Who Is Really On Welfare? Basic Hashkafa!

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  • #608012

    There ia a well known story involving the famed Kovno Rov, HaGa’on R’ Yitzchok Elchonon Spektor.

    When R’ Yitzchok Elchonon was a young married man, he was supported by his father in law. As his name slowly spread as an emerging posek, he was offered numerous jobs to become a Rov of a town, which he continuously turned down. Eventually, in desperation, the Kovno kehilla asked him why he was refusing their offer. R’ Yitzchok Elchonon explained that as his f-i-l was supporting him, he felt it unsuitable to assume a job as Rov. Not to be outdone, the leaders of the kovno kehilla turned to his father in law, and asked him if he is bothered if his son in law leaves for kovno. With his f-i-l’s bracha, R’ yitzchok elchonon left the small town where he was, and set out to kovno. Yet as the wagon started out on the way, a pair of horseriders came chasing with an urgent message – R’ yitzchok elchonon’s father in law was no longer alive.

    One can never know who is really supporting who. To everyone it amy have looked like that his father in law was supportng him, but in reality the opposite was true. His father in law was only alive in his zechus.

    With all this fuss over amsallem, and lapid, and their various cronies, we are forgetting one important point. The chareidim are supporting the chiloinim, not the other way round.

    When the brisker rov was told that the satmar rebbe had said that the israeli victory was due to ma’aseh soton, he famously answered that they have a zechus for allowing yeshiva bochurim to learn. Because any victory, or economic succes in e”y is only because of the learners.

    If they draft isralei’s into the army, they will npo longer win any wars – despite the larger army. If they stop supporting yeshivois, the national debt will only grow, and the econmy will stagnate.

    It is important for us to remember this basic hashkapha.

  • #927802

    This argument is flawed in many ways. For starters, even if the essential point were true, anyone who has been to Israel understands that it is not 100% of the chareidim who are supporting the chilonim.

  • #927803

    The argument is spot on.

    And it isnt 100% of the chilonim who are supporting the Chareidim.

    And whatever little financial support the Chareidim receive from the State, it is extremely minimal and far less than needed to survive on the bare necessities. It isn’t what is keeping the Chareidim financially solevant. (Not to even get into the fact that Chareidim pay taxes too.)

  • #927804

    Good story and very true.

    Each Charaidi in Kollel should learn like Rav Yiztchak Elchanan, then we can discuss. Until then, no one wants to pay for people who want to work, but can’t due to societal pressures, and therefore loaf around in the CR.

  • #927805

    y me

    This is a horrible argument! The arangement between R’ Yitzchok Elchonon & his father-in-law was agreed upon by both of them. This is not the case with the chareidi and non-chareidi people in Israel. If it’s forced upon someone to support you, that’s gezel and only serves to drive true chilonim further away from yiddishkeit.

    On a 2nd note, you make the common and untrue assumption that the chareidim are the exclusive group of Jews learning Torah in E’Y. Not only is that not true, it’s a hauty remark that also only drives true chilonim away from yiddishkeit.

    The reason I say “true chilonim” is because there a lots of Jews in E’Y who are religious to different levels than you and you’d classify them as “chilonim” based on looking at them. Meanwhile, some of them learn Torah to a very impressive degree. I know it sounds weird & you may not believe it but don’t be so quick to judge them – that’s one of the things you should have learned in all of your precious Torah learning! The actual number of true chilonim are not that many (significantly less than half of the population according to most polls). And, the ones who are actually ANTI-religious are a small fraction of the people. You would think that there are many more anti-religious here based on their ability to be quite vocal and because many chareidi people claim that almost everyone other than chareidim are anti-Torah. Bottom line: many of the Jews here just aren’t religious yet and that’s sad – let’s stop the self-hating comments and be mekarev them instead of pushing them away further!

  • #927806


    Y me, +1. For sure, as far as the first 2 paragraphs go.

  • #927807


    I stand in solidarity with the brave men who learn in yeshivot hesder, combining service to the Jewish people with delving into the deepest depths of torah. Shaalavim, KBY, Gush, Mevaseret, etc. are wonderful mosdot and each is a true makom torah.

  • #927808

    It certainly is not gezel. The government willingly agreed to give that money. Besides, as was mentioned, the money the government gives is extremely little, not enough to live on, and it isn’t what keeps kollel families going.

    And all that is even before considering what Chareidim financially put into the system.

  • #927809


    Y me,

    This is a horrible argument!

    Then you should have refuted it. You only refuted the mashal, with the assumption that the z’chus of supporting Torah only works for those who do so willingly. The Brisker Rov is more equipped to to know whether this is true than you are. I hadn’t heard this story with the Divrei Yoel and the Rov, but I had heard the same sentiment from R. Chaim Brim, ZT”L. As far as it being gezel, that’s pure sheker, it’s perfectly legal.

    On a 2nd note, you make the common and untrue assumption that the chareidim are the exclusive group of Jews learning Torah in E’Y. Not only is that not true, it’s a hauty remark that also only drives true chilonim away from yiddishkeit.

    OP never said that the learning of non chareidim isn’t a z’chus. You made that up just to condescendingly call the OP haughty.

    Mdd, I’m surprised that you even approved of the first two hate – filled paragraphs. You argument (which I disagree with – the gemara in Yevamos is not a raya bichlal) was tat it’s a chilul Hashem because they don’t understand. You never argued (at least I didn’t notice) that it’s gezel and is not a z’chus. Please reconsider.

    GAW, there’s a lot of room between the loafers and R’ Yitzchok Elchonon. One doesn’t have to be a R’ Yitzchok Elchonon for his Torah to be a z’chus for klal Yisroel. The loafers will indeed have to give din v’cheshbon, but their inability to be otherwise productive is because of the medina’s rules which aren’t designed to accommodate them.

  • #927810

    The medine is the largest recipient of U.S. welfare. It is the ultimate loser, the ultimate golus Jew, the shlepper innkeeper or tailor who doesn’t dare offend the poritz.

  • #927811

    y me

    Rebdoniel – yes, without a doubt I agree with your comment about the hesder yeshivot. They learn tremendous amounts of Torah. My 3rd paragraph above was just to say that “even” people who appear non-religious here also are known to learn Torah. Of course it’s not on the same level as the hesder or chareidi yeshivot but then, we’re not to judge who’s learning is doing a better job at keeping us safe – only Hashem decides that.

    Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite – saying that the government willingly gave the money is not the whole truth. Firstly, the government gives the $$ because the chareidi parties strong-armed them into it. Secondly, the people paying the taxes don’t agree – as can clearly be seen by the recent voting. Thirdly, the initial argument made by shoe store assistant above is that the current situation in Israel is comparable to the story of R’ Yitzchok Elchonon. However, that story explains that both sides fully agreed and R’ Yitzchok Elchonon kept his part of the bargain by learning b’zchut his F.I.L. In contrast, the chareidi mosdot routinely shun the government, the medinah and the soldiers. They don’t make efforts to do anything b’zchut the soldiers – even something simple like saying a mi sheberach for the safety of the soldiers protecting them as they learn! Let’s be crystal clear – I’m not talking about a mi sheberach for the medinah of Israel (chos v’shalom, lo aleinu) – I’m referring to davening a simple mi sheberach specifically for the safety of the foot soldiers who are actually defending us. That’s NOT the government. They won’t even say the words, forget about what’s truly inside their hearts as they’re learning! Simply put, they don’t keep their part of the “partnership” because they don’t see it as a partnership at all – they’re taking money from the Jewish people here (via the government) against their will without sharing their learning z’chuyot with their soldier counterparts – and that, my friend, is gezel.

  • #927812


    What do charedim financially contribute to the state?

  • #927813


    without sharing their learning z’chuyot with their soldier counterparts

    No, not specifically, and “sharing” is the wrong word. It is a z’chus for everyone, including the chayalim, including Yair Lapid, etc.

    and that, my friend, is gezel.

    Probably right about the myfriend part, dead wrong about the gezel part. Are you a Choshen Mishpat dayan to even offer a halachic opinion like that?

  • #927814

    GAW, there’s a lot of room between the loafers and R’ Yitzchok Elchonon. One doesn’t have to be a R’ Yitzchok Elchonon for his Torah to be a z’chus for klal Yisroel. The loafers will indeed have to give din v’cheshbon, but their inability to be otherwise productive is because of the medina’s rules which aren’t designed to accommodate them.

    I agree except for the point of “accommodation”. If the Hesder Yeshivos can manage, so can the Loafers. Those who learn B’amailus are “a z’chus for klal Yisroel”, whether they will become the next Posek or not. Those who loaf don’t stay because they are not accommodated in the workforce, but rather because of societal pressures.

    This comes to the point that akuperma (on the news article re: Rabbi Lipman) feels that the rest of the Israelis need to “accommodate” the Charaidim by making all of the business lunches Kosher by the standards of the Eida, and enforcing a Tznius dress code by law. I hope that we can can agree that such a request would be rejected appropriately. That is not “accommodation” but religious coercion. US business lunches are mostly not Kosher (in my experience). Either I don’t eat or drink only bottled water.

  • #927815


    Yesh v’yesh. If work were an option, some would do so, some would still loaf. Just like here in chu”l.

  • #927816


    MorahRach, What do charedim financially contribute to the state?

    What do IDF soldiers financially contribute to the state?

  • #927817


    DY- im happy someone isnt as lazy as me, and still has the patience to deal with watery arguments. from lessons learned, youll probably get tired of it, but for now, en garde.

  • #927818

    y me

    DaasYochid – I was going to respond to your question to me but then I saw your rediculously idiotic response to MorahRach’s question. Did you really ask “What do IDF soldiers financially contribute to the state?” That’s probably the worst comment I’ve ever seen on this site – and there are lots to choose from!

  • #927819


    DY: War is one of the biggest economic stimulants… 😛

  • #927820


    Noone is on welfare. Ultimately, the ribbono shel olam is the one who decides who has what. he also arranges the shliach. if he wanted the government to turn you down or otherwise reduce benefits to you, he can have it arranged. nobody has a penny more than they should have, unless they excercise their bechira and obtain it illegally.

  • #927821

    ” What do charedim financially contribute to the state?”

    What do chilonim spiritually contribute to the state?

  • #927822


    ” What do charedim financially contribute to the state?”

    What do chilonim spiritually contribute to the state?

    You are making a false assumption that all non-charedim are relgion hating secularist, which is false.

    Many Israels are either Dati Leumi, or Traditional (Sephardim who partially keep stuff, they go to shul, Eat Kosher and go to the Beach after Shabbbos lunch) and similar

  • #927823


    Y me.

    I’ll assume your misunderstanding of my comment was unintentional, so I’ll refrain from answering in kind.

    I was not disparaging a soldier’s contribution to society, I was making the point that one’s contribution to society does not have to be financial.

  • #927824


    Daas Yochid, if someone does not want to be modeh al ha

    emes, he will not. Pharoh is the primary example.

    My point about the Chilul HaShem was that it is Chilul HaShem to squeeze money out of unwilling and protesting people to support oneself in learning. If the raya from Yevamos is not a raya for you, I have nothing to tell you anymore.

    Btw, chevrah, I hold that the Earth is flat! Anybody wants to prove me wrong?

  • #927825


    RE: “What do charedim financially contribute to the state?”

    1. Yeshivos are actually a major industry. Tens of thousands of non-Israelis come to yeshivos from abroad, spending huge amounts on both tuition (which goes to pay Israeli teachers) and living costs. The Israelis understate this industry since they regard anyone in kollel, at least if they are exempt from being drafted, as being idle and unemployed when in fact most kollel people (using American definitions) are employed in the same sense that professors, research fellows and supported graduate students are employed.

    2. A great many hareidim have non-frum community jobs, but under Israeli law many of them are forced to work “under the table” to avoid being conscripted by an army that is for the most part quite hostile (except for some specialized units that are aimed for hareidim). If the army accomodated hareidi lifestyle and halachic interpretation, employment would be increasing “in the open.”

    3. Whenever someone actually addresses the exclusion of hareidim from the mainstream economy, the hilonim scream “religious coercion” as in “What do you mean I can’t touch my female coworkers” or “Why can’t we have company meetings at my favorite restaurant so I can have my beloved pork chops” or “Why can’t we schedule our work schedules to match when the markets are open in America”, etc. Along with the fact the army has no serious manpower shortages, this suggest the move for “conscription” is solely motivated by hatred and fear of a growing hareidi population.

