is not being put to the head of the one who is coerced, there are all types of ways of manipulating someone into doing something that you want them to do. Guilt is a powerful tool.

  • #991603

    aggadah99
    Participant

    Sometimes a parent can find him/herself in the position of having what he feels are valid reasons to oppose the shidduch, yet keeping quiet since the reasons don’t always have bearing on the actual suitability. For example, the parent may feel that a girl suggested for their son is too young/ doesn’t seem mature enough to get married. In addition her parents live in the US whilst the boys parents live in EY and want their son to live there and are afraid that due to the girl’s youth and closeness to her family she will want to live near her own family. Parent is entitled to feel that way, but does this entitle him to jeopardize what may be a good shidduch?

  • #991604

    oomis
    Member

    Aggadah99 poses a very valid question. I know as a parent that I would be devastated if my children married someone who lived far away. I do not have the financial resources to go back and forth on visits, even within the US, and I would be heartbroken to have granchildren whom I could not see regularly. My machetonim are in that boat with their oldest son out of town, and they now have two beautiful aineklach whom they very rarely see. Don’t suggest the phone/video thing, because the children will not do it. It hurts me on their behalf to see that they are missing so many precious moments, and so are the grandchildren.

  • #991605

    lkwdfellow
    Member

    Of course, parents want what’s best for their children. But….. they also have “negius”….. So, the only answer is to present a Sheilah to Da’as Torah. In a case like this – it has to be someone who both the parents & the child respect.

  • #991606

    anonymrs
    Participant

    if a parent feels that their child is old enough and mature enough to get married, wouldnt it follow that their child is old enough and mature enough to pick a suitable spouse? i can understand that there may be objections which come up over time which may not have been present or known about at the time that the shidduch first came about.

    there is nothing wrong with discussing opposition or anything else, but ultimately the choice should be up to the person getting married. there are times when intervention is needed, but that is NOT the majority of the time.

  • #991607

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Anonymrs, I’m with you 100%. I never understood that…

  • #991608

    oomis
    Member

    A child may be mature enough to get married, and it should be his or her choice, BUT, as all parents know, sometimes when a younger person is eager to get married, he doesn’t always see the bigger picture. Sometimes the IDEA of getting married,especially if all of oen’s friends are busy getting engaged also, is more appealing than actually doing so. Many girls feel pressured into getting married before they really know what they want out of life. They have been structured into thinking along certain lines, especially in seminary, and when they see what real life entails, they are shocked. Sometimes a parent sees something that is not evident to the shadchan or even to the boy or girl involved. It might be something as subtle as noticing something about the family when they meet, or as blatant as a real chisaron in the boy or girl.

    If the objection is because “the other side” is not sufficiently wealthy or yichusdig to suit them, then I hope the child does not allow that to interere.

  • #991609

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Oomis, there is a difference between a parent offering guidance and a parent shooting down a shidduch. Parents should offer guidance; when their children make a decision though, the parents should respect that, even if they think its wrong.

  • #991610

    i know this is a little off-topic, but oomis raised a point that I am curious about. why is there that pressure to get married? just because some girls from seminary are getting married, why should there be a pressure on the rest? it does not mean that those still unmarried are “less of a catch” but rather that they have not found the right one for them. why do we do this to our children to force them to marry when they are not ready? is it for our own selfishness?

  • #991611

    tzippi
    Member

    To havesomeseichel: I didn’t get an answer from anyone when I posed this on another thread. But isn’t it interesting how the mindset in the most heimish of circles has gone from, marry them off young, before they have time to be corrupted by outside mores (careers, “being ready”) and let them grow up together, to what I’m seeing on this and other boards? Personally, I have my own approach and it’s not black and white. But for those whom things always have been b/w, how are they adjusting to this incredibly dramatic shift in thought?

  • #991613

    mepal
    Member

    seichel, I believe that there is a pressure to get married ASAP since the girl and the parents are afraid the girl may end up single at <gasp> twenty three. Because of this whole ‘crisis’ (growing number of older singles) girls feel a need to ‘just get married’ lest they remain an unfortunate, unmarried single girl of 23+. I’ve heard of too many divorce stories that happened since the girl was ‘forced’ into the marriage because of this pressure.

    I do not believe in girls getting married straight after seminary. I feel that a girl should first get some degree (or begin working towards one) and some experience in the ‘real world’ before diving into marriage.

    But I do think the above causes pressure in others to try to marry as soon as they can.

  • #991614

    oomis
    Member

    “Oomis, there is a difference between a parent offering guidance and a parent shooting down a shidduch. Parents should offer guidance; when their children make a decision though, the parents should respect that, even if they think its wrong”

    We are in agreement here. However, what if the parents see something the child cannot see or refuses to see. My close friends were very much opposed to their daughter’s shidduch. They saw the boy as very controlling. The girl had stars in her eyes, and would not listen, and they let her marry the boy che chose. Several children later, she is in an unhappy marriage to a control freak, they live out of town and barely see the parents, who for a number of legitimate reasons are unable to travel to see them, and she is not going to do anything about it becaue, “he is a good father, at least.”

    To answer the question of pressure on the girls, sometimes that pressure is simply the desire to fit in and be a part of whatever is going on witht he rest of their friends. All the girls are getting married – she wants to get married, too.

    The truth is, many girls abandon their single friends, even before the wedding takes place, because they are now a couple with “couple” things to do, and the single friends are really not part of that scene. It takes very special sensitivity to maintain relationships with friends who are not in a couples situation. I had a friend who complained bitterly about being excluded from events when her former friends got married. No one ever called her anymore or responded to her calls. When I got married, I made a special point of inviting her for Shabbosim, trying to get together for a lunch, calling her and leaving messages. Guess who never responded to my attempts to keep the friendship alive?

    Parents want the best for their children, though there is sometimes a difference of opinion as to what constitutes what is “best.” I think that kids should take their parents’ words to heart and at least give some thought to their objections. If there is a validity to what they are saying, they should think twice about the shidduch. But if not, and if they are not immature and unrealistic, they should follow their heart.

  • #991616

    artchill
    Participant

    Oomis you are 100% correct in situations of middos, the parents should definitely press the issue with their child. In the excitement of dating for short periods of time (which is de rigeur in the haimishe system) a bad personlity could be overlooked by the girl/boy. Parents should definitely raise their concern.

    The other “essential” information like sizes etc. are NONE of the parents business. He/she is marrying the person , NOT the parents and family.

