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YWN Coffee Room » Eretz Yisroel

Who Is Really On Welfare? Basic Hashkafa!

(93 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by Shoe store assistant
  • Latest reply from mdd

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  1. Shoe store assistant
    boki but not a lamdan

    There ia a well known story involving the famed Kovno Rov, HaGa'on R' Yitzchok Elchonon Spektor.

    When R' Yitzchok Elchonon was a young married man, he was supported by his father in law. As his name slowly spread as an emerging posek, he was offered numerous jobs to become a Rov of a town, which he continuously turned down. Eventually, in desperation, the Kovno kehilla asked him why he was refusing their offer. R' Yitzchok Elchonon explained that as his f-i-l was supporting him, he felt it unsuitable to assume a job as Rov. Not to be outdone, the leaders of the kovno kehilla turned to his father in law, and asked him if he is bothered if his son in law leaves for kovno. With his f-i-l's bracha, R' yitzchok elchonon left the small town where he was, and set out to kovno. Yet as the wagon started out on the way, a pair of horseriders came chasing with an urgent message - R' yitzchok elchonon's father in law was no longer alive.

    One can never know who is really supporting who. To everyone it amy have looked like that his father in law was supportng him, but in reality the opposite was true. His father in law was only alive in his zechus.

    With all this fuss over amsallem, and lapid, and their various cronies, we are forgetting one important point. The chareidim are supporting the chiloinim, not the other way round.

    When the brisker rov was told that the satmar rebbe had said that the israeli victory was due to ma'aseh soton, he famously answered that they have a zechus for allowing yeshiva bochurim to learn. Because any victory, or economic succes in e"y is only because of the learners.

    If they draft isralei's into the army, they will npo longer win any wars - despite the larger army. If they stop supporting yeshivois, the national debt will only grow, and the econmy will stagnate.

    It is important for us to remember this basic hashkapha.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. Veltz Meshugener
    K'shmo kain hu

    This argument is flawed in many ways. For starters, even if the essential point were true, anyone who has been to Israel understands that it is not 100% of the chareidim who are supporting the chilonim.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. The argument is spot on.

    And it isnt 100% of the chilonim who are supporting the Chareidim.

    And whatever little financial support the Chareidim receive from the State, it is extremely minimal and far less than needed to survive on the bare necessities. It isn't what is keeping the Chareidim financially solevant. (Not to even get into the fact that Chareidim pay taxes too.)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. gavra_at_work
    caution

    Good story and very true.

    Each Charaidi in Kollel should learn like Rav Yiztchak Elchanan, then we can discuss. Until then, no one wants to pay for people who want to work, but can't due to societal pressures, and therefore loaf around in the CR.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. y me
    Member

    This is a horrible argument! The arangement between R' Yitzchok Elchonon & his father-in-law was agreed upon by both of them. This is not the case with the chareidi and non-chareidi people in Israel. If it's forced upon someone to support you, that's gezel and only serves to drive true chilonim further away from yiddishkeit.

    On a 2nd note, you make the common and untrue assumption that the chareidim are the exclusive group of Jews learning Torah in E'Y. Not only is that not true, it's a hauty remark that also only drives true chilonim away from yiddishkeit.

    The reason I say "true chilonim" is because there a lots of Jews in E'Y who are religious to different levels than you and you'd classify them as "chilonim" based on looking at them. Meanwhile, some of them learn Torah to a very impressive degree. I know it sounds weird & you may not believe it but don't be so quick to judge them - that's one of the things you should have learned in all of your precious Torah learning! The actual number of true chilonim are not that many (significantly less than half of the population according to most polls). And, the ones who are actually ANTI-religious are a small fraction of the people. You would think that there are many more anti-religious here based on their ability to be quite vocal and because many chareidi people claim that almost everyone other than chareidim are anti-Torah. Bottom line: many of the Jews here just aren't religious yet and that's sad - let's stop the self-hating comments and be mekarev them instead of pushing them away further!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. mdd
    Member

    Y me, +1. For sure, as far as the first 2 paragraphs go.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. rebdoniel
    Modern/Open Orthodox

    I stand in solidarity with the brave men who learn in yeshivot hesder, combining service to the Jewish people with delving into the deepest depths of torah. Shaalavim, KBY, Gush, Mevaseret, etc. are wonderful mosdot and each is a true makom torah.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. It certainly is not gezel. The government willingly agreed to give that money. Besides, as was mentioned, the money the government gives is extremely little, not enough to live on, and it isn't what keeps kollel families going.

