Will Rav Amnon Yitzchak manage to change the music industry?

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  • #592194

    its_me
    Member

    the rav has waged war against the music industry in its current form. will he succeed in changing anything?

    #701490

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Before he is able to change anything people must know who he is.

    #701491

    Moq
    Member

    R’ Amnon Yitzchak’s influence is stunning; he appeals to a much broader crowd and his oratory & media skills are legendary. I wonder why he chose this battle though; it’s not his style. I wonder why of all of this issues facing Khal Yisrael – other then spreading Yahdus to our not-yet-religous brethen , which he took to a totally different realm – he chose this one.

    On another note-

    Please hold for the standard knee jerk noise of “there’s nothing with…” without any logical statements to, just a gut based expression of feeling.

    #701492

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I doubt it.

    #701493

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I’m not sure the average person who listens to the music R’ Amnon Yitzchak is unhappy with, knows who R’ Amnon is.

    EDITED

    #701494

    cb1
    Member

    who is he and what is he trying to change??

    #701495

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    who is he and what is he trying to change??

    #701496

    cantoresq
    Member

    If he’ll place chazzanut on top, I’m all in favor of his war.

    #701497

    artchill
    Participant

    Definitely, Absolutely, Positively NO!!

    Rav Yitzchak is a power house kiruv guru, BUT is not listened followed by most of his most tzebrenteh chevra. He certainly won’t reach and be accepted by the Hamon Am.

    #701498

    mw13
    Participant

    What exactly is this R’ Amon Yitzchak trying to change?

    #701499

    can someone explain what this is all about?

    #701500

    its_me
    Member

    for those who dont know who he is go to Wikipedia and learn about this amazing rav and what he has accomplished till now in terms of kiruv . to see just how seriously he is fighting to change the Jewish music scene go to his website. its called shofar. for example at last night’s shiur he broke popular jewish music cd’s and called on everyone to do the same.also last night he showed a video from a (NY?) chasuna where an African American was invited on the stage to sing ‘ binyan adei ad’ to show how our music is influenced by goyim. bkitzur he means business and he has other rabbonim backing him. he also mentioned a kol korei from 10 years ago where all the gedoilim banned concerts.

    #701501

    cb1
    Member

    and what exactly is he trying to change in music? the songs? the guy who sings them? can somebody please explain

    #701502

    its_me
    Member

    he is against the singers. he says some of the concerts are mixed , and their body movements are unacceptable.

    #701503

    its_me
    Member

    i started this post because i listen to music all the time and it puts me in a good mood. i heard the rav was against all music and all singers and was very upset but i went to his website to hear him out anyway. well i am glad i did because he taught this music fan a thing or two.(no i am not going to break my cd’s but now i do understand where he is coming from)

    he is saying that after the destruction of the beis hamikdash its not poshut to listen to music ‘stam azoi’. i was thinking about his words and while i cant live without music, i do see that our music resembles goyishe music, it makes us move like goyim, and it keeps us busy- so many times i find myself listening to music when i can just as easily pop in a torah cd. dovid hamelech says ‘lulei torosecha shashuai’ i as a yeshiva person, should be ‘meshasheaya’ myself with torah in my earphones more than music, not the other way around!

    true its my bechirah what to listen to when , but the whole industry has evolved in a way that it is overpowering and i feel that maybe some kids today would have a better chance at learning to get close to the eibishter through learning, as opposed to a nigun. because in the end of the day, the two ways to get close to hashem cannot be compared.

    there is a video on the tube that someone took of rav elyashiv shlita learning alone in his house. see it . then tell me if rav yitschak is not right by trying to tame the music scene. we have the real thing so why would we allow the jewish music industry to teach our children to worship singers and music like goyim?

    #701504

    charliehall
    Participant

    If you asur all Jewish music that has had any influence from non-Jews, all you will be left with is Arnold Schoenberg’s atonal music. I can’t imagine any of it being sung at a wedding.

    #701505

    fabie
    Member

    I started a thread about this 3 weeks ago, it’s here – http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rav-amnon-yitzchok-discusses-music.

    #701506

    bpt
    Participant

    I saw that clip (its been out for a while). Wanna see real change in the music business? Have major rabbonim / rosh yeshiva agree not to attend a chasseneh where a pop star is hired (and at $10,000 a night, you can’t call them anything else).

    And by attend, I mean not the chuppah, not the dancing. Just not show up. No matter who or how rich the baal simcha is.

    Until then, the pop-star singer has the full endorsment of the establishment..no matter how many posters or ads they print.

    (for the record, I’m a huge fan of most of the banned performers)

    As far as Rav Amnon in particular, like all other bans, some will listen, most will not, but even if just one person makes a change in their music habits, Rav Amnon will feel he’s accomplished something.

    #701507

    bpt
    Participant

    And for those who don’t already know, the Afro singer in question is a band technician, who learned to mimic today’s top singers, so if anything, he’s not influencing us.. we’re influencing HIM.

    (not to say, we don’t have our share of yiddishe singers who sing like real shkotzim, but this fella is not a good example)

    #701508

    Moq
    Member

    Music is something rather wonderful. It is an expression of emotions, in a form that words do not do justice. We must ask a simple question – what emotions are our music expressing?

    This applies to all music, Jewish and Non-Jewish. Often classical music expresses majesty, royalty, bravery, sacrifice, courage,goals, accomplishment…so many Chassidish nigunim are from Military marches of Europe & songs of the Royal courts; and applied to our royalty & mission.

    while some of the new age Jewish music expresses lust & “just feel good” in a dumb way. The words are just along for the ride. One can sing any words to a tune of lust – it is still a tune of lust. Or stupidity.