    Here is my 100% brutally honest assessment, albeit controversial opinion:

    The root cause of the pressure to rush into shidduchim like a chicken without a head is the advertised “Shidduch Crisis”. The only winners thus far in the whole “Shidduch Crisis” mess are the shadchanim who can now push their damaged goods onto unsuspecting girls with a threat of becoming a “Shidduch Crisis” statistic. Hence, the girls settle on the most basic requirements that make a Bayis Ne’eman B’Yisroel.

    The point is of a shidduch is to build an everlasting home, not a yearlong trial marriage. By ignoring very obvious red lights and air raid sirens, people are making a horrific mistake. Stay calm and realize that the only way to establish a Jewish home, is with the involvement of Hashem. Have bitachon, but you must do hishtadlus and check IMPORTANT things out carefully.

    Best of luck!

  • #991617

    chaverim
    Member

    tzippi, do you seriously believe online discussion boards anywhere near represent the voice of klal yisroel, do you? In fact, the opinion of marry young was and still is the mindset of those steeped in Torah. The only thing is, people from that mindset are not usually found in online discussion boards.

  • #991618

    chaverim:

    “In fact, the opinion of marry young was and still is the mindset of those steeped in Torah.”

    what is it that makes marrying young=being steeped in torah? I fail to see the correlation between the two. there are many people who marry young and are not “torahdik” and there are those who dont marry young who are.

  • #991619

    oomis, please understand the perspective of your single friend. She wants her friends back and at the same time does not want to be a “nebech case” that everyone should invite over. she probably does not want to come for shabbos as that will emphasize her single-ness. she might want to do the type of things that you two did together before you were married as that, to her, shows the friendship of old. She might think, however wrongly, that your desire to be with her is to have a “chessed case”. you said that you tried calling and making plans ect and she didnt respond. maybe she just was too hurt by all the other former friends.

  • #991620

    anonymouslysecret
    Participant

    For all those people who are saying that parents know best… I truly think you are either: a)naiive b)a parent who is in conflict with their children or c)in complete denial…

    I know that for myself and for many of my friends who have gone more to the ‘right’ of our families and wish to raise our future children in ways very different than what we grew up with, the balance between respecting parents’ opinions in important matters (such as shidduchim) and standing up to what we believe in is not such a simple one…

    My parents tell me all the time: “We know what’s best for you… We’ve lived longer than you… We have more life experience than you have… We are your parents… We know you…” In my head I am always thinking… “You WANT what’s best for me… that doesn’t necessarily mean you KNOW what’s best… Yes, You have lived longer and have more life experiences… but you never had my life experiences… you never met the people I met… You didn’t have the same influences as me… and Yes, you are my parents… and I love you so much… but I’m sorry, there are large parts of me that you don’t know… and cannot understand…”

    And this is not just a single incident… I know many many girls who are struggling with the same thing…

  • #991621

    Nobody
    Member

    Whoa, you appear to be one very angry young lady.

    I will not draw on your actual case as it would be wrong to comment on what you say about your parents (a) not knowing you and (b) not knowing your parents and finally (c) not being able to verify both sides of this argument.

    I am not naiive or in conflict with my kids or in denial. I am a lot older than you so I suppose you’ll write off my opinions as dated and useless.

    You comment that your parents have never had your lifes’ experiences. Sorry but at your age you have not had any life experiences. All you have had until now is childhood and teenage years.

    You are at a vulnerable and impressionable age and this is where maturity of age comes into the equation. Older folk see beyond what you are seeing right now. For example; You see the family car as old, cranky and an embarrasment to be seen in or drive. We see the car as a means of getting to A – Z quickly and comfortably. We own it and can afford it. You don’t and can’t!

    There is nothing wrong with listening to what your parents have to say without interpreting it negatively – you won’t get anywhere with that attitude and it’s childish. Cildren feel when they reach a certain age it allows them to overide anything their parents may have to say on any matter.

    Fact: No parent will force a child into a marriage they say is perfect for them and that the child does not want.

    Fact: Most parents will try to draw from the child’s form of education, school, sem/yeshiva, chinuch in the home, hashkofa etc to make some form of conclusion as to what MAY (note the word may, which means possibly not definately) be suited to their child in regards to a shidduch.

    That all said, along the way there may well be arguments such as: I want a learner for minimum ten years (and who will fund this??) or I want a clean shaven, kippa sruga guy / a girl who not cover her hair (Oi Vey, but our family all wear shtreimels/hats on the shetel).

    There are many reasons as to why parents feel a shidduch is unsuitable. So act like an adult, and talk to them, explain the direction you wish to move in do not discuss these things with your friends who are as young and impressionable and opinionated as you.

  • #991622

    jphone
    Member

    “When Parents Don’t Support a Shidduch…”

    I know this is extreme, but if you are 100% certain that your choice of a shidduch is correct (through objectively looking at the situation, discussing with rabbeim, teachers or whoever it is you turn to in life), then I say go ahead with the shidduch, but be prepared to be without parental support. I use the word support with all its connotations.

    Be open and honest with the other side of the shidduch and let them know how your parents feel. It is not fair (and is likely against halacha, but obviously not issuing a psak here) to the other side and quite dishonest to allow them to enter into a shidduch not knowing this basic fact.

  • #991623

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Nobody, age does not always mean life experience. I had more life experience at 16 than many adults just because of what life threw my way. Also, growing up the last 15 years or so is VERY different from what it was when our parents were growing up. When I was in high school (almost 15 years ago!!!) I told my mother about what was going on with drugs and all sorts of other things. She was shocked at many of the things going on and she went to PUBLIC SCHOOL IN THE 1960s. Life is different nowadays and parents don’t have all the answers.

    What AS said “You WANT what’s best for me… that doesn’t necessarily mean you KNOW what’s best…” I think is a very true statement. Parents generally want the best for their kids and assume they know what it is.

    Many parents think they know better; some do. Ultimately, if you are old enough to get married, you are old enough to choose who to marry. For better or worse – no one is living in your marriage but you.

  • #991624

    anonymouslysecret:

    Perhaps they just don’t want to have to support you for the rest of their lives, and are not willing to let you live in poverty. You may think it is easy to live in poverty, but yes, they do know better.

  • #991625

    Nobody
    Member

    SJS – Guidance goes a long way. As I said parents usually base what they are looking for on how the children were brought up and the home environment they came from – that does not mean they always get it right but it usually a safe place to start from.

    We must realise that proper shidduchim are way different from the goyshe way of seeking a partner and the tznius way of a shidduch is to take guidance from the parents and not go out clubbing or holidaying seeking your own partner or discussing the shidduchim with your friends. I am not saying that everyone has to marry via this method but if you are going down the shidduch route then guidance from parents is the correct way to go.