  • #927826


    Mdd, so please explain your raya. I don’t see it, but maybe you can explain it, instead of using rhetoric.

  • #927827

    3. Whenever someone actually addresses the exclusion of hareidim from the mainstream economy, the hilonim scream “religious coercion” as in “What do you mean I can’t touch my female coworkers” or “Why can’t we have company meetings at my favorite restaurant so I can have my beloved pork chops” or “Why can’t we schedule our work schedules to match when the markets are open in America”, etc.

    This is religious coercion, but not the first point.

    Point #1: This would be a sexual harassment case in the US (unwanted touching), and should be in Israel as well. Nothing to do with religion.

    Point #2: The company can serve whatever food they want. No one is forcing you to eat. I have sat & drank water (from the bottle) while my co-workers ate pulled pork (and yes, it smells really good). That is called life & standing up for your beliefs. Forcing the Arab or Israeli to eat Badatz (because you know that is where you are going, Rabbanut is not good enough) is religious coercion.

    Point 3: If a company needs to be open when the US markets are open that is their right. No one is claiming that McDonalds has to “accommodate” me by no longer serving cheeseburgers. That is religious coercion.

  • #927828

    Finally (for akuperma), I would like to see Charaidim complaining to the international human rights orgs, and getting a good lesson in Eisav Sonei Es Ya’akov. Hopefully they wont then require a lesson in the manner of Jacob de Haan (because the Zionists will do it if pushed. They’ve done it before.)

  • #927829

    y me

    DaasYochid – you do bring up a great point, a person’s contribution to society isn’t limited to finances. The problem is that MorahRach was asking for clarification about Kiryas Yoelite’s statement that chareidim are contributing to the economy. She was not disparaging chareidim but asking for specifics. Your comment asking about the soldiers’ financial contribution rubbed me wrong because it doesn’t answer the original question and (seemed like) a dig at the soldiers who give significantly more than money.

    Having said that, I do think the soldiers give financially in many ways. They do their jobs for the country for a very small salary. They don’t just fight but many of them also work in medicine, dentistry, engineering, hi-tech, food, etc – all while in the army. What’s interesting is that they often take those skills with them into the market place when they’ve finished their army service. All of those jobs – both inside & outside of the army – contribute financially to the system. There are other ways that the soldiers contribute financially but that’s for another time.

    Now, while I’m on the topic let me take us on a tangent – I’ve read comments multiple times claiming that the university students are given all kinds of stipends & funding but this isn’t fair to the chareidim who are learning in yeshiva but get less money. I’ve repeatedly read here that to be fair, the government must give the chareidim the same. So, this argument is wrong for several reasons. Firstly, the chareidim get funding for much longer than univ. students. Secondly, the avreichim get lots of money from the government in many different ways besides just the stipends – the yeshivot are given money to use for itself, they wheel & deal to get cheaper housing (I’m seeing it 1st hand), they get huge arnona tax breaks, etc, etc, etc. This funding is not available to univ. students and continues for yrs & yrs. Thirdly (& possibly most importantly), the univ. students take their education & start working to improve the economy – that’s the only reason it makes sense for a government to get involved with giving people stipends!!! The avreichim are much less likely to return financially to the economy as the univ students do.

    That means – you have to take into consideration the huge kiddush Hashem that the government has been financially supporting Torah learning for 60+ yrs with no expectation of financial return! Had the chareidi movement expressed their thanks in a kavodic way over the past 60+ yrs, I can’t imagine where we would be now as the Jewish people in our Homeland!

  • #927830


    DY and others, relax. I was actually asking because someone was trying to make a point about all the chareidim contribute by learning ( not arguing) ” and that’s even before what the chareidim contribute financially”. I was asking not bating.

    And every single IDF soldier goes on to work therefor contributing financially. I am not discussing my opinion one way or another but that was a baseless statement.

  • #927831



    you really outdid yourself on this last post of yours..

    so now you’re saying that the charaidim better stop complaining or else the Zionists will start murdering them in cold bold as they did to Jacob De Haan HYD ??

    wow!!to exhibit such blind bitter venomous hate toward the charaidim,nebach….

    and the mods let this through ???

  • #927832


    “against their will without sharing their learning z’chuyot with their soldier counterparts – and that, my friend, is gezel. “

    Many government programs are not according to the will of the majority of people. Eventually those decisions may be reviewed, as is happening in Israel now.

  • #927833


    “If the army accomodated hareidi lifestyle and halachic interpretation, employment would be increasing “in the open.””

    What do you mean by hareidi lifestyle?

    Whose halachic interpretation?

  • #927834



    Sorry for taking your question out of context. I’ve learned to address my comments to the post or poster to which/whom it’s addressed (and I remember to do that most the time). There were several long posts between yours and the one you addressed.

    My point was not that IDF soldiers don’t eventually contribute financially; it was that there are contributions which are more important than financial.

  • #927835


    Just wondering, has anyone imagined what E”Y would be like if Charedim had total control of the government?

    If everyone were allowed to learn in Kollel and joining the army would be optional? Short of Moshiach coming, how long would such a government last?

  • #927836

    Chareidim never sought total control of government.

    Furthermore, prior to the arrival of Zionists in EY, Chareidim in EY all DID in fact learn in Kollel, pretty much. That was always their lifestyle. Sure, money was always short, but they were happy with what they had. That, in fact, was why they chose to live in EY (before the zionists were even thinking of Uganada.)

  • #927837


    The Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite,

    Chareidim never sought total control of government.

    Chareidim wouldnt dream of it, they cant run an army. Ain somchin al hanes.

    Furthermore, prior to the arrival of Zionists in EY, Chareidim in EY all DID in fact learn in Kollel, pretty much.

    Prior to the arrival of Zionists in EY, our ancestors were gassed by the millions and had no where to go.

  • #927838

    I see. So what you are saying is that since the Nazis gassed millions of our ancestors we ought to drop some Kollel learning.

    Chalk one victory up to Hitler.

