Why do people think they could “trust themselves” with smartphones?

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  • #1523975

    MasmidInTraining
    Participant

    As everyone should know, smartphones are b’vadai assur, yet people seem to baldfacedly ignore this, and insist that they can “trust themselves.” Honestly, the Gedolei Hador could probably “trust themselves” a lot more than these people, yet they still saw to making it assur? Anybody want to say pshat?

    #1524060

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    If it is really assur why are there a number of Roshei Yeshiva who walk around with a smart phone?

    #1524061

    whitecar
    Participant

    When they get it they say “ill never do anything dirty” and after they eventually say “its not as bad as they say”. Ive seen it myself

    #1524076

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    As a gadol haorah(ah), I can assure you that it is indeed possible to “trust oneself” with respect to using a smartphone for its intended purpose of accessing information without sneaking around and watching pritzus on a 6 inch screen on which I couldn’t distinguish Esther from Haman (even with my reading glasses). Obviously, many other gadolim and askanim concur since they are routinely phtotographed with smartphones in their hands and many chashuve rabbonim now prepare divrei torah that can only be accessed with a web-enabled device. If the Ebeshter didn’t want us using smartphones, Steve Jobs would have been ended up the pioneer of solar-powered shabbos blechs

    #1524075

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Anyone who has a smartphone without a good filter such as Netspark, Gentech or similar is guilty of giruy hayetzer at least and avizrayu d’arayos and avodah zarah/kefirah at worst. Ayin roeh, lev chomed vklei maaseh gomrim! Vehamayvin yovin.

    #1524073

    NOYB
    Participant

    Smartphones are absolutely not bvadai assur, as proven by the many gedolim who have them. I would be careful because you seem to be accusing probably half or at least a third of frum yidden nowadays including a lot of choshve rabonim. How do you know that people can’t control themselves? Are you checking everyone’s phones? Besides, many if not most of the same rabonim who say no one should have smartphones say the same about the internet, yet here you are…

    #1524070

    beee
    Participant

    but a good solution that I use and was suggested by tag, is to have a kosher phone but then you have a lap top with e-mail and stuff that you need, like yeshiva world of course!!

    #1524071

    Sammyonetwo
    Participant

    bavadi assure is a broad untrue statement a jpod is a smartphone and it has a hechsher.
    A lot of rabbonim say you can have a smartphone with a proper filter so what you said simply isn’t true to have a smartphone without any filter is assur but if you have the proper filter on it then it’s not assur.
    So please gets your facts strait then go radical on everyone as saying a mast majority of yidden are doing something assur.

    #1524069

    beee
    Participant

    i would think that if a Rosh Yeshiva has one, it is filtered very strictly, but still if its assur, than its assur and there should be no excuse for anyone at all!!!!

    #1524103

    Joseph
    Participant

    No choshve rabbonim have a smartphone. Not every guy who got smicha somewhere and now calls himself rabbi, and hangs out a shingle and opens up a shteeble, is a choshuve rov.

    #1524101

    I don’t trust myself, and it’s not about doing “bad” things.
    It’s about wasting hours there, constantly on edge, have everything on my fingertips.
    I’m so happy mine is in the trash.

    #1524122

    The little I know
    Participant

    As usual, the commenters here, hiding behind their screen name anonymity, are creating halacha standards. No one here is posek enough to make determinations, especially to create an issur that is not contained in our Shulchan Aruch or the recognized poskim. One may quote any of the “issurim” that have been stated by contemporary poskim, but the proclamations as appear in earlier comments are plainly irresponsible. They are no better than the medical advice shared by lay people waiting at the grocery checkout.

    A smartphone is a device that has great and wide variety of capability. Some of these can be used for things that are clearly assur (no, not my statement, but the pasuk of ולא תתורו אחרי לבבכם ואחרי עיניכם). Inasmuch as the access to these temptations is effortless, the risk of falling into traps is great. That issue must be addressed. Halacha refers specifically to the prohibition of entering a מקום סכנה. Having stated that, there are many things that are Torahdig and praiseworthy that can be accomplished with a smartphone. If these are needed, then one can consider the ways to reduce and eliminate the risk. To rely on oneself to avoid the dangers is foolish. However, a properly filtered smartphone can be perfectly safe of the dangers.

    The other feature that was alluded to by Shopping613 is the addictive aspect that can easily rob us of countless hours, even not schmutz. This is true for many things, not just smartphones, though devices seem to be quite adept at capturing attention.

    And my personal experience with rabbonim is that many do have filtered smartphones. The reality is that many people, by nature of their activity and career, have a real need for the “kosher” features of a smartphone. I know of many individuals who posed their shailos about having a filtered smartphone to poskim, and were advised to do so. The blanket “issurim” that are proclaimed by non-poskim here and elsewhere are suspect, and more often than not, just overstatements without proper halachic support. I understand the negative side quite well. But that is not the universal halacha for all. Just check with TAG.