    Whilst I appreciate your comments about your own life again I would say that the experiences you went through made you grow up but only as far as it is possible for a 16 year old simply due to the fact that you have had limited years on this planet.

    I agree that life is different to when we grew up and I am much older than you but I am young enough and I hope wise enough to also know that I was once a teenager who really did know everything and my parents knew nothing. Furthermore I was sure my parents had no idea know who I wanted to marry because they were too old to know anything about my life. But……. many years down the line their guidance helped me in the transition of life from youngster to adult and I now appreciare that although they are no longer alive for me to tell them

  • #991626

    jphone
    Member

    Guidance does not mean “its my way or the highway” or in this particular situation, “the shidduch we want, or none at all” (some older singles claim this is THE root cause for the “shidduch crisis” – but I do not want this thread to turn to that discussion).

    The bigger questions are:

    1: Are the parents being honest enough with their own child to assure that the guidance stems from whats best for the child and not whats best for their image?

    2: Is the son/daughter mature enough to understand the parents position and are they confident enough in their decision to go ahead despite their misgivings?

  • #991627

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Nobody, I understand what you are saying. And I mostly agree.

    But I do know plenty of adults who have less life experience than me. My in-laws are a classic case and I wouldn’t trust them for advice in life. My MIL wasn’t crazy about me when she first met me (and later told me her reasons – all that had NOTHING to do with what my husband would care about in a spouse). I am happy that my husband chose his own path, rather than following his parents.

    I guess I was a never a teenager who “knew everything.” I always respected the advice of my mother – it doesn’t mean I always followed it, but I always listened with an open ear. I always thought about what she was saying and how I felt about it.

    I agree that guidance is important, but at a certain point, the person getting married has to make the decision. If someone isn’t mature enough to decide WHO to marry, how are they mature enough to get married?

    I don’t understand not discussing this with your friends – they might have a different insight into what your parents are looking for that isn’t right or what you are looking for that is detrimental. You just have to make sure to talk to the right friends who can give constructive advice.

  • #991628

    As being in the “shidduch parsha” and having this discussion i guess i will put my two cents in (in a males perspective).

    First, if your parents are the paying for the dates and you plan on having them support you after you get married, then they have every right in whom you should date. If you don’t want them to tell you who you date, my advice is not to expect any support from them and go out, get a job, and live your own life. That is what i have done.

    Second, i came across the following quote which is apropos: “Your parents, they give you your life, but then they try to give you their life.” Again, if you want to live your own life, get out from their shadow and GO. Keep in touch with them, even live in there house, just gain some independence.

    As noted in the previous posts, if you are mature enough to get married (and hopefully you are since that is why you are dating) then you should be mature enough to go out without having your parents holding your hand the entire courtship.

  • #991629

    1. Unfortunately there are parents who are vicariously trying to live their life through their children. Parents who fit into this category are in no way shape and form looking for what is best for their child.

    2. The Shulchan Aruch states that one does not need to listen to their parents when mum or dad say not to marry someone.

    That is not to say that mum or dad are automatically wrong, nor is that to say one should not try to see where they are coming from, and if perhaps they are correct here. Just trying to say that this is not a violation of kibud av v’em

  • #991630

    anonymouslysecret
    Participant

    Thanks for all the responses… I feel I need to clarify a few points…

    I am definitely not saying that I believe my parents do not have any advice to give. I truly respect my parents and I know that they are wise people. I just know that in the area of Hashkafa and frumkeit, they do NOT have the same life experiences and they cannot understand me. Yes, I grew up in their home, but no, I am not the same people. And to say that a girl in their 20’s has had no life experience and is just a teenager who thinks they know everything, is a very ignorant thing to say.

    Yes, my parents have had more life experiences… but they did not have my life experiences… Everyone is different…

    And also, those comments about expecting parents to pay for things and being immature… How can you judge someone without even knowing them. WHy do you assume that I am a typical single, dependent girl living with and expecting my parents funding. My parents happen to have raised me to be an independent adult. I do not expect any money to be handed to me. ANd if my parents offered it to me, I would be very grateful…. but I would also feel horrible because I know that this is not the lifestyle they wanted me to lead… I’m not trying to impose my views on them, let alone, expect them to ‘sponsor’ something they do not approve of!

    I hope to give my parents much nachas. Right now, I need to work out how to proceed with shidduchim… but in no way am I an ungrateful teenager!!!

  • #991631

    anonymouslysecret
    Participant

    I wanted to specifically respond to nobody’s reply:

    I am sorry that I sounded like an angry young lady! It must have been really late at night and I am seriously struggling with this right now. I did not mean to sound so negative.

    I DO NOT automatically write off a person’s advice based on age… I try not to write off anyone’s advice. I have many Rabbanim/teachers that I listen to and respect.

    As stated in my previous post. I completely disagree that I have not had any life experiences. YOu are correct in stating that my life experiences were in childhood and in my teenager years… but they are experiences nonetheless. I am actually teaching young teenagers now… and I do not believe that they know everything nor did I think that I knew everything as a teenager. I was very open to ideas and opinions of other people.

    When you say that old folks see beyond what you see now, I must say that I completely agree with that statement. That is why it is always suggested to ask ‘wisdom of the old and wise 🙂 ‘ “Zakein= Ze sheKana Chachma”… There are times, however, that even people who are a lot older than you cannot see past what their opinions are. There are also many people, regardless of age, that cannot understand that not everyone in their life wants exactly what they consider best for themselves!

    Your statement about the car is, in my case, completely reversed. I grew up around people who felt that cars were something that had to look perfect, be washed frequently, and cost a lot of money so as not to embarrass the owner in front of his neighbors… but I agree with you 100% that all it needs to do is serve its funtion. And when you say You cannot afford a car… You are once again snapping to judgement… I do own a car (albeit one who just about serves its function 🙂 but no less a car…)

    I have a lot more things to say… but I’ll end with this… You said ‘don’t discuss this with your opinionated friends…’ Baruch Hashem, Hashem has given me people that I can discuss the situation with… I firmly agree that it is important not to discuss this with your friends… it brings to exaggeration of negativity and lashon horah. I do get chizuk from some of my friends… but aside from this coffee room over here… this is not a ‘conspiracy of teenagers’…

    One more thing… I hope I didn’t/don’t sound like an ungrateful, opinionated, impressionable teenager… Judging by the comments, maybe I have been… but these are not my intentions… I am not ‘rebellious’ for the sake of ‘rebellion’… I love my parents very much and I do respect them in many ways… I believe people are entitled to their own opinions as long as it is in conjunction with Daas Torah!!!