  • #927839



    So what you are saying is that since the Nazis gassed millions of our ancestors we ought to drop some Kollel learning.

    Since the Nazis gassed millions of our ancestors, and Arabs would happily do the same, we badly need a militarily strong EY, so we can continue learning and not worry about being gassed.

    Do we cross the street in front of a moving car because if we learn and Daven, Hashem will save us?

  • #927840


    There was no Kollel learning before approximatly the 1950’s or 1960’s. It did not exist in Europe

  • #927841

    The Israeli military will not get stronger than it currently is if Kolleleit are made to leave Kollel and enlist in the Army. This point has been said by their own Generals.

  • #927842


    Daas Yochid, the only reason I broght that Gemorah down was to show that we have to be very concerned about causing Chillul HaShem(c^v). The Givyonim’s (and their possible sympathizers) ta’anah was a far-off one. Yet, the Gemorah says we had to be worried about it.

    As far as the etzem zach goes — I wrote enough. See my posts. Also, keep in mind that it is not only that they don’t understand the inyan — they are not mechuyav al pi Halochah(or otherwise) to support all the Chareidim in kollel.

  • #927843



    Nobody’s advocating disbanding the army. The chareidim are not needed in the army, bur we can use all the learning we can get, and they’re trying to draft yeshiva bochurim.

  • #927845

    The only reason Arabs would happily gas “us” is because of the medine.

    The tzioinim and their terrorism is what caused the British to restrict entry into EY during the churban – they could not manage Arab anger against the tzioinim. The British and the Arabs were more than willing to grant Jews a national home – but not a state.

    I cannot buy up land in Bronx slums, set insurance fires, use the insurance money to build a KJ-type settlement, and then secede from the US. I’d end up in Oytisville if I did it for profit, or Pilgrim State if I did it for “ideological” reasons.

    That is exactly what the tzioinim did – they bought land, which was just fine – but the sellers and the recognized government of that time expected them to live in peace and respect others (as the old Yishuv did, which is why Reb Amram Bloy ZYA was able to acquire plenty of land from Arabs to create room for decent bnei Torah to live). Instead of using insurance money as my putative Creedmoorer did, the tzioinim used schnorred money from the Rothschilds and others to create their chilul Hashem in Eretz haKoidesh.

    The same people who protest when some yeshiva kids are accused of making noise and keep neighbors up are the same people who condone and glorify the actions of an illegitimate state that truly antagonizes its legitimate neighbors. The “Israelis” and their secular culture are no more legitimate than the “Palestinians” are. If the “Palestinians” ever lay down their arms, they will conquer the medine without a shot by demanding one state/one person/one vote.

    When that happens, I will move to EY and vote Aguda, which, along with Shas, will have the majority of Jewish seats in the new state’s parliament. I would much rather live under Salem Fayyad than under Yair Lapid or even Bungling Bibi.

  • #927846


    So Bear, after confusing fantasy for fact you’d “much rather live under Salem Fayyad than under Yair Lapid or even Bungling Bibi”? Right on. You’ll have plenty of homes to choose from. Thousands of Palestinians have left their autonomous territories to crowd into Jerusalem city limits and live under those vile “tzioinim.”

  • #927847

    mogold: Fool. That was a warning (which only a fool would ignore), not a threat. And it doesn’t come from me. If you don’t think the Zionists would do it, you have your head in the sand. They have killed for less.

  • #927848



    I would much rather live under Salem Fayyad than under Yair Lapid or even Bungling Bibi.

    “Fayyad presented several conditions to becoming prime minister, including that Hamas would recognise Israel, which Hamas declined”.

    You might like the policies of Salem Fayyad, but because hes less Anti Israel than the general Arab populace and most Arab leaders, he wont ever come to power. Wishful thinking.

  • #927849


    How was his f-i-l able to live before Reb Elchonon married his daughter? I don’t mean this facetiously but isn’t it possible that the f-i-l was at an advanced age and just happened to die at that time?

  • #927850


    To all those who imagine that wishing something were so makes it so: there was no medina in 1929 in Chevron.

  • #927851


    dolphina- theres actually an interesting maaseh about that. cant recall exactly, but it has to do with one of the rabbanim from then talking to the shiek then and being told that the frumme dont bother him, its those trying to make a state and statement. that made him mad. after the massacre ,r”l, the rav went back to him and asked why the bochurim were killed if the arabs had no issues with them. the sheik basically conveyed that it was unfortunate and didnt have an answer, but his issue was still with the zionists. isnt that interesting?

  • #927852


    How was his f-i-l able to live before Reb Elchonon married his daughter? I don’t mean this facetiously but isn’t it possible that the f-i-l was at an advanced age and just happened to die at that time?

    To answer the first question, maybe so that he could support his R’ Yitzchak Elchonon in the future, and maybe because his time wasn’t yet up.

    To answer your second question, of course anything’s possible, a story isn’t an iron-clad proof. The timing was pretty good though, and nobody is creating a brand new idea, that Torah is “eitz chaim hee lamachazikim bah” (a tree of life for those who support it)* from a story. Rather, the story fits right in with and illustrates this basic concept in Yiddishkeit.

    *Yes, I know that’s a drash, and the simple pshat is “for those who grasp onto it”.

  • #927853


    Bear, twisting the facts as usual? The British got the mandate from the League of Nations to create a Jewish state there!!

    Btw, an Arab state would never pay to keep all those Chareidim in kollel forever.

    Stop the vile Brisk-Satmar-inspired propaganda!

  • #927854

    “Btw, an Arab state would never pay to keep all those Chareidim in kollel forever.”

    At best they would extort money from other yidden to allow them to stay as beggars (Dhimma), and let them be as a source of income. At worst they would line them up and shoot (gas chambers are so 20th century), after giving the women over to the fighters as prizes until they are “used up” (like the Tutsis).

  • #927855

    mdd: 1) The United Nations, not the League of Nations, gave the mandate for a State. 2) The Arabs, like the Turks before never did, would not attempt to draft the Yidden.

  • #927856


    Lit.KJ., Eretz Yisroel was a part of the Ottoman Empire before the WWI. After that war the League gave a mandate to the British Empire. The were supposed to help build a Jewish state there. That was the mandate.

