Why are the lakewood rabbanim so against an eruv in thier Town??

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  • #1417651

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Can anyone explain the crux of the issue and why is lakewood any different then say monsey,bnei brak,boro park,staten island ,kj, just to mention a few?

    #1417790

    smerel
    Participant

    To answer in very general terms.It is almost impossible to make an eruv over a large area of non privately owned property according to all shitos and without many kulas. Usually the larger the area the more difficult.

    There are so many differences in halachas of making an eruv between the cities you mention it is beyond the scope of this answer to discuss them all.

    #1417834

    GAON
    Participant

    Smerel,

    “It is almost impossible to make an eruv over a large area of non privately owned property ”

    Are you talking about the Tzuras Hapesach part or Eruvei Chatzeros?

    Historically speaking, it has always been done like that (as per Aruch haShulchan and many others) , as each and every town had those very issues.

    #1417840

    Meno
    Participant

    They’re trying to be like Brooklyn.

    (Where’s jakob?)

    #1417839

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Are they?

    #1417876

    smerel
    Participant

    GAON

    This issue is beyond the scope of the coffee room but if you are going with the argument of “it has always been done” then in Lakewood you are dealing with a situation where as a matter of principle “it has never been done”.

    #1417878

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    When Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L first established a Yeshiva in Lakewood, he was insistent on several things to make the city as much of a מקום קודש as possible. Some examples include no secular studies in Yeshiva high schools, no sit-down restaurants, and no eruv. Lakewood has ברוך ה׳ grown far beyond even what R’ Kotler ZT”L could have imagined it, but his influence was so strong that even his opinions that were clearly meant for a small town of 50-100 Kollel yungerlite are treated with great care. So people are very hesitant to establish an eruv, as it would mean going against what is perceived to be R’ Kotler ZT”L wishes.

    #1417879

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Also the eruvs in Monsey (see the recent issue with the קרפוף ) and Boro Park (need I actually talk about this?) are far from ideal and rely on several קוּלות, meaning many people won’t carry there.

    #1417916

    GAON
    Participant

    “are far from ideal and rely on several קוּלות, meaning many people won’t carry there.”

    Carrying or not is not the issue, as per Shitah Mekubatzes (in Betzah) and many Poskie Achronim, there is an Inyan to construct an Eruv to prevent people from mistakenly carrying or for the needy.

    You can be Machmir and not carry. Rav Chaim of Brisk did not use the eruv in Brisk but he still made sure there was an Eruv.

    The issue with “קרפוף” is by far new, and all achornim managed to deal with it.

    Again, unlike Brooklyn, as per the Shulcan Aruch there is clearly no issue with Reshus haRabim, it is no different than Yershalayim and many other towns. Unless you go with the Chazon Ish (who holds that cities have less of a problem) Rav Moshe did allow an Eruv in Kew Gardens.

    In addition, I am sure there is a way to add to many developments “Dalsos” (haRaos linal) and close it off once or twice a year.

    “in Lakewood you are dealing with a situation where as a matter of principle “it has never been done””

    The mesorah did not start in Lakewood. Did Rav Ahron leave some kind of a Tzavah and psak that never can there an eruv be constructed in Lakewood? I know he did hold (and written) that Manhattan was a reshus haRabim but that is not relevant to Lakewood.

    #1417898

    maskildoresh
    Participant

    The details of Hilchos Eiruvin are highly complex and technical.

    Rav Ahron Kotler z”l was of the opinion that Route 9 (Madison Ave) is a Reshus HaRabbim Diyoraysa, and therefore would invalidate any Eiruv made that crosses over Route 9. According to many Poskim, this could invalidate the Eiruv if it encompased certain streets that lead into the 9. The lakewood Rabbanim have never countenaced an Eiruv that would be invalid according to Rav Ahron’s shita. There are many, many smaller Eiruvin throughout Lakewood that are Kosher according to all. And are approved of by many of Lakewood’s Rabbanim, (including some of “Yeshiva’s 4 Poskim”)

    This does not necessarly relate to the Shailos involved with the creation of an Eiruv in Brooklyn, and RavMoshe z”l’s Shita regarding the “Square” containing 600,000. This is a unique issue relating to Route 9, which transverses most of the eastern seaboard of the US.