    And all that is even before considering what Chareidim financially put into the system.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Y me,

    This is a horrible argument!

    Then you should have refuted it. You only refuted the mashal, with the assumption that the z'chus of supporting Torah only works for those who do so willingly. The Brisker Rov is more equipped to to know whether this is true than you are. I hadn't heard this story with the Divrei Yoel and the Rov, but I had heard the same sentiment from R. Chaim Brim, ZT"L. As far as it being gezel, that's pure sheker, it's perfectly legal.

    On a 2nd note, you make the common and untrue assumption that the chareidim are the exclusive group of Jews learning Torah in E'Y. Not only is that not true, it's a hauty remark that also only drives true chilonim away from yiddishkeit.

    OP never said that the learning of non chareidim isn't a z'chus. You made that up just to condescendingly call the OP haughty.

    Mdd, I'm surprised that you even approved of the first two hate - filled paragraphs. You argument (which I disagree with - the gemara in Yevamos is not a raya bichlal) was tat it's a chilul Hashem because they don't understand. You never argued (at least I didn't notice) that it's gezel and is not a z'chus. Please reconsider.

    GAW, there's a lot of room between the loafers and R' Yitzchok Elchonon. One doesn't have to be a R' Yitzchok Elchonon for his Torah to be a z'chus for klal Yisroel. The loafers will indeed have to give din v'cheshbon, but their inability to be otherwise productive is because of the medina's rules which aren't designed to accommodate them.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. TheBearIsBack
    (Otis)zviller Rebbe

    The medine is the largest recipient of U.S. welfare. It is the ultimate loser, the ultimate golus Jew, the shlepper innkeeper or tailor who doesn't dare offend the poritz.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. y me
    Member

    Rebdoniel - yes, without a doubt I agree with your comment about the hesder yeshivot. They learn tremendous amounts of Torah. My 3rd paragraph above was just to say that "even" people who appear non-religious here also are known to learn Torah. Of course it's not on the same level as the hesder or chareidi yeshivot but then, we're not to judge who's learning is doing a better job at keeping us safe - only Hashem decides that.

    Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite - saying that the government willingly gave the money is not the whole truth. Firstly, the government gives the $$ because the chareidi parties strong-armed them into it. Secondly, the people paying the taxes don't agree - as can clearly be seen by the recent voting. Thirdly, the initial argument made by shoe store assistant above is that the current situation in Israel is comparable to the story of R' Yitzchok Elchonon. However, that story explains that both sides fully agreed and R' Yitzchok Elchonon kept his part of the bargain by learning b'zchut his F.I.L. In contrast, the chareidi mosdot routinely shun the government, the medinah and the soldiers. They don't make efforts to do anything b'zchut the soldiers - even something simple like saying a mi sheberach for the safety of the soldiers protecting them as they learn! Let's be crystal clear - I'm not talking about a mi sheberach for the medinah of Israel (chos v'shalom, lo aleinu) - I'm referring to davening a simple mi sheberach specifically for the safety of the foot soldiers who are actually defending us. That's NOT the government. They won't even say the words, forget about what's truly inside their hearts as they're learning! Simply put, they don't keep their part of the "partnership" because they don't see it as a partnership at all - they're taking money from the Jewish people here (via the government) against their will without sharing their learning z'chuyot with their soldier counterparts - and that, my friend, is gezel.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. MorahRach
    Member

    What do charedim financially contribute to the state?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    without sharing their learning z'chuyot with their soldier counterparts

    No, not specifically, and "sharing" is the wrong word. It is a z'chus for everyone, including the chayalim, including Yair Lapid, etc.

    and that, my friend, is gezel.