    Secondly, for the n-th time, the Arabs would have almost all of the Chareidim working. No subsidies from the government. Period.

    They would not draft the Jews as they consider them unworthy. Btw, Iran does!!

  • #927857

    The League gave the British a mandate to administer Palestine. The League never told Britain to create a Jewish state (as you said.) The British later issued the Balfour Declaration to that effect on their own volition (after Zionist lobbying the British government), not based on a League mandate. The U.N. authorized a Jewish state.

  • #927858


    I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind thinks that Jews are safer without a Jewish land they can call their own. Theyre just fatalists and think if Jews are meant to suffer and be killed, so be it. Thats not Hishtadlus. Like standing in front of a racing car while saying Tehillim. Not wise.

  • #927859


    I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind thinks that Jews are safer without a Jewish land they can call their own.

    And I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind thinks that Jews are safest (b’derech hateva) in Israel with an almost nuclear Iran wanting to wipe out Sonei Yisrael.

  • #927860

    Thanks for all the support guys.

    Just a couple of points.

    I didn’t plan this to turn into another zionist bashing blog, I just wanted to remind you guys basic hashkapha, which is true and undetabale, and agreed on by gedoilim from all circles, that toiora learning protects and enriches more than any physical histadlus,

    If anyone needs any further proofs, what about kol haoilam niozn bishvil chanina beni?

    BTW, kollel learning existed way before 1970, for example both R’ elchono Wasserman and the ponevezher rov leanrt in the chofetz chayim famous kodshim koillel. In one of r’ matisyohu’s sefrim he proves that even during the days of the gemoro kollel earning was normal. [the big difference is in the proportion of earners to earners,but it is untrue to say it never existed.]

    I have no idea which koillel is the longest around, but the gateshead koillel in england has definitely passed a century.

  • #927861

    I think Jews would have been much safer had the idea of an independent state, as opposed to a homeland, not came about. If the Balfour Declaration would have been interpreted that way, something could have been worked out with the Arabs, who really did not mind Jews until the tzioinim came along and decided that land they bought gave them sovereign rights.

    While I think Jacob de Haan HY”D was a strange fellow who was not capable of doing very much, the tzioinim so feared the possibility of someone negotiating for a peaceful Jewish enclave under foreign rule that they killed him.

    That being said, I favor national service for charedim, in a charedi framework that is open to all.

    We will be the worst nightmare for the tzioinim once we truly enter their society and become as productive as we are in chutz la’aretz. (Sorry, Zdad – we are not all on welfare, and some of us employ plenty of less frum Jews including veterans of the IDF who left the tzioini paradise for the US and Canada.) Since the real extremists will not enter, they’ll be marginalized and the medine, if it lasts much longer, will see a huge wave of chazara betshuva as those who are not leftists learn what Torah is really about.

    Then, it will either be medina ke’halacha (NOT medinat halacha as that is for Moshiach) – or halcha hamedina. Halcha hamedina could mean a binational one-man, one-vote state where the remaining chilonim would pack up and leave, as most Jews would care about living in Eretz Yisroel rather than pretending to run medinat “Israel.”

    And this is why I expect the status quo to continue, until Moshiach comes or Reb Yoilish’s prediction of a peaceful dismantlement comes to pass.

  • #927862

    The actions of a band of RZ baryoinim at the Kosel is what caused the riots in 1929. That decent sheikh and some of the decent Arabs who had lived in peace with the Old Yishuv yidden in Chevron could not control the hordes who were already confused by the tzioinim and chose to follow radicals rather than moderates. They were misled to believe that the tzionim had designs on the mosque, and they reacted accordingly.

  • #927863

    I don’t want to get involved in the hashkafic issues here but just to point out a factual inaccuracy – Gateshead Kollel has not been around for anywhere near a Century let alone passed it. 65 years is nearer the mark.

  • #927864

    Gateshead kollel was opened by a talmid of the chofatzchayim, a r’ dovid dryan, at latest in the 1920’s.

    It was later headed by haga’on R’ dessler zatza”l

  • #927865

    R’ Dovid Dryan set up Gateshead Yeshiva, not Kollel. The Kollel is post-war and Rav Dessler was the one and only Rosh Kollel they have ever had (they have a committee now). I actually know the grandson of one of the original parnesim of the kollel.

    Let’s even say for arguments sake that you’re right and it was opened in the 20’s that’s still less than the 100+ years you originally claimed:

    gateshead koillel in england has definitely passed a century.

  • #927866


    Toi, regarding Chevron – I have a bit of a connection and so know a bit about it. My Great uncle was a talmid there at the time, and he happened to be sick the weekend of the massacre, at home with his family in Yerushalayim. His fellow students were murdered.

    There is clear, testimonial and documentary evidence that the Chevron Massacre was incited and initiated as part of a campaign by Haj Amin Al Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and perhaps the most anti-Semitic Arab leader in history. He was a Jew hater before he was against Zionists. He spent the War in Berlin as a guest of Hitler (Y’SH) and personally mobilized the SS Bosnian Muslim Division. His rhetoric is filled with Jew hatred. He hired Nazi fugitives to train and lead Muslim irregulars after the war.

  • #927867


    Zionism was established by 1898. No doubt the Mufti’s hatred was egged by Zionism.

  • #927868


    So, Eisav soneh es Yaakov only applies to Charedim, like Weberman, Rubashkin, etc. But when it comes to Zionists, then the reason why the arabs hate us is because of the Zionists??

    It’s really sad when you read comments here from people who clearly could use some proper education in the subject and not the bits and pieces they pick up in yeshivah.

  • #927869


    I agree with you truthsharer 100%. It’s sad to see how many people here seem to forget the basics that we’re taught in Tanach and in our history. Akuperma goes on and on in every single post on this site about how wonderful the arabs are to us. It actually scares me that someone can actually believe some of the things he’s posted. The facts of our history as a people show that we cannot rely on the benefocence of the nations of the world.

    We all know that it’s Hashem that will protect us but we must still do our hishtadlus to protect ourselves in a realistic way. We’re not allowed to play a game of putting our lives in the hands of the arabs, knowing full well that they would murder every last one of us but then say that Hashem will protect us. Purim is coming up and we see that the Jewish people actually had to do their hishtadlus to survive & win.