  • #991632

    anonymouslysecret
    Participant

    One more postscript: nobody, you said: “Fact: Most parents will try to draw from the child’s form of education, school, sem/yeshiva, chinuch in the home, hashkofa etc to make some form of conclusion as to what MAY (note the word may, which means possibly not definately) be suited to their child in regards to a shidduch.”

    You are very correct in my case… That is exactly what my parents are doing: trying to draw from my form of education, high school, chinuch in the home… to make some form of conclusion… And I understand why they are doing this because normally it would make sense… but not if you are not interested in raising a family the way you were brought up!

  • #991633

    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    To answer the original question, If it’s in ruchnius,

    I think the parents have a right to object,

    & the child should respect their wishes.

    However if it’s in Gashmiyus, & or Shtusim, then the child

    has no obligation to listen & should RESPECTFULLY do what

    he feels is right.

    One should tell them respecfully, that ultimately he/her is the on who will

    live with her/him & it’s his choice.

    Unless (in my humble opinion) he is Somuch Al Shulchan Oviv,

    then if they support him/her they should have a say.

  • #991634

    Nobody
    Member

    To: anonymouslysecret

    My analagy of the car was merely plucked from the air and not directed at you personally therefore I was not snapping to judgment. I was trying to show how younger people compared to older people look at a car. Repeat – not you personally.

    Next… “but not if you are not interested in raising a family the way you were brought up!” Again this is written in a negative, confrontational tone. If the manner used to your parents is more explanatory and courteous you would get further.

    Parents are not unresaonable – they just a good explanation as to why their kids have come to this decision (whatever it is) in their lives and they want to ensure it is not a spur of the moment, fad, outside influence, friends, sem, etc etc

  • #991635

    anonymouslysecret
    Participant

    nobody, I definitely do not use this manner in talking to my parents… and once again, I did not intend for it to be negative or confrontational… I meant it as a fact… ‘for those people who do not want a shidduch to be pulled from a similar upbringing than what they had…’ It’s not that simple…

  • #991636

    anonymouslysecret: If we don’t have the facts, then at best we can only judge your case poorly.

    Just remember YOU are the one who will have to live with whomever you marry for the rest of your life; giving in to pressure & marrying someone who you will regret is not the way to go, and can lead C”V to very bad things.

  • #991637

    Before I start, I want to clear up a few things, as some are questioning others rights understandings & experiances. 1) I have Boruch Hashem made a few Chasunus. 2)As someone working with others problems (which ones left out for good reason)I might have “some” knowledge of what goes on in the “Frum”/”Heimishe” world, it’s effects & maybe how to deal with them. Please remember who is getting married. The parents do have an obligation to tell there kids “on the onset” of the Shidduch to tell there son/daughter there opinion, but they should remember that it does “not” give them the right to use demeaning terms, including “Es Past Nisht” “what are others going to say/think” “you deserve better” he/she is just not good enough for you” etc. etc. etc. All of these are Avak Loshon Horah! They should say if THEY VERIFIED that he/she is really not a good person (and even then remember that sometimes it’s better to let it happen anyway, & they should still treat there son/daughter well, even for Yiddishkeit purposes). If though it is for the other afformentioned reasons, remember WHAT DOESN’T PAS FOR YOU MIGHT PAS FOR HIM, HE/SHE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT’S BETTER, WHAT PEOPLE WILL THINK/SAY IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY FOR A YID MAKE DECISIONS “WE HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS BASED ON WHAT HASHEM WANTS OF US!!!!! The notion that a parent always wants what’s best for the child is “not” true, most of them want marriages that will raise their own prestige. And if Yichus or backround is what they want it proves my previous point about prestige, and it goes against everything that HAKODOISH BORUCH HU wants from us as we are ALL HIS CHILDREN. The G’morah states that the Bais Hamikdosh was only destroyed due to SIN’AS CHI’NUM, which is truly illogical, because how many times have you walked down the street, seen someone for the very first time and said I hate him? Never! And if he did something to you, then it’s not CHIN’UM, IT IS WRONG NOT CHI’NUM! WHAT IT MEANS IS WHEN YOU CAN’T STAND ANOTHER YID BASED ON BACKROUND, YICHUS, WHICH GROUP HE BELONGS TO, WHERE HE HAILS FROM, etc.etc. THAT IS SIN’AS CHI’NUM PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!! THE YAITZER HORAH COMES UP WITH ALL KINDS OF GOOD REASONS TO EXPLAIN WHY THIS CASE IS LOGICAL & MAKES SENSE, BUT PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LET’S WAKE UP K’LAL YISROEL AND HAVE AHAVAS CHI’NUM AND TREAT EVERY YID THE SAME WAY REGARDLESS OF HIS/HER BACKROUND,BE HE/SHE CHASSIDISH,LITVISH, YEKISH, ASHKENAZY, S’FARADI, MORROCAN, SYRIAN, IRAQI, IRANIAN, HUNGARIAN, POLISH, GALICIAN, OR FROM ANYWHERE ELSE!!!! Only “his” actions should count. Also when it comes to second marriages & the “child” is in the 30’s 40’s 50’s & the parents are still busy Haking A Chinik, something is wrong! & YES IT DOES HAPPEN!!!! HACHOISEM MIK’AIV LEV

    I see you have strong feelings about this. Nevertheless, in the future please refrain from all caps. Please try to separate your thoughts into paragraphs so it will be much easier to read, sometimes moderators will delete posts like this for similar reasons..Thank you…80

  • #991638

    Be Happy
    Member

    I run a chassidish shidduch group. We have 2 girls and one boy on our list that are close to thirty.(not from the same family 3 different cases) No suggestions made are ever good enough for their parents. We are now trying to help the girls and boy to make their own decisions with the help of d’as Torah. Another girl on our list got married 6 months ago with the help of a Dayan and a good friend as nothing was ever good enough for her parents.