    Probably right about the myfriend part, dead wrong about the gezel part. Are you a Choshen Mishpat dayan to even offer a halachic opinion like that?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. gavra_at_work
    caution

    GAW, there's a lot of room between the loafers and R' Yitzchok Elchonon. One doesn't have to be a R' Yitzchok Elchonon for his Torah to be a z'chus for klal Yisroel. The loafers will indeed have to give din v'cheshbon, but their inability to be otherwise productive is because of the medina's rules which aren't designed to accommodate them.

    I agree except for the point of "accommodation". If the Hesder Yeshivos can manage, so can the Loafers. Those who learn B'amailus are "a z'chus for klal Yisroel", whether they will become the next Posek or not. Those who loaf don't stay because they are not accommodated in the workforce, but rather because of societal pressures.

    This comes to the point that akuperma (on the news article re: Rabbi Lipman) feels that the rest of the Israelis need to "accommodate" the Charaidim by making all of the business lunches Kosher by the standards of the Eida, and enforcing a Tznius dress code by law. I hope that we can can agree that such a request would be rejected appropriately. That is not "accommodation" but religious coercion. US business lunches are mostly not Kosher (in my experience). Either I don't eat or drink only bottled water.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Yesh v'yesh. If work were an option, some would do so, some would still loaf. Just like here in chu"l.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    MorahRach, What do charedim financially contribute to the state?

    What do IDF soldiers financially contribute to the state?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. Toi
    beware the cleats

    DY- im happy someone isnt as lazy as me, and still has the patience to deal with watery arguments. from lessons learned, youll probably get tired of it, but for now, en garde.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. y me
    Member

    DaasYochid - I was going to respond to your question to me but then I saw your rediculously idiotic response to MorahRach's question. Did you really ask "What do IDF soldiers financially contribute to the state?" That's probably the worst comment I've ever seen on this site - and there are lots to choose from!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    DY: War is one of the biggest economic stimulants... :P

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. apushatayid
    Member

    Noone is on welfare. Ultimately, the ribbono shel olam is the one who decides who has what. he also arranges the shliach. if he wanted the government to turn you down or otherwise reduce benefits to you, he can have it arranged. nobody has a penny more than they should have, unless they excercise their bechira and obtain it illegally.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. " What do charedim financially contribute to the state?"

    What do chilonim spiritually contribute to the state?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. zahavasdad
    zahavasoneluckygirl

    " What do charedim financially contribute to the state?"

    What do chilonim spiritually contribute to the state?

    You are making a false assumption that all non-charedim are relgion hating secularist, which is false.

    Many Israels are either Dati Leumi, or Traditional (Sephardim who partially keep stuff, they go to shul, Eat Kosher and go to the Beach after Shabbbos lunch) and similar

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Y me.

    I'll assume your misunderstanding of my comment was unintentional, so I'll refrain from answering in kind.

    I was not disparaging a soldier's contribution to society, I was making the point that one's contribution to society does not have to be financial.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. mdd
    Member

    Daas Yochid, if someone does not want to be modeh al ha
    emes, he will not. Pharoh is the primary example.
    My point about the Chilul HaShem was that it is Chilul HaShem to squeeze money out of unwilling and protesting people to support oneself in learning. If the raya from Yevamos is not a raya for you, I have nothing to tell you anymore.
    Btw, chevrah, I hold that the Earth is flat! Anybody wants to prove me wrong?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. akuperma
    Member

    RE: "What do charedim financially contribute to the state?"

    1. Yeshivos are actually a major industry. Tens of thousands of non-Israelis come to yeshivos from abroad, spending huge amounts on both tuition (which goes to pay Israeli teachers) and living costs. The Israelis understate this industry since they regard anyone in kollel, at least if they are exempt from being drafted, as being idle and unemployed when in fact most kollel people (using American definitions) are employed in the same sense that professors, research fellows and supported graduate students are employed.