    The arabs (and all anti-Jewish people) hate us because we are Jewish, NOT because of zionism or anything else we do. That’s the oldest & saddest thing from the Jewish people over the centuries – the ones who blame ourselves for being hated because of something we did to bring it on.

  • #927870


    It actually scares me that anyone can be in denial about the truths akuperma and others post.

    ALL goyim hate us because we’re Jewish, Arab and Christian. But the Arabs were egged to extra violence against us by the Zionists.

  • #927871


    To make an analogy to dogs (and in this analogy the Americans are unusually friendly and intelligent canines), the Arabs are and have for most of our history been fairly moderate as beasts go. As long you don’t threaten them, or boss them around, or get in their way – they will probably like you. Around World War I we started pulling their tails and they got very annoyed. We went along with the Brits in double crossing the Arabs after the war ; at first we worked with them for an autonomous Jewish homeland within the large state the Arabs were offered for helping the Allies in the war, but by the mid-20s the zionists were firmly in charge of the Yishua and were supporting the Brits – frankly we are lucky that most Arabs didn’t flock to the Germans in WWII since it might have changed the outcome but the Arabs generally realized Hitler would eventually turn on them as well – the “Mufti” tried but couldn’t find any support.

    Based on past experiences, in a post-zionist Eretz Yisrael (i.e. after the haredim become a minority and are willing to compromise on sovereignity in return for peace), the Arabs won’t object to Jews learning Torah (as long as we cover our own bills, and the most frum of the hareidim already do). They won’t draft us (under Islam, Jews didn’t have the right to bear arms). As long as we give them political control and don’t try to impose alien values on them, they will tolerate us. That has been their past pattern and there is no reason to think the past won’t repeat.

    We could be active economically, certainly to a much greater extent than under the zionists, as long as we don’t get too bossy. We have only limited political rights meaning we’ld have as much control of the country as we do under the zionists. The legal system would be no more rigged against than it is today, but they would respect communal autonomy.

    The hilonim would be the big losers. The infamous sort of tourism that Tel Aviv prides itself on would be banned. You wouldn’t have a Jewish girl at the Miss World contest, nor an Israeli diplomat sat the UN. Pork breeders would be in trouble. While the Muslims share a belief in a welfare state, they also have a belief in not running an economy based on printing money, so no more welfare state to sponge off of.

    We should tolerate the zionists treating us as “second class citizens” as long as they don’t do something too oppressive, such as drafting yeshiva students or women. But if they did, they will be approaching a tipping point where it be time to consider going from being second class Israelis to second class Palestinians.

  • #927872

    No offence meant, but aren’t some of you people basically asking about yediya and bechira. I mean, if halacha be’yoduo she’eisov soinei es ya’akoiv, then how does that add up with anyone’s responsibility for any consequences starting with any goyim?

    Please remeber that churban habayis was also broght about by bar kamtza angering the roman empire

  • #927873


    It’s a common myth that the Arabs were all friendly with us until Zionism. Contrary to Satmar/NK, the Arabs were not the best people to be subjugated under.

  • #927874


    Certainly it was far better to be subjugated under the Arabs (as unpleasent as it was) than to have been subjugated under the Christians.

  • #927875


    Akuperma, drei nit ken kup, most Chareidim can not cover their own bills without outside help.

  • #927876

    y me

    Not sure if I should laugh or cry! Akuperma’s vision of the relationship between Arabs and Jews is way off base. Even the Arabs don’t want to live under Arab rule!! Let’s see, hmmm… you know, I can’t think of any moslem countries that treat their own people well (besides for maybe Turkey). They murder their own people in droves, they supress their rights and they are all-around not nice guys (is that PC enough for you?)

    The Jews in every single moslem country have been murdered for centuries and this has NOTHING to do with Israel and zionism. The Jews in Yemen, Iran, Iraq, etc number only a few – they obediently live their lives in ghettos (sometimes under the “protection” of the moslem governments) until every so often there’s a pogrom or attack that murders a few of them. The thought that you can blame this on zionism or the idea that you can suggest that the Arabs will be good to the Jews is… I just don’t know if I should laugh or cry.

    Oh, akuperma (et al) – maybe y’all should pick up a Koran while you’re learning in Yeshiva D’Palestine and learn the “posuk” about the moslems killing every last Jew. “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.” I know that you want to point to the once in a while where Jews did successfully live in relative peace with the moslems. However, they’ve always been quite direct when they say that they will fulfill their quest to kill all Jews and dominate the world when they come to power. Until then, they live in relative peace so that they can make their way into power.

    Would you like some more info about the Moslem Arabs’ feelings? Check out some more of their p’sukim in the Koran here (or google “koran verses on killing jews”): http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

    Just a quick, well-placed quote from that site: “Other than the fact that Muslims haven’t killed every non-Muslim under their domain, there is very little else that they can point to as proof that theirs is a peaceful, tolerant religion. Where Islam is dominant (as in the Middle East and Pakistan) religious minorities suffer brutal persecution with little resistance. Where Islam is in the minority (as in Thailand, the Philippines and Europe) there is the threat of violence if Muslim demands are not met.”

  • #927877


    There is no doubt at all that the Arabs became 1,000 times more violent to the Jews ever since the Zionists announced their intention to make Palestine into a Jewish State (around the time of the Balfour Declaration) and especially since a State was actually established.

  • #927878

    y me

    I’m quite sure you are right Confucious. Certainly the Arabs went back into their Koran and added these hateful p’sukim in at around the time of the Balfour Declaration. Before that the Arabs loved the Jews and I’m sure they would have never murdered millions of their own people and 100,000s of Jews over the past centuries. In fact, I’m positive that the only reason the moslems blew up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon was because of the zionists. Heck, we all know that Hashem’s Torah doesn’t tell us anything about the hate that the Bnei Yishmael have for us. All of those theories and silly divrei Torah about ma’aseh Avot siman l’banim are a joke. Everyone knows that the Jews can and should live peacefully under the governance of the wonderful brotherly Arabs.