    #1524171

    The little I know, it is true other things are addictive. Such as alcohol, drugs and other things.
    Use them if you need to, and use them properly.
    But do you REALLY need a smartphone? Seriously?

    I don’t know about you but I struggle with so much, with spiritual things, emotional things, I’m a work in progress! There so much work to be done, I can’t fathom introducing extra work for no reason.

    It takes a lot of work to resist it.
    The makers of this technology don’t own them themselves.
    They pay millions of dollars a year to their workers to figure out your brain and how you can spend 1 more second on their app.

    I prefer to just stay out of it.

    #1524241

    The little I know
    Participant

    Shopping:

    Your points are good and valid. Not everyone needs a smartphone, and those who don’t are undeniably better off without one. There are numerous avenues for entertainment that are so much healthier and safer, as well as less addictive.

    Having said this, we must return to reality. Today’s communication often requires the kind of instant access that is possible only with technology. If someone needs to have email access, or connection to personal and company schedules, these resources can be critical.

    I note your parallel to drugs and alcohol. While different in nature, there are several common aspects, as you noted that there is limited and proper use. When any of these becomes recreational in its purpose, problems begin.

    #1524597

    “As a gadol haorah(ah), I can assure you”
    Been to the Therapist of late?

    #1524599

    One thing that irks people who daven from the same phone that they may have used for ..
    Even if that is a bit extreme ,they surely take it into the bathroom,etc.

    #1524608

    The Little I know:

    If you aren’t working you don’t need one. That means moms who aren’t working. Also most women have jobs that they don’t need to be contacted off hours.

    Even so I have a computer, I don’t need to have skype and e-mail at my reach every second of the day.
    I do understand the matzav is a bit different in the USA.

    Although in Israel, having a smartphone means you don’t have to wait an hour at the bank, and you can work with your health care on the go, and many other useful apps, there aren’t necessary, and although technology advances and many people are trying to make things unworkable for non-smartphone users, I believe there’s a big enough population in Israel who will refuse to touch a smartphone, that forces the government and businesses and health care and everything else to make sure everything is available without a smartphone.

    #1524633

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    It is Time for TruthParticipant
    One thing that irks people who daven from the same phone that they may have used for ..
    Even if that is a bit extreme ,they surely take it into the bathroom,etc.
    ————————————–
    Do u take off your tzitis and yarmulka before entering the bathroom?
    Theres alot more kedusha in your tzitis then in your smartphone.
    Do u bury your smartphone when it breaks?

    #1524634

    takahmamash
    Participant

    From what I’ve heard, these Gedolim have said the internet is assur, yet I see you all still hanging around in the CR. I can’t imagine that any of the Gedolim you quote and allegedly follow would sanction you being on this website, especially in the CR.

    #1524635

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Why stop at smartphones?
    How can you trust yourself to not be mechallel shabbos,eat traif, hilchos nidda,
    Hilchos yichud. Getting up to daven before zman krias shma,eating on Yom kipper The list is endless!

    #1524637

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Shopping; You say “if you aren’t working you don’t need one..”
    Among many really naresh comments, this truly is breathtaking….a smartphone is a source of access to information as well as a tool for daily life functions, whether you are frum or otherwise. Most government and commercial functions have either migrated entirely to electronic format or will do some within the next year or two. If you want to live in a cave and revert back to barter trade and isolate yourself and your family from the world, you are certainly free to do so and probably can cobble together tools to bypass the internet but most normal yidden have learned to adhere to Halacha while taking advantage of all the benefits of an electronic world. It has nothing to do with working (although I’m sure there are some that view the “W” word as much of a threat to their neshamas as the internet).

    #1524743

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    I really hope more people start realizing that it isnt just fanatic zealot frummies who are screaming about the risks having a smartphone without a filter. The problems are real, people.

    Maybe that’s part of the problem. If u see someone being too extreme (to you) about it youre like, “this guys a super fanatic.” Hope not. From what i understand, there have been more intercommmunity discussions between the MO and righter wing regarding these problems as they effect all people. Shame such a thing had to bring them together.

    #1524991

    sbeph
    Participant

    If the question asked was regarding a phone without a filter, It is a very fair question that I wonder a lot myself. Forget Psak Halacha. I know personally I would stumble a lot (and somewhat have) It is a very disturbing and honest question. Yet the guy next to me who speaks constant lashon harah, davens in twenty minutes and rarely makes it to the beis medrash, has more self control than me. I find it all very confusing.