    2. A great many hareidim have non-frum community jobs, but under Israeli law many of them are forced to work "under the table" to avoid being conscripted by an army that is for the most part quite hostile (except for some specialized units that are aimed for hareidim). If the army accomodated hareidi lifestyle and halachic interpretation, employment would be increasing "in the open."

    3. Whenever someone actually addresses the exclusion of hareidim from the mainstream economy, the hilonim scream "religious coercion" as in "What do you mean I can't touch my female coworkers" or "Why can't we have company meetings at my favorite restaurant so I can have my beloved pork chops" or "Why can't we schedule our work schedules to match when the markets are open in America", etc. Along with the fact the army has no serious manpower shortages, this suggest the move for "conscription" is solely motivated by hatred and fear of a growing hareidi population.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Mdd, so please explain your raya. I don't see it, but maybe you can explain it, instead of using rhetoric.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. gavra_at_work
    caution

    3. Whenever someone actually addresses the exclusion of hareidim from the mainstream economy, the hilonim scream "religious coercion" as in "What do you mean I can't touch my female coworkers" or "Why can't we have company meetings at my favorite restaurant so I can have my beloved pork chops" or "Why can't we schedule our work schedules to match when the markets are open in America", etc.

    This is religious coercion, but not the first point.

    Point #1: This would be a sexual harassment case in the US (unwanted touching), and should be in Israel as well. Nothing to do with religion.

    Point #2: The company can serve whatever food they want. No one is forcing you to eat. I have sat & drank water (from the bottle) while my co-workers ate pulled pork (and yes, it smells really good). That is called life & standing up for your beliefs. Forcing the Arab or Israeli to eat Badatz (because you know that is where you are going, Rabbanut is not good enough) is religious coercion.

    Point 3: If a company needs to be open when the US markets are open that is their right. No one is claiming that McDonalds has to "accommodate" me by no longer serving cheeseburgers. That is religious coercion.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. gavra_at_work
    caution

    Finally (for akuperma), I would like to see Charaidim complaining to the international human rights orgs, and getting a good lesson in Eisav Sonei Es Ya'akov. Hopefully they wont then require a lesson in the manner of Jacob de Haan (because the Zionists will do it if pushed. They've done it before.)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. y me
    Member

    DaasYochid - you do bring up a great point, a person's contribution to society isn't limited to finances. The problem is that MorahRach was asking for clarification about Kiryas Yoelite's statement that chareidim are contributing to the economy. She was not disparaging chareidim but asking for specifics. Your comment asking about the soldiers' financial contribution rubbed me wrong because it doesn't answer the original question and (seemed like) a dig at the soldiers who give significantly more than money.

    Having said that, I do think the soldiers give financially in many ways. They do their jobs for the country for a very small salary. They don't just fight but many of them also work in medicine, dentistry, engineering, hi-tech, food, etc - all while in the army. What's interesting is that they often take those skills with them into the market place when they've finished their army service. All of those jobs - both inside & outside of the army - contribute financially to the system. There are other ways that the soldiers contribute financially but that's for another time.

    Now, while I'm on the topic let me take us on a tangent - I've read comments multiple times claiming that the university students are given all kinds of stipends & funding but this isn't fair to the chareidim who are learning in yeshiva but get less money. I've repeatedly read here that to be fair, the government must give the chareidim the same. So, this argument is wrong for several reasons. Firstly, the chareidim get funding for much longer than univ. students. Secondly, the avreichim get lots of money from the government in many different ways besides just the stipends - the yeshivot are given money to use for itself, they wheel & deal to get cheaper housing (I'm seeing it 1st hand), they get huge arnona tax breaks, etc, etc, etc. This funding is not available to univ. students and continues for yrs & yrs. Thirdly (& possibly most importantly), the univ. students take their education & start working to improve the economy - that's the only reason it makes sense for a government to get involved with giving people stipends!!! The avreichim are much less likely to return financially to the economy as the univ students do.