  • #927879


    Don’t be foolish. Goyim hate yidden, period. They always did. It’s in all their religious books, etc. We are living in golus, and this is the case anywhere, any place. That being said, some goyim were far more murderous to us than others. The Arabs, for 2,000 years up to the early 20th Century with the advent of Zionism, were FAR FAR better to yidden living in their lands than their muderous Christian counterparts. The Europeans, from the time of the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash through all the crusades through all the blood libels through the recent holocaust in the 20th century, were FAR FAR more deadly and murderous against us than the Arabs ever were. For most of history we lived in relative peace and properity in the Arab lands, especially as compared to our dismal living conditions at the same time in the non-Arab lands, most notably Europe. All this, of course, do not negate the times the Arabs have been hurting us even prior to the advent of Zionism.

  • #927880

    y me

    I actually do agree with you about some of this. The christians persecuted us quite severly in the past. That doesn’t mean anything about your other point though. The different nations take turns bashing our skulls in and now it’s the moslems. That’s the point – it’s not zionism, it’s just their turn. That doesn’t mean we should let it happen. You need to recognize the fact that right now the christians are relatively good to us but the moslems are not the ones you want ruling over you. That’s why I cringe at akuperma’s and Confucious’ comments that we should live peacefully under the moslems and the only reason they don’t like us is because of zionism.

    As for me, I choose to wake up and smell the galut. That’s why I don’t think we should live under the rule of the christians OR the moslems. Certainly akuperma will jump on the fact that it’s better than living under the horrible zionists who are all anti-Torah. He’s wrong! The beginnings of the zionist movement were anti-religion but apparently akuperma has missed the past 60+ years of it. There have been a few changes once the frum Jews finally woke up. There are wonderful things, religious things going on here now! I just heard a radio ad today on a horrible zionist radio station reminding us all that there’s a daf yomi shiur every morning at 5:00 AM. This is a beautiful country and it’s our job to make it better.

    Just a note – the satmar shita on the state of Israel is actually the minority – I mean the original Satmar rebbe’s opinion on the topic that the current satmar movement bases their rhetoric on. The rest of the Torah shitot on the topic may or may not have agreed with the Jews coming back to Israel to create a state but none of them would advocate the extreme things that the Satmar do now that it’s here. So, it’s here and it’s time for all Jews to come here and make it a better place.

  • #927881


    Y Me, I am not saying the Moslems are right, but it is a fact that the Arabs became much more violent towards the Jews after the advent of Zionism. Todeh al ha’emes!

  • #927882

    I don’t have much time to post here now, but I want to make it very clear that the Jewish homeland was NOT supposed to be under self-rule. Direct British rule was what was called for, at least at the beginning.

    I do not want to live in EY under the rule of a bunch of baryoinim whose city, Tel Aviv, is literally a new Sdoim, a capital of M”Z, organized crime, and many other social ills. If I do live there, or even am not careful when visiting, I end up financially supporting this abomination, so that living in EY is a mitzvah sheba beavaira.

    I am sure Nachum Segal and other Jewish radio hosts broadcast the times of shiurim in the US when their organizers pass on the information. Meanwhile, the radio stations that broadcast such info in EY are hounded by the communications authority of the medine.

    The medine is like a chozzer – you see its kosher feet, but the rest of it is chozzer treyf and a complete abomination as it is doing its best to negate the kedusha of EY and turn Jews into a nation like any other. It will fail economically, socially and morally as Hashem’s messengers, the nations of the world, turn against it with the BDS movement that will soon spread so large stores and government entities upon whom the medine’s industries depend will stop dealing with them. That will force the best scientists and entrepreneurs to leave (as many are doing quietly anyway), and the huge real estate bubble in EY will burst, so you’ll see plenty of Hebrew University graduates flipping pizza on 13th Ave, faking frumkeit to get even the most menial job from Yidden who hire them out of sympathy.

    And why? Because that state is a loaf of bread on a Seder table, or a chozzer on the mizbeach. If Jews lived in EY bekedusha ubetehora, even autonomously, the world would respect us.

  • #927883


    At various times in history, Muslim leaders felt they needed the Jews for their economic acumen and temporarily treated them well provided they accepted second-class status. These times were the exception to the rule. Intolerance and forced conversion were more commonly the lot of the dhimmi Jew.

    Hashem yerachaim.

  • #927884

    oh brother

    mdd – In research, it’s well known that association doesn’t infer cause & effect. Many things changed in the world at that time, not just the beginings of the zionistic movement. In case anyone doesn’t recall, at the same time there were 2 world wars, the collapse of several empires, the creation of “mandates” to control the lands that were won, the industrial revolution, women’s rights, freeing of slaves, the christian religion layed off on their conquest of the world, and a few other things. Most importantly, the moslems in their Koran and their history say it the best themselves. The moslem agression (read: murder and control of everyone under their control) begand over 1,400 years ago! Read here for a proper history (not some YWN commenter’s self-created version).

    No links. Sorry.

  • #927885

    y me

    I agree with Wolfman. I’m not sure where some people come up with their naive comments.

    As for TheBear, the things you said are scary. I’m still kinda hoping you don’t really believe the things you wrote.

    It sounds to me like you’ve paskened that “living in EY is a mitzvah sheba beavaira.” Perhaps you should share your version of halacha with the gedolei yisrael who live in EY. For every abomination here, there are way more in chu”l but you’ve conveniently decided to ignore that because it doesn’t fit into your justification argument as to why you don’t move to the holy land that Hashem promised to the Avot & Imahot.

    As for my comment about the radio ad of a daf yomi shiur every day at 5am – I meant that the radio program BROADCASTS the daf yomi shiur every morning at 5! Again, this is a regular radio program that’s run by the “zionist regime.” Nachum Segal’s programs announce wonderful events and shiurim. They play heartwarming Jewish music. They even have divrei Torah sometimes. But you can’t begin to compare that to a daily daf yomi broadcast to the entire country! Oh, by the way, Nachum Segal is a religious zionist!

    The rest of the stuff that you wrote is just drivel. Full of hate for wonderful religious people here who are building a home for themselves full of Torah. Talk to the meraglim and they’ll hopefully be able to remind you about why you’re not allowed to say loshon hara about our land (and people). If you don’t like something that’s going on here – in Tel Aviv or anywhere else – then come here and make it better! Not by throwing rocks or insults but by doing something constructive to be mekarev the rechokim. Your comments do nothing to improve the ills of the secular in Tel Aviv but rather drives them further away. I kind of remember my mommy telling me “if you can’t say something nice then don’t say anything at all.”

