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And parents probably have a better idea what is right that an 18 year old shnook.
I would venture to say that if the 18-year-old “shnook” doesn’t know what he wants, then he’s not ready for marriage in the first place.
The Wolf
A person can be “of age” and totally not be ready for marriage (like some of my friends)
yossi-there are no set requirements. Everyone is different and ones requirement may not be yours. As long as you are stable and mature to go into marriage thats fine.Im Yirtzeh Hashem the right one will come for you. Wishing you lots of Hatzlacha.
I don’t beleive that 18 year old know EXACTLY what they need and that’s why I never suggested anyone should do anything on their own . However if the parents are selfish (sorry maybe most of them are not, but a lot of parents want kovod, a knakedige shidduch or what they want in a marriage partner for THEMSELVES not what their child needs) then one should talk it over with a wise adult. The best thing is that the wise adult should be a person the parents would listen to like this is no hard feelings develope between the parents and child (provided the parents are only selfish and not meshegoyim – then nothing can help the parents feelings shouldn’t become bruised.)
Myfriend try telling that to any parent (forget mine)
Okay what constitutes maturity? (This whole thing of when is a person ready for marriage, is a point of contention so I am trying to see what “outsiders” have to say)
Another question. How does the whole process even start?
I am sorry but I just thought of a clearer way of asking what I want. How does/would a person know they are ready for marriage? (And it isn’t just a fantasy?)
I believe that one of the signs that a person is ready to start dating is that they are thinking about their future and understands that it is about giving and loving another person and not about the universe revolving around them. It is being prepared to give of themselves and not about what they will be getting from someone else. This is a big revelation. A person who is eager to marry because what they can gain from marriage is not as mature as they think they are. Of course everyone gains from marriage, your zivig completes you and you are raised to a higher madreigah. But looking for what you can gain from marriage is not the real sign of maturity and readiness for marriage.
Understanding that YOU yourself have a lot to give to another person, compassion, love, patience, understanding, friendship, companionship, kindness, generosity, appreciation, etc. Things that you observed and were taught by your parents, grandparents, rebbeim, friends, etc. The qualities and values that have evolved within you that have made you who you are. When you recognize that you are ready to share this with another person and ready to give of yourself, then you are mature enough and ready to find your zivig.
As far as parents are concerned, when I speak to parents and they tell me they have a child in the parsha I alwasy ask “what is your child looking for in a partner”. If they tell me what they are looking for I listen politely and then say ” I hear you and that’s very interesting, but really what is your child looking for”.
Yossi,
You will save yourself much time and confusion by going to your local Jewish book store and looking through the books on Shidduchim and marriage and buying one of them.
You will hear lots of good and some very bad advice here and this topic is too serious and important for you to leave it up to us to advise you.
Let’s get down to business. Perhaps someone can suggest a good shidduch for a young man who the parents will approve of?
Thank you aries (again).
WIY: I wasn’t exactly looking for advice rather than opinions but you are correct and thank you for pointing that out (and I should have thought of going to the bookstore)
A child in the parsha shopuld make up his or her own mind, but do so respectfully, even while disagreeing with the parents.
18 today is not mature enough of an age for most kids to get married. 18, 100 years ago meant kids who worked hard from their earliest years to run the farm, run the business, help momma with the younger kids, and a whole host of things that matured them much faster than today’s kids. They also were less spoiled, listened to their parents obediently, and were smeichim b’chelkam.
Today’s kids are a ME generation, that want instant gratification. They want to think of themselves as kollel families, but are not happy to live what is meant to be a kollel life. They want to sit and learn, but not to be concerned with the money tree that does not grow in their backyards. They want to have lots of kids, but not take care of them without nannies, because it’s “too hard,” or “not fulfilling.” Above all, they do not have a clue about working through problems, and when those problems inevitably crop up, as they do in most marriages, they want to cut and run.
The earlier a person gets married, the better. 18 is ideal. A little older or a little younger is also good. Like Rav Miller wrote for our own generation, a Beis Yaacov girl should be wed soon after or before graduation. Every day after she leaves the Beis Yaakov marks another step away from idealism, for the street and the office and the secular school have an unfailing effect which increases from day to day.
myfriend-just to be clear, 18 might be ideal but if a person does not get married at 18, there is nothing wrong with them. Many ppl mature when they are older-especially when they are out in the “big ” world and not just coming fresh out of their sheltered school.
“Many ppl mature when they are older-especially when they are out in the “big ” world and not just coming fresh out of their sheltered school.”
blinky – That’s exactly why the Gedolim, like I quoted, strongly urge us to get married BEFORE we get far away from our sheltered schools into the big (bad) world.
myfriend, no matter wich way you slice it when someone gets married they are going to be out in the “big bad world.” Its impossible to be sheltered your whole life, unless you coop yourself up the whole day and night in your house. You have to learn techniques to live out there and s/o thats been there already obviously has more of a certain sense of maturity to s/o thats fresh out of seminary. Im not saying not to get married at 18, im just pointing out that above 18 is (more than) fine too.
obviously my friend doesn’t live in the world of reality. in today’s day and age 18 is to almost always to immature to get married. getting married at 18 won’t protect them from the big bad world. the best way of “protecting” is instilling w/i them proper chinuch. thereby one will know how to cope with the dangerous immoral world that we live in.