    #1525010

    GadolHadorah, did you read my last post? I said:

    1. I never said it’s assur, I just listed some of the bad parts about it and why it would be helpful to avoid it if possible.
    2. Mentioned I do not know of the matzav how necessary it is in the USA. I have not been bad since I moved 6 years ago, and that was a time where most people I knew were getting the first Iphones and people have blacberrys.
    3. I mentioned in Israel it is definitely possible to function and THRIVE without a smartphone. There is a massive population who will refuse to allow it in their homes, and although extreme, you can’t deny that in those people’s merit the government had to cater towards them since they are a pretty big amount of people.

    #1525237

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    Let’s assume gadol hadorah was joking and not totally mental.

    Albert hoffman discovered lsd. Does that mean Hashem meant for us to use it?

    The atom bomb. Does that mean we as jews should use it?

    I mean do you actually think or is it just a big flatline?

    #1525370

    “Why stop at smartphones?
    How can you trust yourself to not be mechallel shabbos,eat traif, hilchos nidda,
    Hilchos yichud. Getting up to daven before zman krias shma,eating on Yom kipper ”
    This is the/a major part of the problem .Everything mentioned have Hilchos.
    For phones, they have as of yet to be codified.And many prefer it this way.They will spat or type fire and brimstone for any will even try.

    #1525373

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why stop at smartphones?
    How can you trust yourself to not be mechallel shabbos,eat traif, hilchos nidda,
    Hilchos yichud

    You’ve partially answered your own question. We do find that you’re not allowed to trust yourself for some things, hence hilchos yichud.

    Is it a wonder that some put an unfiltered device in the same category?

    #1525372

    Takes2,
    “Do u bury your smartphone when it breaks?”
    Is this reproof or proof?
    One should pray from something that he/she will bury
    p.s.How about using something from a scribe who is a heretic?

    #1525378

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Smartphones are not exactly the same as Melechal Shabbos or ate Treif

    The difference is a FFB frum jew never ate Treif (Or at least was not supposed to) so you sort of done know what you are missing, They did have smart phones and it was taken away. Its alot harder to take something away from someone that they already had then take something away they never had

    #1525393

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The difference is a FFB frum jew never ate Treif (Or at least was not supposed to)

    But what if he did? And what about non FFB?

    #1525414

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Some BT’s do have a problem getting a Taavah for something they can no longer eat

    Ask an FFB about Lobster and ask a BT about it. An FFB would likely be repulsed by it, but a BT might have a problem if he smelled one

    #1525405

    votekosher
    Participant

    Why are you trusted on a computer?

    #1525403

    I never said it’s assur. But why voluntarily put yourself in a extended position where you need to resist an addictive item every single day if you don’t have to? Don’t you have enough things to worry about? You are going to add more problems?

    #1525401

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant
    Why stop at smartphones?
    How can you trust yourself to not be mechallel shabbos,eat traif, hilchos nidda,
    Hilchos yichud. Getting up to daven before zman krias shma,eating on Yom kipper The list is endless!
    ——————————————————————————————————————————–
    1. None of these things are created to be physically addictive.
    There’s a taivah there, but it’s not an addictive taivah. It doesn’t send endorphins to your brain every time you think about it or do it.

    #1525433

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Takes2-2tango
    Participant
    Why stop at smartphones?
    How can you trust yourself to not be mechallel shabbos,eat traif, hilchos nidda,
    Hilchos yichud. Getting up to daven before zman krias shma,eating on Yom kipper The list is endless!”

    Good point tango, Chazal made many gezeiras in all the points you mention, just like they do here with smart phones. Glad to see you support the smartphone ban.

    #1525505

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Good point tango, Chazal made many gezeiras in all the points you mention, just like they do here with smart phones. Glad to see you support the smartphone ban
    ————————————
    The original question still remains even with all the bans in place
    How can one trust ones self.
    For example:
    Your out in idaho on a business trip and you have no kosher food,how can you trust yourself from not walking into wendys?
    Or your in bed and your very tired, how can you trust yourself not to miss zman krias shma?
    What kinda bans according to u are out there? So my question still isnt answered . Why are we only concerned about yrusting ourselves with intetnet?
    Do we trust ourselves with loshon hora??

    #1525536

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We don’t trust ourselves with arayos, that’s why there are hilchos yichud as well as other harchakos.

    If you think you’ll walk into Wendy’s because your yetzer hora will be so strong, don’t go anywhere near it. However, specifically in the area of arayos, the yetzer hora is so strong that the Torah and Chazal instituted extra harchkos.

    #1525568

    Joseph
    Participant

    And to continue the point, yichud with unfiltered internet is a breach of arayos.

    #1525671

    Midwest2
    Participant

    I don’t buy the “you can’t trust people with it.” What does bother me is the addiction angle. And that’s all cell phones, not just smartphones. Walk down the street in a frum neighborhood on a day that isn’t Shabbos. You’ll see the majority of adults walking with head down, phone jammed to ear, oblivious to the world and other people. Or the adult at home taking care of children that he/she is only half aware of, because of the phone, again jammed to ear. Or the spouse who feels cut off. Or the driver who just almost ran you over at the corner. Fortunately teachers aren’t allowed to use their cells during class, otherwise we’d have neglected students, too.

