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the rav has waged war against the music industry in its current form. will he succeed in changing anything?
Before he is able to change anything people must know who he is.
R’ Amnon Yitzchak’s influence is stunning; he appeals to a much broader crowd and his oratory & media skills are legendary. I wonder why he chose this battle though; it’s not his style. I wonder why of all of this issues facing Khal Yisrael – other then spreading Yahdus to our not-yet-religous brethen , which he took to a totally different realm – he chose this one.
On another note-
Please hold for the standard knee jerk noise of “there’s nothing with…” without any logical statements to, just a gut based expression of feeling.
I doubt it.
I’m not sure the average person who listens to the music R’ Amnon Yitzchak is unhappy with, knows who R’ Amnon is.
EDITED
who is he and what is he trying to change??
who is he and what is he trying to change??
If he’ll place chazzanut on top, I’m all in favor of his war.
Definitely, Absolutely, Positively NO!!
Rav Yitzchak is a power house kiruv guru, BUT is not listened followed by most of his most tzebrenteh chevra. He certainly won’t reach and be accepted by the Hamon Am.
What exactly is this R’ Amon Yitzchak trying to change?
can someone explain what this is all about?
and what exactly is he trying to change in music? the songs? the guy who sings them? can somebody please explain
If you asur all Jewish music that has had any influence from non-Jews, all you will be left with is Arnold Schoenberg’s atonal music. I can’t imagine any of it being sung at a wedding.
I started a thread about this 3 weeks ago, it’s here – http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rav-amnon-yitzchok-discusses-music.
I saw that clip (its been out for a while). Wanna see real change in the music business? Have major rabbonim / rosh yeshiva agree not to attend a chasseneh where a pop star is hired (and at $10,000 a night, you can’t call them anything else).
And by attend, I mean not the chuppah, not the dancing. Just not show up. No matter who or how rich the baal simcha is.
Until then, the pop-star singer has the full endorsment of the establishment..no matter how many posters or ads they print.
(for the record, I’m a huge fan of most of the banned performers)
As far as Rav Amnon in particular, like all other bans, some will listen, most will not, but even if just one person makes a change in their music habits, Rav Amnon will feel he’s accomplished something.
And for those who don’t already know, the Afro singer in question is a band technician, who learned to mimic today’s top singers, so if anything, he’s not influencing us.. we’re influencing HIM.
(not to say, we don’t have our share of yiddishe singers who sing like real shkotzim, but this fella is not a good example)
Music is something rather wonderful. It is an expression of emotions, in a form that words do not do justice. We must ask a simple question – what emotions are our music expressing?
This applies to all music, Jewish and Non-Jewish. Often classical music expresses majesty, royalty, bravery, sacrifice, courage,goals, accomplishment…so many Chassidish nigunim are from Military marches of Europe & songs of the Royal courts; and applied to our royalty & mission.
while some of the new age Jewish music expresses lust & “just feel good” in a dumb way. The words are just along for the ride. One can sing any words to a tune of lust – it is still a tune of lust. Or stupidity.
charliehall; and all;
“If you asur all Jewish music that has had any influence from non-Jews”…
Influenced is one thing,
but a total copy of a goyishe song, just changing the words to hebrew or yiddish, (and not a slow song or march) but a wild bouncing club song!!! and we sing it by our simchos
when we are supposed to put Yerushalayim al Rosh Simchoseinu,
then we go ahead break it down to a wild prusteh club song?!!!
I’m as chilled out and open Minded as the next guy,
but there’s NO WAY that is ok! You can be in denial, but it will not change the reality of the situation.
And how pathetic is it that our own supposedly talented individuals in the music world steal totally goyish songs
and introduce them to our hamoyn Am? Do you think that’s a mitzvah? It’s a loserish thing to do. Make your own song!!!
you talentless copycat!! compose your OWN intro!!!