  • #991639

    You got it right esterh, it never good enough “for the parents”, not that it’s not good enough for children, and please let not anyone say that 30 year olds are not mature enough to know whats right for themselves. It almost always comes down to what Pases for the parents, not what Past for the kids. It’s time to stop labeling & discriminating against our fellow Yiddin. U’bizchus Zeh Nigo’el

  • #991641

    For anyone out there wondering, I have an unbelievably great Yichus not just from before the war but even after the war & from both sides of my family, but by me it’s never ever brought up for a few reasons 1)It is Gaavah. 2)It is not my doing, Al Korchuch Ato Noilad. 3)Yichus Atzmi is what counts to Hashem. 4)If someone has big Yichus and flaunts it, he loses out either way in Oilom Ho’elyoin, if he does what Hashem wants whilst he is down here in the Oilom Hasheker, he only gets rewarded a little up there, since it’s expected of him to act according to his Yichus, and if he doesn’t act appropriatly down here in the Oilom Hasheker, he gets twice the punishment in the Oilom Ho’emes, once for the way he acted & second for ambarrasing his yichus. Remember the Posuk, V’shoveho Bitzdokoh, we will be redeamed by doing what is right

  • #991643

    ambush
    Participant

    wow…

    thank you everyone for showing me to REALLY appreciate my parents…!

  • #991644

    skates
    Member

    I would like to update everyone:

    I am very much aware that every situation is unique and requires daas torah:

    B”H the person in question asked daas torah and with help of a Rav was able to show the parents how sincere and eager The boy and girl were about the shidduch! B”H they are engaged!!!

    I can say that it was only after consulting daas torah that things set in motion because B”H the parents were eirlich enough to listen to daas torah and not make

    excuses why it doesn’t apply to them or why s/o else has no right to tell them what to do ect ( which happens in some cases).

    Thanks for all the advice and comments…with them I was able to help this friend organize thoughts and feelings in way that was presentable to parents!

  • #991645

    skates
    Member

    not to cause confusion…the question was posted by a mutual friend smarty12

  • #991646

    Joseph
    Member

    Mazal Tov!

  • #991647

    koma
    Member

    Why the rush? (as asked by Havemoreseichel) Marriage is a vehicle to shleimus, going from an I to a flexible, giving we. Without marriage and young, you in most cases lack this shleimus, and it is a lifetime work. It is best to get a head start. Given that a youngster is not a shaleim, guidance is critical, but often a wise third party is the best guide in lieu of or in contrast with parental guidance. There are also biological issues that chazal were well aware of in endorsing early marriage. Being in the Western, modern kugel, we have all manner of complexities and hangups that are hindering the Torah ideal.

  • #991648

    cherrybim
    Participant

    YW Moderator-39

    “The Shulchan Aruch states that one does not need to listen to their parents when mum or dad say not to marry someone…this is not a violation of kibud av v’em”

    I basically heard these words directly from Rav Moshe Feinstein TZ’L. It helps to have a Rav vouch for the girl/boy.

  • #991649

    shaindel
    Member

    Many times if a mother senses that something isn’t right with the shidduch, behavior or hashkafa differences etc. She should discourage the shidduch. girls and boys should learn to look out for warning signs if their is something wrong ex. if a boy is anti a certain yeshiva then ask why!!-did they have bad experiences? or if a girl doesn’t want to talk about her family then bring it up!! Especially since the dating period is quick singles must be alert and careful to look out for key problems!!

  • #991650

    aries2756
    Participant

    I believe we need to put a different perspective on this topic and that is preparing children for marriage. Parents and Yeshivas need to take a more active role in better preparing kids for marriage. They need to understand that marriage is not disposable and that it takes hard work and commitment to make it work. It also takes a certain amount of maturity, wisdom, humor and the ability to compromise as well as putting your spouses needs first. That doesn’t mean that your needs are not important but when each spouse put’s the others needs first, everyone’s needs get addressed and satisfied.

    The other thing that needs to be taught is what to look for in a spouse. How to recognize the qualities that are important to YOU (not necessarily your parents), but to you. Know what you are willing to compromise on and know what is absolutely non-negotiable.

    If your child is prepared for dating in this manner then once you agree to a prospective shidduch you should be able to trust their judgment. However, anyone who is not ready or prepared to get married should not be dating or getting married just because everyone else is, that is a recipe for disaster not only for them and their spouse, but also for the potential children they bring into the union.

  • #991651

    anuran
    Participant

    In our case we ignored my parents and got married anyway. Twenty years later we are very happy together.

  • #991652

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Over the last several years, Moreinu HaRav Hagaon Shloimele Rosenbaum, shlita, has met with numerous boys and girls, along with their parents. He always stresses to the parents that they should have limited say in the matter of shidduchim, and that a child is far more in touch with what he or she needs, as opposed to what the parents want.

    HaRav Rosenbaaum, shlita, has also forcefully come out against the shtussim that goes on with shidduchim – looking at the girls’ dress size, tablecloth color and food choices on Shabbos, camps the girl attended, and so on. He works hard to get the boys and girls of his community (near Tzfas) married as young as possible. It’s not unusual for all the girls from a particular high school graduating class to be engaged before they graduate!

  • #991653

    blinky
    Participant

    I just heard this crazy story that the mother of the boy wanted to know if the girl went to a certain seminary-which she did not, so the mother imediately said no. When asked “But what if your son won’t mind?” -she said thats what she is afraid of-that they will like each other and marry and she won’t end up getting her______seminary girl!!

    As far as i’m concerned the boy is marrying the girl-not the mother-no?

  • #991654

    yossi z.
    Member

    I was hoping to come back to the cr for some respite but not only do I find out that 1) mazal tov my brother got engaged so now I am next and 2) I have to bump into this thread which makes me dread even more going/being in shidduchim…. (By the way are all the moderators still here or were there switches while I was gone?)

  • #991655

    Kasha
    Member

    Mazal Tov! IY”H by you b’korov (with your parents blessings.)

  • #991656

    yossi z.
    Member

    Kasha thanx but you aren’t helping the matter 😛

    I am going to risk the mods for this one but on a totally unrelated topic did the 3rd general lose his job too?

  • #991657

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    2) I have to bump into this thread which makes me dread even more going/being in shidduchim

    Why? Do your parents and you not see eye-to-eye on shidduchim?

    The Wolf

  • #991658

    yossi z.
    Member

    No it just scares me such situations exist (I know I have read the thread and articles on related topic(s) but still…) And I am not batuach that my parents and I do see eye to eye

  • #991659

    yossi z.
    Member

    It is not exactly shidduchim I am worried about it is the other factors which affect it

  • #991660

    oomis
    Member

    If you are just about in the Parsha, Yossi, then you should sit down and talk calmly with your parents and get the sense what each of you in thinking in this area. It may or may not be that you are all on the same page. In either case,don’t wait until you are redt to someone or meet someone, to be clear about your needs and intentions.