    That means - you have to take into consideration the huge kiddush Hashem that the government has been financially supporting Torah learning for 60+ yrs with no expectation of financial return! Had the chareidi movement expressed their thanks in a kavodic way over the past 60+ yrs, I can't imagine where we would be now as the Jewish people in our Homeland!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. MorahRach
    Member

    DY and others, relax. I was actually asking because someone was trying to make a point about all the chareidim contribute by learning ( not arguing) " and that's even before what the chareidim contribute financially". I was asking not bating.

    And every single IDF soldier goes on to work therefor contributing financially. I am not discussing my opinion one way or another but that was a baseless statement.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. mogold
    Member

    GAW

    you really outdid yourself on this last post of yours..
    so now you're saying that the charaidim better stop complaining or else the Zionists will start murdering them in cold bold as they did to Jacob De Haan HYD ??
    wow!!to exhibit such blind bitter venomous hate toward the charaidim,nebach....

    and the mods let this through ???

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. MDG
    Member

    "against their will without sharing their learning z'chuyot with their soldier counterparts - and that, my friend, is gezel. "

    Many government programs are not according to the will of the majority of people. Eventually those decisions may be reviewed, as is happening in Israel now.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. MDG
    Member

    "If the army accomodated hareidi lifestyle and halachic interpretation, employment would be increasing "in the open.""

    What do you mean by hareidi lifestyle?
    Whose halachic interpretation?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    MorahRach,
    Sorry for taking your question out of context. I've learned to address my comments to the post or poster to which/whom it's addressed (and I remember to do that most the time). There were several long posts between yours and the one you addressed.

    My point was not that IDF soldiers don't eventually contribute financially; it was that there are contributions which are more important than financial.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. AZOI.IS
    Member

    Just wondering, has anyone imagined what E"Y would be like if Charedim had total control of the government?

    If everyone were allowed to learn in Kollel and joining the army would be optional? Short of Moshiach coming, how long would such a government last?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. Chareidim never sought total control of government.

    Furthermore, prior to the arrival of Zionists in EY, Chareidim in EY all DID in fact learn in Kollel, pretty much. That was always their lifestyle. Sure, money was always short, but they were happy with what they had. That, in fact, was why they chose to live in EY (before the zionists were even thinking of Uganada.)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. AZOI.IS
    Member

    The Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite,

    Chareidim never sought total control of government.

    Chareidim wouldnt dream of it, they cant run an army. Ain somchin al hanes.

    Furthermore, prior to the arrival of Zionists in EY, Chareidim in EY all DID in fact learn in Kollel, pretty much.

    Prior to the arrival of Zionists in EY, our ancestors were gassed by the millions and had no where to go.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. I see. So what you are saying is that since the Nazis gassed millions of our ancestors we ought to drop some Kollel learning.

    Chalk one victory up to Hitler.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. AZOI.IS
    Member

    TLKY,

    So what you are saying is that since the Nazis gassed millions of our ancestors we ought to drop some Kollel learning.

    Since the Nazis gassed millions of our ancestors, and Arabs would happily do the same, we badly need a militarily strong EY, so we can continue learning and not worry about being gassed.

    Do we cross the street in front of a moving car because if we learn and Daven, Hashem will save us?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  40. zahavasdad
    zahavasoneluckygirl

    There was no Kollel learning before approximatly the 1950's or 1960's. It did not exist in Europe

    Posted 1 year ago #
  41. The Israeli military will not get stronger than it currently is if Kolleleit are made to leave Kollel and enlist in the Army. This point has been said by their own Generals.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  42. mdd
    Member

    Daas Yochid, the only reason I broght that Gemorah down was to show that we have to be very concerned about causing Chillul HaShem(c^v). The Givyonim's (and their possible sympathizers) ta'anah was a far-off one. Yet, the Gemorah says we had to be worried about it.
    As far as the etzem zach goes -- I wrote enough. See my posts. Also, keep in mind that it is not only that they don't understand the inyan -- they are not mechuyav al pi Halochah(or otherwise) to support all the Chareidim in kollel.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  43. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    AZOI.IS,

    Nobody's advocating disbanding the army. The chareidim are not needed in the army, bur we can use all the learning we can get, and they're trying to draft yeshiva bochurim.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  44. TheBearIsBack
    (Otis)zviller Rebbe

    The only reason Arabs would happily gas "us" is because of the medine.