    This isn’t really a political discussion, and should probably not be made into one.

    #1417989

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @gaon

    Sure there are people who wouldn’t carry no matter what, but I mean that many people don’t hold of the eruv period.

    The issue with “קרפוף” is by far new, and all achornim managed to deal with it.

    There was an issue in Monsey over סוכות where the eruv around the קרפוף was found to have fallen down and no one was able to say how long it had been down for as that part wasn’t checked weekly. This upset a lot of people as the reliance on the קרפוף to begin with was done in a way that relied on קוּלות.

    it has never been done

    And? Treating everything a Rov once said like it’s Torahs Moshe leads to some very questionable life choices, as has been demonstrated by many different people and communities. If it’s not written down as a פסק הלכה for that particular situation, like Rav Moshe ZT”L did with the Brooklyn eruv, it’s meaningless.

    #1418024

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Why would anyone be against sit down restaurants? That’s a bigger mystery to me.

    #1418344

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Route 9 only gets 600,000 people on weeksdays where it is not a ROUTE, but rather a PARKING LOT

    #1418267

    midwesterner
    Participant

    While a lot of what Yserb says is accurate, I’m not sure there were any takanos from R Aharon about secular studies. in Lakewood High Schools. There were no yeshiva high schools at all in Lakewood (that had to do with the BMG community) until the 80s, and R Aharon was nifter in 1962. The only high schools R Aharon had a shaychus to were Philly and some of the other Lakewood snifim, such as Long Beach and Scranton, (maybe Adelphia also) and they all had decent high schools from their founding until today.
    It is also unlikely to say that there were takanos against sit down restaurants in R Aharon’s days, as it is exceedingly unlikely that anyone even dreamed of such a think in Lakewood back in 1962 and earlier.

    As far as the Eruv is concerned; virtually every block, development, schuna, neighborhood has an eruv. And many of them link with many others, letting people carry for some fair distances in some places. What there is not is anything large that connects far apart neighborhoods. Aside from the halachic reasons to exclude a mavoi mefulash d’oraisa, as some would consider Route 9 – Madison/River, there are hashkafic and social reasons not to allow unfettered carrying anywhere and everywhere. The total negation of all Hotza’ah restrictions can lead to decreasing of the kedushas Shabbos atmosphere. I know there are eruvin in Yerushalayim and Bnai Brak and places like those, but the old timers, establishers of the Lakewood community wanted to reduce the hustle and bustle, and therefore discouraged large scale eruvin.

    #1418420

    hershh
    Participant

    Is everything in Lakewood according to all shitos? In all the towwns in Europe the first thing the rav took care was the mikva and the eiruv. In the chassidc community an eruv is considered something that adds Kedusha to the entire town. Hence the reform always fought against it

    #1418432

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The BMG crowd may not “want” an eruv because Rabbi Kotler et. al. were against it but in general, if there are those who want to build one using public utility poles etc, it can be done. It would be a real chilul hashem for some yidden in Lakewood to intervene with public authorities against an eruv when yidden in other towns have been the target of anti-Semitic opposition to their efforts to place an eruv on utility poles and lampposts.

    repaired – next time I just delete

    #1418427

    GAON
    Participant

    Regarding RT 9 –
    BTW there are shitos that you don’t apply cars to the amount of Reshus HaRabim, being that a) its in a reshus on its own and b) is not Holech Be’regel as in Diglei Midbar.

    #1418425

    GAON
    Participant

    “This is a unique issue relating to Route 9, which transverses most of the eastern seaboard of the US.”

    As I and Yser… have pointed out, is there anything that Rav Ahrona has written regarding this unique psak?

    Again, this situation is not the first klal Yisrael has had, and Gadolei haPoskim have written their responsa on these issues.

    Bnei Brak and Jerusalem would have the same issue with any street connecting to the Kvish/Highway.

    I recall Rav Moshe mentioning something in regards to the roads leading to the train tracks in Europe, where between all stops there were thousands of passengers..

    #1418452

    youdontsay
    Participant

    @gadolhadorah
    “The BMG crowd may not “want” an eruv because Rabbi Kotler et. al. were against it but in general, if there are those who want to build one using public utility poles etc, it can be done. It would be a real chilul hashem for some yidden in Lakewood to intervene with public authorities against an eruv when yidden in other towns have been the target of anti-Semitic opposition to their efforts to place an eruv on utility poles and lampposts.”