There are people that are still immature at age 35, so they shouldn’t get married they mature?
Deciding at what age to get married is really irrelevant because age has little to do with maturity. An 18 year old girl can be very mature and ready to get married because of her environment such as a large family, experience with babysitting, chesed, volunteer work, etc. On the other hand, a 22 year old who has very little experience and is spoiled by her parents, was never expected to lift a finger, had everything done for her can be very immature and selfish and not ready to take care of a husband.
The same goes for young men. I certainly doubt that an 18 year old bochur is ready for marriage, but a 22 year old who has different life experience might well be more mature than some 24 or 25 year olds that are dating and have no clue what they are doing or what they are looking for. Basically still having their parents running their shiduchim and coming back from their dates with no opinions whatsoever.
I met a woman a few weeks ago who told me about her 27 year old professional son who was looking for a shidduch. I mentioned a few great girls right off the bat. She nixed them immediately. She literally turned her nose up at them and one was my niece. Is there any wonder that her 27 year old “great professional catch” is still single?
aries-Don’t be so quick to judge the boy, it sounds as if the mother has to grow up a little bit after all she is the one who “turned her nose up”-not him.
Life experience is what matures a person. Most bochurim today, who spend all their time in a Beis Medrash, know nothing of the real world, and like it or not,t hat is the world we live in. They have to learn how to deal with it, and that is something most boys and girls are not ready to do at age 18.
know nothing of the real world,
They know a great deal about the real world, unfortunately not always enough. They know less about the world of Sheker, unfortunately sometimes too much.
and like it or not,t hat is the world we live in
Which world we live in is not the same for everyone. It is our job to live in the real world as much as we can, and uproot the world of Sheker from our lives as much as we can. That’s why we are here.
They know a great deal about the real world, unfortunately not always enough. They know less about the world of Sheker, unfortunately sometimes too much.
That is very well said.
In fact there are those who barely know a thing about the world of Sheker and get marriage at age 16 and es felt zei gornisht, there is nothing that they are missing and there marriages are very good and stable (not that I would let my kids get married at that age).
Then you have very “worldly”, knowledgable, mature people who are missing a whole lot of knowledge of the real world and their marriages are not davka good and stable.
Some people never mature.
Some people act like kids when they’re 80.
So someone who “never matures” should never get married? Chas V’Shalom! The chiyuv to get married isn’t dependent on anyones feelings of “maturity”. Nor is Chazal’s sagely advice to get married at 18 or younger.
Far far better to get married very young straight out of the Beis Medrash or Beis Yaakov, before the negative influences start creeping in, then to wait to “mature”. Mature in shtuss and negative influences is what’s going to occur. Far more successful are the marriages of those who married very young (i.e. 18), then those who married later.
Obviously it is up to parents and Rebbeim to help children mature, and if a child gets to a certain age and maturity has not set in on its own they should see to it that that young person gets help to guide them into adulthood. WE also know and believe that Hashem has a zivig picked out for everyone so we should not discourage anyone from getting married, but we should be honest and reasonable when redding shiduchim. Lets not “trick” someone into marrying an inappropriate mate. That will only end in divorce and keep the “right” zivig from ever finding them. Lets do OUR best not to get in Hashem’s way.
If a person is getting closer to 18 (i.e. 16) and is still not ready for marriage, of course they should see to it that that the young person gets help to guide them into adulthood.
I’ve seen immature people become menstchen after getting married.
There is a difference between immaturity and bad middos which a 75 year old person can have as well. Bad middos can have a detrimental effect in marriage, while being married and having kids make MOST people mature quickly.
When talking about life experience, how is someone supposed to have marital experience if they were never married? One who has experience in some areas in life doesn’t necessarily mean that they are experienced in all areas.
Philosopher you’re right. If someone is a good person(middos),and responsible, then they’re ready for marriage.
Maturity will follow. The couple grows together.
But “marriage is not a hospital”. It won’t change bad middos.
Bump
Question: when you bumped this from the dead did you read through it first?
Are there details you need to add?
I think some of the above posters make great points about the proper use of cheese. When used properly, cheese, can make any person seem agreeable to a shidduch. In my experience the sharper the cheese, the better. Some may say that cheese is not the way to go. I say right back to them that if they would take a broad look at the use of cheese in the Jewish history, they would easily see that cheese has been at the forefront of happy Jewish marriages.
In other news sometimes bumping has unintended consequences…
All this was influenced by The Temper Trap and their Sweet Disposition
I like to see what I posted on old threads. This one was pretty good. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/when-parents-dont-support-a-shidduch/page/2#post-135895
I got a chuckle out of that, popa.
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