  • #991661

    smartcookie
    Member

    Yossi z- you better make sure to tell your parents EXACTLY what you’re looking for even though they might not like certain things.

    YOU are marrying the girl and no one else so YOU have to be happy.

  • #991662

    yossi z.
    Member

    Thanx

  • #991663

    yossi z.
    Member

    One question though, how do I open such a discussion?

  • #991664

    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    I believe Harav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L has a t’shuvah on this topic.

    If I remember correctly he says that if it’s not for religious

    reasons or a REAL problem w/ shidduch for the child,

    (not any personal preferences) the child is not required to listen to the parents. It goes w/o saying that the child has to explain only respectfully that the shidduch is ultimately for

    him and therefore his decision. This is no heter in any form to be disrespectful to ones parents.

  • #991665

    oomis
    Member

    Yossi, you can open such a dialogue (after everyone is well-fed and rested)on your own, just by saying you want to sit down and have a talk with them. OR – you can wait for the subject to come up, say, about a friend or family member who becomes engaged, and use it as a springboard for such a discussion. Good luck to you.

  • #991666

    smartcookie
    Member

    Yoosi, it’s hard. When I was in that Parsha, I waited for the first call to come- and then I asked my mother if the boy matches all my (important) requirements.

    Then I went through with her what I wanted in a shidduch for myself. This way, any furthur suggestions were judged accordingly.

    Hatzlacha!

  • #991667

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If I remember correctly he says that if it’s not for religious

    reasons or a REAL problem w/ shidduch for the child,

    (not any personal preferences) the child is not required to listen to the parents. It goes w/o saying that the child has to explain only respectfully that the shidduch is ultimately for

    him and therefore his decision. This is no heter in any form to be disrespectful to ones parents.

    Can you please point me to the teshuva?

    I have a hard time believing that R. Moshe would say that you have to listen to your parents regarding shidduchim if the problem is in personal preferences (i.e. for such factors as hair color, facial features, height, weight, etc.)

    The Wolf

  • #991668

    aries2756
    Participant

    Yossi, firstly mazal tov on your simcha. Secondly, take a breath, and then sit down and think about who you are and what you imagine your life to be. YOUR marriage and family will be a combination and compromise of the best of what you know (from your home, learning, and experience) and the best of what she knows and the decisions you will make together.

    Shidduchim are a partnership between the parents, the shadchan and most of all Hashem. They don’t happen just stam, and they really don’t follow the list of requirements people have. Let me clarify that. Rarely does anyone get most if not anything on their lists so don’t even bother with it. Take a deep look at yourself and try to understand what type of young woman would compliment and complete the person you are. Are you looking for a baalas chessed? Are you looking for someone who can appreciate your sense of humor? Do you enjoy having an open house, do you want someone who doesn’t mind entertaining and sharing you with guests? Do you appreciate someone who would put on a pair of sneakers and go for 3 mile walk with you?

    Think of the real important issues that really make up good and solid relationships. The outer issues that boys think of are foolish because a size 2 can turn into a size 10 very easily. So if that is number one on your list consider that shallow. When you get to the heart of the matter, that is when you should approach your parents and let them know the type of girl that would win your heart. Be prepared to “listen to understand” your parents perspective. Let them talk and don’t interrupt. Give them the courtesy of having their say, you might be surprised that they know you well enough to be on the same page. Then ask them to give you the same courtesy to listen to what you have to say, and ask them to be on the same page as you because it will make the dating process go more quickly and easily. After all there is no point in you dating girls that you will not choose to marry.

  • #991669

    yossi z.
    Member

    Thanx aries (you sound like you are either a shadchan/is or a person with knowledge/experience or both)

  • #991670

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    tell your parents you don’t support their choice of shidduch either. that ought to shut them up

  • #991671

    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    WolfishMusings wrote; “I have a hard time believing that R. Moshe would say that you have to listen to your parents regarding shidduchim if the problem is in personal preferences”

    You misunderstood me, I said “punkt farkert” than what you understood. Please reread my post and tell me if I have an hasborah problem. I will IY”H look up the teshuva to make sure it exists in reality as well as in my memory.

    I might be mixing it up w/ if one has to listen to parent “mishigas” to wait for an older sibling although they are of age and time is ticking.

  • #991672

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You misunderstood me, I said “punkt farkert” than what you understood.

    Then in that case, I apologize. I did, indeed, misunderstand what you wrote.

    The Wolf

  • #991673

    philosopher
    Member

    The most important thing in looking for a marriage partner is that it has to suit YOU not your parents.

    If your parents are normal, good people that you know have your best interets in mind then have a conversation with them and explain what your needs are (after first getting to know yourself inside out).

    If your parents are unreasonable and selfish then talk to a Rosh Yeshiva or anyone you trust and work through the issue with them. The bottom line is that you need to remember that you will have to live with this person for the rest of your life and therefore your marriage partner needs to suit you, not your parents.

  • #991674

    yossi z.
    Member

    What is required of a person before he/she would be considered ready to be in shidduchim?

  • #991675

    myfriend
    Member

    yossi – 18 years old, at the latest. Back in the day, we would get married earlier. But the Mishna in Pirkei Avos does say Shemonah Esre L’Chuppa.

    philosopher – Jewish parents are by and large very reasonable, any personal experience notwithstanding. And parents probably have a better idea what is right that an 18 year old shnook.

  • #991676

    blinky
    Participant

    “And parents probably have a better idea what is right that an 18 year old shnook.” Unfortunately, i have to disagree somewhat with you. Nowadays what i hear what some parents “want” for their child is immature and childish. Im not saying this as a generall thing-there are many wise parents out there(like mine:)) who know these matters and are great to get advice from, but definitely the boy/girl should have a massive say after all they are the ones getting married!

  • #991677

    myfriend
    Member

    You can easily, and accurately, reverse what you said, to say… nowadays what I hear what some youngsters “want” for their shidduch is immature and childish. I’m not saying this as a generall thing; there are many wise youngsters out there who know these matters, but definitely the parent should have a say, after all they have years of experiance!

  • #991678

    blinky
    Participant

    lol! I guess the immature youngsters should get advice from their wise parents and the mature young adults should not listen to their immature parents “advice.”

  • #991679

    artchill
    Participant

    Myfriend:

    How many times do you hear 18 year old shnooks saying that a prospective family doesn’t ‘POSS’ for them?

    NEVER!!

    The unresonable ‘POSSing’ requirements come from the parents who feel the need to have their picture in the Yated in order to feel validated. Again, some 21 year old shnooks have more life experience and see things clearer than fame seeking adults!!