    Well said. Please all hotheads take note. Actually there is precedent, London 1993.

    #1418451

    youdontsay
    Participant

    @yserbius123
    “There was an issue in Monsey over סוכות where the eruv around the קרפוף was found to have fallen down and no one was able to say how long it had been down for as that part wasn’t checked weekly. This upset a lot of people as the reliance on the קרפוף to begin with was done in a way that relied on קוּלות.”

    Right, and there where issues with certain schita’s, did everyone stop eating meat? Why when it comes to eruvin are people more chumradig? It’s simple people do not know the inyan at all.

    #1418450

    youdontsay
    Participant

    Most of the people commenting here regarding the RT 9 simply have never gone thru the inyan and have no idea what they are talking about. According to Rav Aharon it is not just RT 9 that is an issue but all public streets that are 16 amos wide. Therefore, since many of the eruvin in Lakewood cross over streets that are wider than 16 amos these eruvin would be problematic. However, Rav Aharon’s shitos in eruvin are kneged the accepted minhag. Moreover, an eruv in Lakewood would be sanctioned according to Rav Moshe’s shitos.

    #1418449

    youdontsay
    Participant

    @yserbius123

    “Also the eruvs in Monsey (see the recent issue with the קרפוף ) and Boro Park (need I actually talk about this?) are far from ideal and rely on several קוּלות, meaning many people won’t carry there.”
    Karfifos are not a new issue. All rabbanim had to deal with them, and nevertheless found a way do establish eruvin. Boro Park does not have the issue of karfifos at all. BP does not rely on kulos. You simply don’t know what you are talking about.

    #1418448

    adocs
    Participant

    Maskil-

    “This is a unique issue relating to Route 9, which transverses most of the eastern seaboard of the US.”

    Really? Other than NY-NJ-DE, what other states does it go through?

    #1418447

    youdontsay
    Participant

    People say things in the name of Rav Aharon, that are simply untrue.

    #1418442

    youdontsay
    Participant

    @smerel

    ” Usually the larger the area the more difficult.”
    If you are referring to technical issues I would say you are correct. If you are referring to halachic issues you are off the mark.

    “There are so many differences in halachas of making an eruv between the cities you mention it is beyond the scope of this answer to discuss them all.”
    I would love to go beyond the scope of this thread. Lets see if you are up to the challenge.

    #1418446

    youdontsay
    Participant

    @yserbius123
    “When Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L first established a Yeshiva in Lakewood, he was insistent on several things to make the city as much of a מקום קודש as possible. Some examples include … and no eruv.”
    C”v to say such hevel.

    #1418457

    GAON
    Participant

    Hersh,
    ‘In the chassidc community an eruv is considered something that adds Kedusha to the entire town. ”
    What does chassidic have anything with this issue. The question is if it’s halachakly permitted or not.
    If it is then an eruv should indeed be constructed and if not, then again there is no “Kedusha” in such an eruv..

    #1418464

    youdontsay
    Participant

    @midwesterner
    ” Aside from the halachic reasons to exclude a mavoi mefulash d’oraisa, as some would consider Route 9 – Madison/River,”
    If RT 9 is a mavoi mefulash so are all streets. The issue is shishim ribo.

    “there are hashkafic and social reasons not to allow unfettered carrying anywhere and everywhere.”

    C”v to believe such statements.

    #1418467

    youdontsay
    Participant

    “This is a unique issue relating to Route 9, which transverses most of the eastern seaboard of the US.”

    This type of talk demonstrates ignorance. If we do not accept the criterion of shishim ribo, then all streets wider than 16 amos are a problem.

    #1418466

    youdontsay
    Participant

    ” The total negation of all Hotza’ah restrictions can lead to decreasing of the kedushas Shabbos atmosphere.”

    Oy vey, new halachos.

    #1418473

    GAON
    Participant

    “If RT 9 is a mavoi mefulash so are all streets. The issue is shishim ribo.”

    So what are the facts, does it halachakly have shishim ribo bChol Yom passing or not?