    The tzioinim and their terrorism is what caused the British to restrict entry into EY during the churban - they could not manage Arab anger against the tzioinim. The British and the Arabs were more than willing to grant Jews a national home - but not a state.

    I cannot buy up land in Bronx slums, set insurance fires, use the insurance money to build a KJ-type settlement, and then secede from the US. I'd end up in Oytisville if I did it for profit, or Pilgrim State if I did it for "ideological" reasons.

    That is exactly what the tzioinim did - they bought land, which was just fine - but the sellers and the recognized government of that time expected them to live in peace and respect others (as the old Yishuv did, which is why Reb Amram Bloy ZYA was able to acquire plenty of land from Arabs to create room for decent bnei Torah to live). Instead of using insurance money as my putative Creedmoorer did, the tzioinim used schnorred money from the Rothschilds and others to create their chilul Hashem in Eretz haKoidesh.

    The same people who protest when some yeshiva kids are accused of making noise and keep neighbors up are the same people who condone and glorify the actions of an illegitimate state that truly antagonizes its legitimate neighbors. The "Israelis" and their secular culture are no more legitimate than the "Palestinians" are. If the "Palestinians" ever lay down their arms, they will conquer the medine without a shot by demanding one state/one person/one vote.

    When that happens, I will move to EY and vote Aguda, which, along with Shas, will have the majority of Jewish seats in the new state's parliament. I would much rather live under Salem Fayyad than under Yair Lapid or even Bungling Bibi.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  45. Naftush
    Member

    So Bear, after confusing fantasy for fact you'd "much rather live under Salem Fayyad than under Yair Lapid or even Bungling Bibi"? Right on. You'll have plenty of homes to choose from. Thousands of Palestinians have left their autonomous territories to crowd into Jerusalem city limits and live under those vile "tzioinim."

    Posted 1 year ago #
  46. gavra_at_work
    caution

    mogold: Fool. That was a warning (which only a fool would ignore), not a threat. And it doesn't come from me. If you don't think the Zionists would do it, you have your head in the sand. They have killed for less.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  47. AZOI.IS
    Member

    TBIB,

    I would much rather live under Salem Fayyad than under Yair Lapid or even Bungling Bibi.

    "Fayyad presented several conditions to becoming prime minister, including that Hamas would recognise Israel, which Hamas declined".

    You might like the policies of Salem Fayyad, but because hes less Anti Israel than the general Arab populace and most Arab leaders, he wont ever come to power. Wishful thinking.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  48. The Goq™
    Founder, President, Vice President and CEO of the CR Welcome Wagon!

    How was his f-i-l able to live before Reb Elchonon married his daughter? I don't mean this facetiously but isn't it possible that the f-i-l was at an advanced age and just happened to die at that time?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  49. dolphina
    Member

    To all those who imagine that wishing something were so makes it so: there was no medina in 1929 in Chevron.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  50. Toi
    beware the cleats

    dolphina- theres actually an interesting maaseh about that. cant recall exactly, but it has to do with one of the rabbanim from then talking to the shiek then and being told that the frumme dont bother him, its those trying to make a state and statement. that made him mad. after the massacre ,r"l, the rav went back to him and asked why the bochurim were killed if the arabs had no issues with them. the sheik basically conveyed that it was unfortunate and didnt have an answer, but his issue was still with the zionists. isnt that interesting?

    Posted 1 year ago #

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