  • #991680

    myfriend
    Member

    artchill – I hear it infrequently from both parents and youngsters. They may express it differently but have the same feeling.

    And how often do you hear youngsters come up with the most half-witted, moronic, sophomoric, boorish, boneheaded, mindless, imbecilic, absurd “requirements” for their prespective shidduch?

    All too often.

  • #991681

    yossi z.
    Member

    It is not just age that is a “requirement” for marriage there are other factors. What constitutes maturity? And what else is necessary?

  • #991682

    blinky
    Participant

    myfriend many of the youngsters witted moronic, sophomoric…..requirements are really a reflection of what their parents want.

  • #991683

    yossi z.
    Member

    And if it was just age then I would be married already

  • #991684

    artchill
    Participant

    Myfriend:

    Maskim!

    But in close to 95% of dates, those “half-witted, moronic, sophomoric, boorish, boneheaded, mindless, imbecilic, absurd “requirements” end up being deal breakers and first date dumpings.

    It is healthy for a person to see the light on their own that their ideas are “half-witted, moronic, sophomoric, boorish, boneheaded, mindless, imbecilic, absurd “requirements” rather than be nixed arbitrarily by equally “half-witted, moronic, sophomoric, boorish, boneheaded, mindless, imbecilic, absurd “requirements” of the parents!!

  • #991685

    myfriend
    Member

    yossi – age is the only technical “requirement” that comes to mind.

    blinky – sometimes that’s true, and often it is not.

    artchill – Nu, everyone needs common sense.

  • #991686

    yossi z.
    Member

    Yes but what is necessary for a person to be suitable for marriage?

  • #991687

    myfriend
    Member

    “what is necessary for a person to be suitable for marriage?”

    Put on a suit — and a chosson tie.

  • #991688

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    And parents probably have a better idea what is right that an 18 year old shnook.

    I would venture to say that if the 18-year-old “shnook” doesn’t know what he wants, then he’s not ready for marriage in the first place.

    The Wolf

  • #991689

    yossi z.
    Member

    A person can be “of age” and totally not be ready for marriage (like some of my friends)

  • #991690

    blinky
    Participant

    yossi-there are no set requirements. Everyone is different and ones requirement may not be yours. As long as you are stable and mature to go into marriage thats fine.Im Yirtzeh Hashem the right one will come for you. Wishing you lots of Hatzlacha.

  • #991691

    philosopher
    Member

    I don’t beleive that 18 year old know EXACTLY what they need and that’s why I never suggested anyone should do anything on their own . However if the parents are selfish (sorry maybe most of them are not, but a lot of parents want kovod, a knakedige shidduch or what they want in a marriage partner for THEMSELVES not what their child needs) then one should talk it over with a wise adult. The best thing is that the wise adult should be a person the parents would listen to like this is no hard feelings develope between the parents and child (provided the parents are only selfish and not meshegoyim – then nothing can help the parents feelings shouldn’t become bruised.)

  • #991692

    yossi z.
    Member

    Myfriend try telling that to any parent (forget mine)

  • #991693

    yossi z.
    Member

    Okay what constitutes maturity? (This whole thing of when is a person ready for marriage, is a point of contention so I am trying to see what “outsiders” have to say)

  • #991694

    yossi z.
    Member

    Another question. How does the whole process even start?

  • #991695

    yossi z.
    Member

    I am sorry but I just thought of a clearer way of asking what I want. How does/would a person know they are ready for marriage? (And it isn’t just a fantasy?)

  • #991696

    aries2756
    Participant

    I believe that one of the signs that a person is ready to start dating is that they are thinking about their future and understands that it is about giving and loving another person and not about the universe revolving around them. It is being prepared to give of themselves and not about what they will be getting from someone else. This is a big revelation. A person who is eager to marry because what they can gain from marriage is not as mature as they think they are. Of course everyone gains from marriage, your zivig completes you and you are raised to a higher madreigah. But looking for what you can gain from marriage is not the real sign of maturity and readiness for marriage.

    Understanding that YOU yourself have a lot to give to another person, compassion, love, patience, understanding, friendship, companionship, kindness, generosity, appreciation, etc. Things that you observed and were taught by your parents, grandparents, rebbeim, friends, etc. The qualities and values that have evolved within you that have made you who you are. When you recognize that you are ready to share this with another person and ready to give of yourself, then you are mature enough and ready to find your zivig.

    As far as parents are concerned, when I speak to parents and they tell me they have a child in the parsha I alwasy ask “what is your child looking for in a partner”. If they tell me what they are looking for I listen politely and then say ” I hear you and that’s very interesting, but really what is your child looking for”.

  • #991697

    WIY
    Member

    Yossi,

    You will save yourself much time and confusion by going to your local Jewish book store and looking through the books on Shidduchim and marriage and buying one of them.

    You will hear lots of good and some very bad advice here and this topic is too serious and important for you to leave it up to us to advise you.

  • #991698

    Tatty1
    Member

    Let’s get down to business. Perhaps someone can suggest a good shidduch for a young man who the parents will approve of?

  • #991699

    yossi z.
    Member

    Thank you aries (again).

    WIY: I wasn’t exactly looking for advice rather than opinions but you are correct and thank you for pointing that out (and I should have thought of going to the bookstore)

  • #991700

    oomis
    Member

    A child in the parsha shopuld make up his or her own mind, but do so respectfully, even while disagreeing with the parents.

    18 today is not mature enough of an age for most kids to get married. 18, 100 years ago meant kids who worked hard from their earliest years to run the farm, run the business, help momma with the younger kids, and a whole host of things that matured them much faster than today’s kids. They also were less spoiled, listened to their parents obediently, and were smeichim b’chelkam.

    Today’s kids are a ME generation, that want instant gratification. They want to think of themselves as kollel families, but are not happy to live what is meant to be a kollel life. They want to sit and learn, but not to be concerned with the money tree that does not grow in their backyards. They want to have lots of kids, but not take care of them without nannies, because it’s “too hard,” or “not fulfilling.” Above all, they do not have a clue about working through problems, and when those problems inevitably crop up, as they do in most marriages, they want to cut and run.

  • #991701

    myfriend
    Member

    The earlier a person gets married, the better. 18 is ideal. A little older or a little younger is also good. Like Rav Miller wrote for our own generation, a Beis Yaacov girl should be wed soon after or before graduation. Every day after she leaves the Beis Yaakov marks another step away from idealism, for the street and the office and the secular school have an unfailing effect which increases from day to day.