    #1418476

    GAON
    Participant

    You,
    “Oy vey, new halachos”
    Yup, stick around another day or two and you will see how many “new invented halachos’ will surface here..

    #1418484

    So what are the facts, does it halachakly have shishim ribo bChol Yom passing or not?

    That’s a question of metzius, not halacha.

    #1418486

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “This is a unique issue relating to Route 9, which transverses most of the eastern seaboard of the US.”

    The “Route 9 shita” is well known, at least among the eruv cognoscenti. However the more fundamental question is still whether there would ever be a rational basis for any segment of the tzibur to publicly oppose efforts by another to build an eruv that meets their needs and is consistent with the views of their Rav. In simple terms, no one would be forcing anyone else to rely upon the eruv and thus opposing efforts by other yidden to build one would itself be assur.

    #1418685

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    After speaking to a handful talmidim of reb ahron and rav shneur it would seem that lakewood does not have a city eruv for hashkofik reasons ie. mingling in the streets on shabbos etc.,and hardly anything to do with halacha. Rt 9 is not a new concept in halacha and isn’t the first road in the united states or in the world where shaylos of eruv was a question. On the other hand if its a hashkafa decision then its pretty much a decision of many hashkafa decisions we do , but since when do we force others to accept your hashkafa. If u dont want to carry then don’t carry.this is the way its done in the velt. So the question still remains why is lakewood different in this area of eruv.

    #1418694

    Joseph
    Participant

    The rabbonim of a city absolutely have the right to enact and enforce a takana above and beyond plain halachic permissiveness.

    #1418696

    GAON
    Participant

    Random,

    “So what are the facts, does it halachakly have shishim ribo bChol Yom passing or not?

    That’s a question of metzius, not halacha.”

    Of course the “metzius” is the issue . However, I purposely used the word “halachakly ” as the very ‘metzius’ is not something you just take a census etc. It should be defined by an Halachik perspective. There are many approaches and shitos how exactly we define ‘shishim ribo’ and B’chol Yom.

    For starters, read carefully the אשל אברהם סי’ שמ”ה of the Da’as Kedoshi, which you can find in the back of most Shulchan Aruch’s.
    Also, the Mishkenos Yaakov in his famous responsum on reshus harabim bzh”z how he explains the Shu”A and Tur shita of b’chol Yom…

    #1418701

    youdontsay
    Participant

    @takes2-2tango
    “After speaking to a handful talmidim of reb ahron and rav shneur it would seem that lakewood does not have a city eruv for hashkofik reasons ie. mingling in the streets on shabbos etc.,and hardly anything to do with halacha.”

    Oy vey new minhagim. I guess these “talmidim” don’t realize that such reid would make them an eino modeh b’eruv. These arguments would do away with all eruvin, large or small. Moreover, I have never heard such reid from non Chasidim. This leads me to believe that these arguments are a modern day invention.

    #1418710

    GAON
    Participant

    Takes,
    ” lakewood does not have a city eruv for hashkofik reasons ie. mingling in the streets on shabbos etc”

    Hmm so all the Pizza shops, eateries,restaurants, cafe’s and luncheonettes, etc that have exploded in the past couple of years (and it seems like there is a new one every time I pass Lakewood) is the Ideal Hashkofic society that the founders of Lakewood had in mind!!?

    How ironic, when it comes to Eruv people all of a sudden have an issue with Tzenius ! If everyone would really be confined to their utmost Tzenuis than yes …But!

    it is worthy to quote the words of the תשב”ץ regarding constructing Eruvin:

    :וז”ל שו”ת תשב”ץ חלק ב סימן לז
    ?אם יש חשש עבירה בתקוני מבואות”
    ח”ו – אבל הזריז בזה הרי זה משובח, אדרבה הם תמהים בגמרא על מי שאפשר לו לתקן ואינו מתקן, דאמרינן בפ’ הדר (ס”ח ע”א) א”ל רבא בר חנן לאביי מבואה דדיירין בה תרי גברי רברבי כרבנן לא ליהוי ליה לא עירוב ולא שתוף, א”ל מאי אעבוד, מר לאו ארחיה, אנא טרידנא בגרסאי, אינהו לא משגחי.
    ” ונראה מכאן שאלמלא טרדת הגרסא דרך ת”ח הוא לתקן. ומי שלבו נוקפו בזה, הדיוטות גמורה היא או מינות נזרקה בו, וזכות גדולה היא למתקן

    #1418720

    GAON
    Participant

    Gadol,
    “The “Route 9 shita” is well known”
    Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is the “shitah” – does it have Shishim Ribo or not? If not, then each and every road (wider than 16 Amos), even your quiet upstate road has a status of Reshus haRabim.