Do you think now, that your intro is a popular goyishe song,
it will help you bad compostion get popular?
perhaps, but that’s just sad!
bein_hasdorim how many jewish songs are actually copies from goyish songs??
cb1-
Yidden (MBD)& Asher Bara (Piamenta) come to mind. I’m sure there are more. Anybody?
how far is this going to go
most old school chasidish nigunnim be it belz ger ….
r all goyish songs or marches
the zohar explains [i heard from a rebbe of mine}that music can be elevated till the kisah hakovod
the words can be traif but the tune cant
so what r we going to do assur everything unless its a carlbach song
no more horahs by weddings
what do u think will happen, they will all go to the source
the real rappers popstars kol isha …..
is this what the rabbanim really want or do they think everybody is going to listen to shiurim all day?
this is peoples outlet
what about while driving? nothing like a good torah tape to keep u awake?
i think we should worry about other things like shaboss mitzvots to the best of our ability thats whats important not if a concert or a jewish singer is to rocky?
I hate to break the news to folks, but most “Jewish songs” are in the style of contemporary non-Jewish music, or even actual copies.
Two examples:
1. The most common tune used for “Maoz Tzur” is a German melody that was used by none other than Martin Luther HaRasha for Christian liturgical music.
2. The nigunim used at the oldest continuously operating Jewish congregation in America, Mikveh Israel in Philadelphia, are in the style of the music that was popular in 18th century colonial America.
I dare anyone to find a Jewish composer other than Arnold Schoenberg who wrote music that was not influenced by non-Jewish styles. (And I dare anyone to try to sing any of Schoenberg’s atonal compositions at a simchah or in shul. He did write a setting of “Kol Nidre” but I’ve never heard of anyone trying to use it on Yom Kippur.)
I have a completely different complaint regarding the music at simchahs: In most simchahs I’ve attended, it is FAR TOO LOUD!!!! I can’t even hear myself speak much less call my wife on my cell phone when she is seated on the other side of the mechitzah during the seudah.
When we got married we hired a klezmer band as we weren’t much interested in the modern pop stuff, and we read them the riot act that they were to keep the volume to a reasonable level. They did a great job.
What I think we may need is more creativity among Jewish musicians. It is really easy to imitate others’ forms, not so easy to do so in a way that elevates, and even more difficult to create uniquely Jewish forms. Do we offer our young people sufficient musical training and/or experience so that they may turn into the first class musicians? Do we honor our really great musicians like Cantors Helfgot, Herstik, and Fisher, Miller, Malovany, or Stark? Why aren’t we bringing them into our yeshivot to show that there is a Jewish musical form that elevates and serves HaShem? How many of us even daven Shabat morning in a shul with a professionally trained chazzan? And how many yeshiva students — even in MO yeshivot — have even heard of Arnold Schoenberg? He wasn’t just one of the most important Jewish musicians of the 20th century, he has a fascinating and inspiring tshuvah story and was one of only two people to predict the Shoah as early as 1938. (The other was Jabbotinsky.)
charliehall – just a funny question – HOW do you know he was one of the only two people to have predicted the shoah as early as 1938? i believe that many gedolim, the chofetz chaim included, knew what was going to happen much earlier than that.
correct me if i’m wrong.
emoticon613,
If you know of anyone else who wrote that millions of Jews would die at the hands of the Nazis and that Jews needed to get out of Europe as fast as possible, please cite! I’ve only seen statements from Schoenberg and Jabbotinsky. If any rabbis “knew” what was going to happen I’m unaware of any who made made any public statements or left us any writings to this effect.
Charlie – The mesech chochmah by R’ Meir simcha writes in the 1920s that one day germany will be a “shulchan aruch” of slaugther for the Jews, and that those who called Berlin their Jerusalem shall see the true germans…
But it is true, prewar jewry was not warned by Gedoley Yisrael to leave Europe. Had they known with clarity, surely they would have sounded the alarm bells. R’ Yoshe Berr uses this to prove that the Holocaust was a divine event; that the leading Torah masters were divinely blinded to it’s coming. We find a similar concept by the Churban.
charliehall – “If any rabbis “knew” what was going to happen I’m unaware of any who made made any public statements or left us any writings to this effect.”
In all fairness, even if such statements were made, things were not documented too often those days, and of the things that were recorded, many were lost in the Holocaust. I’m not saying that the Rabbonim did predict the Holocaust; I’m just pointing out that if they did, chances are we still might not know about.