  • #991702

    blinky
    Participant

    myfriend-just to be clear, 18 might be ideal but if a person does not get married at 18, there is nothing wrong with them. Many ppl mature when they are older-especially when they are out in the “big ” world and not just coming fresh out of their sheltered school.

  • #991703

    myfriend
    Member

    “Many ppl mature when they are older-especially when they are out in the “big ” world and not just coming fresh out of their sheltered school.”

    blinky – That’s exactly why the Gedolim, like I quoted, strongly urge us to get married BEFORE we get far away from our sheltered schools into the big (bad) world.

  • #991704

    blinky
    Participant

    myfriend, no matter wich way you slice it when someone gets married they are going to be out in the “big bad world.” Its impossible to be sheltered your whole life, unless you coop yourself up the whole day and night in your house. You have to learn techniques to live out there and s/o thats been there already obviously has more of a certain sense of maturity to s/o thats fresh out of seminary. Im not saying not to get married at 18, im just pointing out that above 18 is (more than) fine too.

  • #991705

    yechezkel89
    Member

    obviously my friend doesn’t live in the world of reality. in today’s day and age 18 is to almost always to immature to get married. getting married at 18 won’t protect them from the big bad world. the best way of “protecting” is instilling w/i them proper chinuch. thereby one will know how to cope with the dangerous immoral world that we live in.

  • #991706

    philosopher
    Member

    There are people that are still immature at age 35, so they shouldn’t get married they mature?

  • #991707

    aries2756
    Participant

    Deciding at what age to get married is really irrelevant because age has little to do with maturity. An 18 year old girl can be very mature and ready to get married because of her environment such as a large family, experience with babysitting, chesed, volunteer work, etc. On the other hand, a 22 year old who has very little experience and is spoiled by her parents, was never expected to lift a finger, had everything done for her can be very immature and selfish and not ready to take care of a husband.

    The same goes for young men. I certainly doubt that an 18 year old bochur is ready for marriage, but a 22 year old who has different life experience might well be more mature than some 24 or 25 year olds that are dating and have no clue what they are doing or what they are looking for. Basically still having their parents running their shiduchim and coming back from their dates with no opinions whatsoever.

    I met a woman a few weeks ago who told me about her 27 year old professional son who was looking for a shidduch. I mentioned a few great girls right off the bat. She nixed them immediately. She literally turned her nose up at them and one was my niece. Is there any wonder that her 27 year old “great professional catch” is still single?

  • #991708

    blinky
    Participant

    aries-Don’t be so quick to judge the boy, it sounds as if the mother has to grow up a little bit after all she is the one who “turned her nose up”-not him.

  • #991709

    oomis
    Member

    Life experience is what matures a person. Most bochurim today, who spend all their time in a Beis Medrash, know nothing of the real world, and like it or not,t hat is the world we live in. They have to learn how to deal with it, and that is something most boys and girls are not ready to do at age 18.

  • #991710

    know nothing of the real world,

    They know a great deal about the real world, unfortunately not always enough. They know less about the world of Sheker, unfortunately sometimes too much.

    and like it or not,t hat is the world we live in

    Which world we live in is not the same for everyone. It is our job to live in the real world as much as we can, and uproot the world of Sheker from our lives as much as we can. That’s why we are here.

  • #991711

    philosopher
    Member

    They know a great deal about the real world, unfortunately not always enough. They know less about the world of Sheker, unfortunately sometimes too much.

    That is very well said.

    In fact there are those who barely know a thing about the world of Sheker and get marriage at age 16 and es felt zei gornisht, there is nothing that they are missing and there marriages are very good and stable (not that I would let my kids get married at that age).

    Then you have very “worldly”, knowledgable, mature people who are missing a whole lot of knowledge of the real world and their marriages are not davka good and stable.

  • #991712

    smartcookie
    Member

    Some people never mature.

    Some people act like kids when they’re 80.

  • #991713

    Max Well
    Member

    So someone who “never matures” should never get married? Chas V’Shalom! The chiyuv to get married isn’t dependent on anyones feelings of “maturity”. Nor is Chazal’s sagely advice to get married at 18 or younger.

    Far far better to get married very young straight out of the Beis Medrash or Beis Yaakov, before the negative influences start creeping in, then to wait to “mature”. Mature in shtuss and negative influences is what’s going to occur. Far more successful are the marriages of those who married very young (i.e. 18), then those who married later.

  • #991714

    aries2756
    Participant

    Obviously it is up to parents and Rebbeim to help children mature, and if a child gets to a certain age and maturity has not set in on its own they should see to it that that young person gets help to guide them into adulthood. WE also know and believe that Hashem has a zivig picked out for everyone so we should not discourage anyone from getting married, but we should be honest and reasonable when redding shiduchim. Lets not “trick” someone into marrying an inappropriate mate. That will only end in divorce and keep the “right” zivig from ever finding them. Lets do OUR best not to get in Hashem’s way.

  • #991715

    missme
    Member

    If a person is getting closer to 18 (i.e. 16) and is still not ready for marriage, of course they should see to it that that the young person gets help to guide them into adulthood.

  • #991716

    philosopher
    Member

    I’ve seen immature people become menstchen after getting married.

    There is a difference between immaturity and bad middos which a 75 year old person can have as well. Bad middos can have a detrimental effect in marriage, while being married and having kids make MOST people mature quickly.

    When talking about life experience, how is someone supposed to have marital experience if they were never married? One who has experience in some areas in life doesn’t necessarily mean that they are experienced in all areas.

  • #991717

    smartcookie
    Member

    Philosopher you’re right. If someone is a good person(middos),and responsible, then they’re ready for marriage.

    Maturity will follow. The couple grows together.

    But “marriage is not a hospital”. It won’t change bad middos.

  • #991718

    strawberry
    Member

    Bump

  • #991719

    Question: when you bumped this from the dead did you read through it first?

    Are there details you need to add?

  • #991720

    Burnt Steak
    Participant

    I think some of the above posters make great points about the proper use of cheese. When used properly, cheese, can make any person seem agreeable to a shidduch. In my experience the sharper the cheese, the better. Some may say that cheese is not the way to go. I say right back to them that if they would take a broad look at the use of cheese in the Jewish history, they would easily see that cheese has been at the forefront of happy Jewish marriages.

    In other news sometimes bumping has unintended consequences…

    All this was influenced by The Temper Trap and their Sweet Disposition

  • #991721

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I like to see what I posted on old threads. This one was pretty good. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/when-parents-dont-support-a-shidduch/page/2#post-135895

  • #991722

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    I got a chuckle out of that, popa.

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