    #1418810

    GAON
    Participant

    ‘such reid would make them an eino modeh b’eruv”

    I don’t think that is exactly the definition of אינו מודה בעירוב which was originally for צדוקים who don’t believe at all about the very concept of Eruvin. It might be silly reason, given the above, but they do make Eruvei Chatzeros in their driveways etc – so how can they be labeled as “eino modeh b’eruv’?

    #1418868

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “If not, then each and every road (wider than 16 Amos), even your quiet upstate road has a status of Reshus haRabim.”

    Yes, your point? From my understanding the Mishnah Berurah says a Baal Nefesh holds by this definition. The Kitzur definitely advocates for the stricter definition in line with the Rif, Rambam, and Rashba. I never really understood the 600K shittah (even though I rely on it). It’s always stated in books like, “in our times there are no reshus harabim” (books written before big cities like NYC). That just doesn’t really add up since it implies that in the past they DID have to worry about it, when back then it would have required more than half of klal Yisroel to casually walk down the road.

    I don’t see what the Lakewood issue is. How would an eruv cause “mingling in the streets?” Without an eruv, people will mingle in the streets with empty pockets; with an eruv, they’ll mingle while carrying stuff. What difference would it make? Then again, I don’t even understand the problem with restaurants, so I really just don’t know anything.

    #1418904

    Joseph
    Participant

    What period was “before big cities like NYC”?

    #1418995

    Joseph
    Participant

    “How would an eruv cause “mingling in the streets?” Without an eruv, people will mingle in the streets with empty pockets; with an eruv, they’ll mingle while carrying stuff. What difference would it make?”

    Most young women with children won’t be out in the streets on Shabbos if there’s no eruv.

    “I don’t even understand the problem with restaurants, so I really just don’t know anything.”

    Restaurants have been a tznius problem that the rabbonim have been crying to the tzibbur about for many many years.

    #1419112

    Phil
    Participant

    “Most young women with children won’t be out in the streets on Shabbos if there’s no eruv”

    Yeah, why should young women with children, or any women anywhere for that matter, be out in the street on Shabbos or any other day of the week? Surely R. Aharon, zt”l held that women shouldn’t ever be seen nor heard from, right, Joseph?

    #1419124

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Shulchan Aruch and Rambam pasken l’halacha that women shouldn’t be out of the home much. So the general concern (aside from an eruv) is certainly a valid one. (Unless the S”A doesn’t mean much to you.)

    #1419163

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    December 5, 2017 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm
    JosephParticipant
    The Shulchan Aruch and Rambam pasken l’halacha that women shouldn’t be out of the home much. So the general concern (aside from an eruv) is certainly a valid one. (Unless the S”A doesn’t mean much to you.)

    _—————————————-

    Joseph. U can quote the rambam fin hynt biz Moshiach but u know very well that 95 % of kollel wives in Lakewood especially are out of thiet homes most of the day supporting thiet husbands learning. Its either your followong the rambam or your just using the rambam when it’s convenient for your agenda. Btw joseph. This is not your first time using halacha and poskim to support your skewed agenda.

    #1419164

    GAON
    Participant

    “The Shulchan Aruch and Rambam pasken l’halacha that women shouldn’t be out of the home much”

    Without going into facts – Is this Halacha ONLY pertaining to Shabbos?

    #1419165

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The point with respect to an eruv is simple….even if you want to call it a kulah or don’t hold by eruvim, there are enough younger bnos yisorel who do accept them and it is crucial for their ability to get out of the house on Shabbos with the kids and live a normal life. As noted earlier, if you don’t like eruvim, stay home but don’t impose your hashkafah (or R’ Kotler’s ) on others.

    #1419140

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Please stop blaming your misogyny on Halacha and projecting it on to R. Aharon, zt”l.

    trimmed

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