  • #927886


    Well said, mdd (last comment) and TheBear. Yasher Koach.

  • #927887


    MorahRach, What do charedim financially contribute to the state?

    actually, tax wise, pecenagewise there are more chareidim working than there are chilonim.

    even those lucky bnei torah that are learning, they are paying alot more of their monthly meager income to food taxes etc, than the average chiloni family. they have larger families and just to feed them costs them huge amounts. not to mention the private school systems that save the country from supporting them.

    please, enough “shtuyot”. the issue here is not about money.



  • #927888


    Bear, WRONG! The British were supposed to eventually create an independent Jewish state there.

    Anyhow, what’s the weather in Teheran?

  • #927889


    To mutche: I’m going to bet that you have absolutely no source whatsoever for your claimed “facts.” You say that “percentage-wise there are more chareidim working than there are chilonim.” To that I’ll say “Did you know that 97.4% of all statistics are just made up on the spot?” I’m gonna call “bluff” because you’re incorrect – by far.

    As for your claim that chareidi families have larger families and therefore pay more “of their monthly meager income to food taxes etc, than the average chiloni family.” OK, so apparently you don’t understand some basics of economics (that’s one of those things you need to learn in school in order to get a good job).

    Firstly, there are more working chareidim here than admit to it. They often work in cash or somehow off the books – this means that they’re NOT paying any income taxes at all so take them out of the equation.

    Secondly, the ones that do work on the books often do in fact have meager incomes (as you pointed out). That means that they don’t meet the threshold for paying income taxes at all so take that next group out of the equation. Many others just make it into the lowest tax brackets which don’t cover the expense of the services that they use.

    Thirdly, you complain (assumingly on their behalf) that they only earn a meager income. Problem with your argument is that they created that problem! In fact, now that they’ve been creating that problem for quite a few years now, they refuse to help change the situation even to help their own tzibur!

    Fourthly, the VAT that is paid on food or other things here is 17%. In contrast, the income tax brackets for most non-chareidi perople are significantly higher than that (sometimes double or more!). There’s also bituach leumi (social security taxes). That means that the non-chareidi families are paying the 17% VAT *on top of* the income taxes & bituach leumi they already pay from their salaries.

    Fifthly, tuition for chareidi schools are often heavily susidized here unlike in the US. Your comment about the chareidi private schools somehow saving a lot of money is bizaare and wrong. It makes me think you don’t live here or certainly don’t know the reality of what’s going on here.

    I think the basic problem comes down to this – the chareidi tzibur (especially the leadership) base all of their calculations on some kind of magical mathematics where everything is free except for the things you actually buy (housing, food, clothes). The truth is, while we all hate taxes, they actually do pay for the things we use on a daily basis. Healthcare, roads, public lighting, police, garbage collection, water and electrical infrastructure, parks, airport, municipal and national government, defense, kitzvat yeladim, disability coverage, etc, etc, etc. If you are a family who lives here (even if you’re not a citizen) then you use most or all of these services. If you don’t pay full taxes then you’re NOT FINANCIALLY CONTRIBUTING TO THE COUNTRY. Instead, you are taking tremendous amounts of money from the country.

  • #927891


    RBS.Jew: You are completely missing and negating the fact that the Israeli government does not allow and makes it illegal for Chareidim to work until age 28. So for the first 10 or so years of their marriage they are not allowed to legally work, on the books. Why is this point so hard for you to accept and acknowledge?? THIS is the reason so many Chareidim work off the books or can’t work at all!!

    Tell your friends to fix that law to allow Chareidim to work without Army service (and, no, we won’t accept mandatory Army) and you will see many many more Chareidim working on the books and paying taxes. As far as your demand that we get better paying jobs, that is a non-starter. We are entitled to earn a meager living and lifestyle if that is our choice. And our education choices, regarding limudei kodesh and/or secular studies (or lack thereof) is fully our choice and the government cannot and we will not allow them to interfere with our educational decisions for our children, as is our fundamental and natural right.

  • #927892


    shein, I would like to truly thank you for every word you just posted. It sums up the problem so perfectly that I couldn’t have done it better myself. In fact, had I even tried to post the same exact words as you just did, the moderators would never had posted my comment because it would have been considered “anti-chareidi.”

    By the way, just recognize that the government of Israel does NOT make it illegal for chareidi people to work before age 28. In fact, it’s the chareidi movement that has created that dilema by refusing to take part in the country in which they reside. They refuse to keep accept that dinei d’malchusa dina. No one forces chareidim to refuse to join the army OR TO DO A SHEIRUT LEUMI program! How many times does someone on this site need to point out that a sheirut leumi program is CHESED? As was said before – the chareidi tzibur would have been much better off putting all of their efforts into making chareidi chesed projects into acceptable sheirut leumi programs. They also should have spent their time and effort creating better army programs for themselves. Instead, they (you) will continue down this path of hatred toward the government and people who build and secure this country in which you live and learn.

  • #927893


    Confucious – “no doubt” you write. But you don’t know. I suggest you actually read some of Haj Amin’s words. Do the research before you talk. I have. Maybe read transcripts of his broadcasts from Nazi Germany. Maybe read some of the interviews he did with Collins and LaPierre in O Jerusalem. Maybe read about the passage in the muslim Hadith he often quoted which talks about the muslim mahdi not coming until every Jew is murdered, when even the Gharkad tree, according to muslim tradition a “tree” which loves the Jews, will say “O muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!”

    So, were there Zionists in the time the hadith were were written and transcribed? In the 9th century CE?

    Do some research before you respond.

  • #927894


    Yichusdic, the Arabs got definetely much more violent once they had learnt of the Jewish state project. Be modeh al ha’emesl! It is a simple historical fact. Yes, yes, I know it says all kinds if things in their literature. They were not that busy being mekayem them though before 1918 when they hopped that the Jews wanted to restore their state in Eretz Yisroel. That’s when the fury was unleashed.

  • #927895


    I rarely agree with Confucious, but here he is right on the money. Again, I do not justify the Arab behaviour, but it is a product of the state restoration.

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