    As the not-so-old Lipa music video says, “Hang up the phone!”

    #1525753

    DY,
    Well said

    To buttress this further
    1)”L’nezira, schor schor, l’carma la nikrav”
    2) Chazal on occasion weren’t gozeir for situations it wasn’t necessary e.g. the public weren’t by and large nichsal for that Issue.But it was with the caveat that where,when and if ,the said issue is becoming a developing problem then it would be incumbent to “erect fences” in place for analogous scenarios.

    #1525763

    Joseph
    Participant

    So you “don’t buy” it, Midwest. So what. This isn’t an issue for you to decide or to buy.

    #1525777

    Phil
    Participant

    “So you “don’t buy” it, Midwest. So what. This isn’t an issue for you to decide or to buy.”

    Joseph,

    Being nasty, for a change? The CR is a place for anyone to express their opinion, even the ridiculously myopic opinions that you usually espouse. You can continue to keep your head in the sand but Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva are on full view talking on smart phones at many a wedding.

    #1525830

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Ask an FFB about Lobster and ask a BT about it. An FFB would likely be repulsed by it, but a BT might have a problem if he smelled one.

    An FFB might become obsessed with the idea of eating a prohibited food to experience the taste.
    A BT who’s eaten lobster has made a conscious decision to stop eating it.

    #1525829

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Takes2-2tango,

    “The original question still remains even with all the bans in place
    How can one trust ones self.
    For example:
    Your out in idaho on a business trip and you have no kosher food,how can you trust yourself from not walking into wendys?
    Or your in bed and your very tired, how can you trust yourself not to miss zman krias shma?
    What kinda bans according to u are out there? So my question still isnt answered . Why are we only concerned about yrusting ourselves with intetnet?
    Do we trust ourselves with loshon hora??”

    This is the fallacy of reductio ad absurdum, and I doubt you’re making a serious argument. But I’ll share my personal answers anyway.

    1. Among the population who have and listen to rebbeim, there is not a widespread eating at Wendy’s problem. So making blanket gedarim for Wendy’s is superfluous, though as DY pointed out, if an individual has an unusually strong taiva, he should not even go anywhere near the restaurant. In contrast, there is a widespread misuse of smartphones/internet problem.

    2. There are actually halachos in place because we don’t trust ourselves to remember to daven/say shema. For example, if it is time to daven maariv, one should daven before eating the evening meal to avoid forgetting, getting tired, and going to bed. At the end of the day though, the spiritual dangers involved with smartphones are worse than accidentally forgetting maariv because you couldn’t stay awake. As far as oversleeping past the zman in the morning, it’s again not a widespread problem, but if one does have trouble getting up, he should for sure not trust himself and set an alarm clock. Changes to his sleeping habits if possible, or even a trip to the doctor might be in order.

    3. As others have written already earlier in the thread, we are concerned with trusting ourselves or having accidents in many different situations, hence hilchos yichud, hilchos nidda, much of hilchos kashrus, the time we stop eating chometz on erev Pesach, etc. etc. Your assertion that it is just the internet we worry about is spurious.

    4. No, we certainly don’t trust ourselves with lashon hara! Hence the laws against avak lashon hara, living in a place where lashon hara is rampant, hearing others speak it, etc.

    #1525808

    While Phil may have the wrong endgame ,he,sadly has merit to his post

    #1525840

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DovidBT,

    “A BT who’s eaten lobster has made a conscious decision to stop eating it”

    Thank you for stating this. I felt that the original comment was quite demeaning to BTs.

    #1525853

    commonsense49
    Participant

    Actually you can see a lot of the worst stuff on even a small smartphone screen. I know because I did it.

    #1525862

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its not deaming , In fact its praiseworthy

    it is a bigger mitzvah to eat Kosher if you are tempted not to, than if you are repulsed by a non-kosher food item.

    As a side note, I was once in Jackson Hole, WY and the whole town smells of BBQ-ing meat and all I had was some pasta that I bought from home. it was definatly tough to be there

    #1525876

    DovidBT
    Participant

    @zahavasdad

    It’s not demeaning , In fact it’s praiseworthy.

    I think the point was that you can’t make generalizations about an FFB’s vs. a BT’s response to a particular situation. People are individuals.

    I was in Jackson Hole before I became observant. Since it was in the winter, I think the prevailing odor was burning firewood. 🙂

    #1525884

    Undercover Bochur
    Participant

    HOW CAN YOU TRUST YOURSELF WITH INTERNET???!!!!?!?!?!

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