So no more jewish music? Ok so goyim music is now allowed? Inneresting,..,,
No seriously you really can’t assur every kosher outlet, it really doesn’t work like that.
I have immense respect for R’ Amnon Yitzchakl but I think he is fighting a losing battle and if anything this will only make people more Anti-Chareidi- many of the singers he’s assering have brought out beautiful hartizge nigunim which can literally lift up your soul whilst listening to them.
Yes I agree they have brought out songs with beats but thats a reason to shred the cd????
Not chas vusholom questioning the Rav’s Psak just wanna get things clear.
Explanation?
noitallmr – i agree with you, but if you listened to the whole lecture he addresses that, twofold:
1) that by buying the CDs and employing them by simchas etc we are enabling them in their sins and going against daas torah and that if we boycott them they will have to give in to daas torah and thereby we will make them live according to the torah
and
2) a deeper point which he says (I know pple will disagree but I am quoting his view ask your LOR) that a song no matter how hartzig if sung by someone being “oveir” the torah in any way will only have a bad effect on the neshama and that the singers would need to do teshuva and then RE-sing/record any kasher tunes as a full shomer torah and mitzvos (ie being the person who is now fully listening to daas torah).
the above concept is very much like with davening where the seforim say that one explanation how a gezeira (sickness etc) can be broken thru tefillah is that the gezar din is on who you are NOW, but if you change yourself thru tefillah then the gezar din may no longer apply to you….and beyond that, you may have acheived the growth and tikkun you needed thru tefillah so you no longer need the gezar din to break you and change you…
he doesn’t say this, but number 2 above i have heard is also the premise upon which some poskim who say not to listen to some classical music base their view on as far as the people who wrote them, many had avoda zara or infatuation emotions in mind and they say when it stirs the neshama’s emotions it can be a negative “pull” and influence based on the kavana of the writers… (again not all poskim hold this way and ask your LOR!)
I’m not looking to get attacked, just trying to clarify for those who truly want to understand…
But hasn’t “jewish music” always been influenced by the country where the jews are living? Why is ashkenaz music or chazanut so similar to eastern europe/russian music and why is sephardic music or chazanut so similar to middle eastern music?
he addresses that too, he says there’s a machlokes if one can be mekadesh i.e. uplift a goyish tune, some rabbonim say no way, Rav Ovadia Yosef (he says) holds it is entirely mutar….however his main point is not supporting and enabling singers who are going against daas torah…
I think that there should be a committe, to listen to songs to see if their eidel and if their good,(that’s also a major issue, almost nobody is giving out good songs,) and then there should be a hechsher on the album.
Is music supposed to be less kosher than hand soap, and paper towels?
Chosson,
Hand soap and paper towels don’t require a hechsher.
Chosson:
B’Makom Sh’ein Ish….
They do this in EY all the time.
dveykus613, I hear your second point, however, the music you are referring to was played by someone who worshiped Avodah Zaroh. Yes, such music (especially if it is used for the Avodah), even if thy are beautiful melodies can have a bad influence on people. But I hope none of our Jewish singers come even close to such tummah C”V.
I just heard a story that a lady was extremely ill and her husband played a certain beautiful song to her and she had a Refuah…
I think he will be successful because Devarim Hayotizm min Halev Nichnasim El Halev.
chosson: i agree with u there should be a committee checking all songs but it will probably never happen however regarding myself i always have my rav listen to every song before it goes onto a cd to see if its ‘kosher’
I think I’m gonna start a business selling kosher air.
first in bottles, then i’ll start a neighborhood in Yershalayim
that has the Badatz hechsher for kosher acceptable breathing air.
I’ll sell apartments in this area and make a ton of money.
Kosher money with the Badatz hechsher, kept in a kosher wallet
Badatz hechsher, kept in my kosher pants, Badatz hechsher of course, held up with my kosher belt, made from leather of cattle that do not work on shabbos, Badatz hechsher.
Somethings are just nutty, aren’t they?
i don’t know about a hechsher. Hechsherus is for food. how about a haskama/ i don’t know some system that keeps these singers in their places.
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