    #701509

    its_me
    Member

    fabie- thanks for the link. its feels so good to hear the truth even though it hurts. i hope i can make some type of change for myself because i have a good ear for, and love music.

    bp totty, we are influencing him with the beats and sounds we got from other goyim! he is singing foreign words to familiar beats, and we sing familiar words to foreign beats!

    #701510

    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    charliehall; and all;

    “If you asur all Jewish music that has had any influence from non-Jews”…

    Influenced is one thing,

    but a total copy of a goyishe song, just changing the words to hebrew or yiddish, (and not a slow song or march) but a wild bouncing club song!!! and we sing it by our simchos

    when we are supposed to put Yerushalayim al Rosh Simchoseinu,

    then we go ahead break it down to a wild prusteh club song?!!!

    I’m as chilled out and open Minded as the next guy,

    but there’s NO WAY that is ok! You can be in denial, but it will not change the reality of the situation.

    And how pathetic is it that our own supposedly talented individuals in the music world steal totally goyish songs

    and introduce them to our hamoyn Am? Do you think that’s a mitzvah? It’s a loserish thing to do. Make your own song!!!

    you talentless copycat!! compose your OWN intro!!!

    Do you think now, that your intro is a popular goyishe song,

    it will help you bad compostion get popular?

    perhaps, but that’s just sad!

    #701511

    cb1
    Member

    bein_hasdorim how many jewish songs are actually copies from goyish songs??

    #701512

    Moq
    Member

    cb1-

    Yidden (MBD)& Asher Bara (Piamenta) come to mind. I’m sure there are more. Anybody?

    #701513

    how far is this going to go

    most old school chasidish nigunnim be it belz ger ….

    r all goyish songs or marches

    the zohar explains [i heard from a rebbe of mine}that music can be elevated till the kisah hakovod

    the words can be traif but the tune cant

    so what r we going to do assur everything unless its a carlbach song

    no more horahs by weddings

    what do u think will happen, they will all go to the source

    the real rappers popstars kol isha …..

    is this what the rabbanim really want or do they think everybody is going to listen to shiurim all day?

    this is peoples outlet

    what about while driving? nothing like a good torah tape to keep u awake?

    i think we should worry about other things like shaboss mitzvots to the best of our ability thats whats important not if a concert or a jewish singer is to rocky?

    #701514

    charliehall
    Participant

    I hate to break the news to folks, but most “Jewish songs” are in the style of contemporary non-Jewish music, or even actual copies.

    Two examples:

    1. The most common tune used for “Maoz Tzur” is a German melody that was used by none other than Martin Luther HaRasha for Christian liturgical music.

    2. The nigunim used at the oldest continuously operating Jewish congregation in America, Mikveh Israel in Philadelphia, are in the style of the music that was popular in 18th century colonial America.

    I dare anyone to find a Jewish composer other than Arnold Schoenberg who wrote music that was not influenced by non-Jewish styles. (And I dare anyone to try to sing any of Schoenberg’s atonal compositions at a simchah or in shul. He did write a setting of “Kol Nidre” but I’ve never heard of anyone trying to use it on Yom Kippur.)

    #701515

    charliehall
    Participant

    I have a completely different complaint regarding the music at simchahs: In most simchahs I’ve attended, it is FAR TOO LOUD!!!! I can’t even hear myself speak much less call my wife on my cell phone when she is seated on the other side of the mechitzah during the seudah.

    When we got married we hired a klezmer band as we weren’t much interested in the modern pop stuff, and we read them the riot act that they were to keep the volume to a reasonable level. They did a great job.

    #701516

    its_me
    Member

    cb1- recently a version of ‘yofyofisa’ was released for sfira that incorporated a current goyishe song into it. then they labeled it the ‘alternative’ yofyofisa! the chutzpa! for me personally, i get a creepy feeling when i hear the young voices on that track singing such a current, goyishe tune. less recently ‘titanic’ was incorporated onto a jewish tape without the words (of course!?) and i am sure many here in the CR can add lots more to the list.

    if you are a music producer you surely know many many more. the time has come for the jewish music industry to ‘face the music’ and admit that its gotten out of hand.

    a relative of mine was at a concert in eretz yisroel and they introduced a singer there as ‘ the king of jewish pop!’ no less. jewish pop. do your kids know what pop is?

    #701517

    charliehall
    Participant

    What I think we may need is more creativity among Jewish musicians. It is really easy to imitate others’ forms, not so easy to do so in a way that elevates, and even more difficult to create uniquely Jewish forms. Do we offer our young people sufficient musical training and/or experience so that they may turn into the first class musicians? Do we honor our really great musicians like Cantors Helfgot, Herstik, and Fisher, Miller, Malovany, or Stark? Why aren’t we bringing them into our yeshivot to show that there is a Jewish musical form that elevates and serves HaShem? How many of us even daven Shabat morning in a shul with a professionally trained chazzan? And how many yeshiva students — even in MO yeshivot — have even heard of Arnold Schoenberg? He wasn’t just one of the most important Jewish musicians of the 20th century, he has a fascinating and inspiring tshuvah story and was one of only two people to predict the Shoah as early as 1938. (The other was Jabbotinsky.)

    #701518

    emoticon613
    Member

    charliehall – just a funny question – HOW do you know he was one of the only two people to have predicted the shoah as early as 1938? i believe that many gedolim, the chofetz chaim included, knew what was going to happen much earlier than that.

    correct me if i’m wrong.

    #701519

    charliehall
    Participant

    emoticon613,

    If you know of anyone else who wrote that millions of Jews would die at the hands of the Nazis and that Jews needed to get out of Europe as fast as possible, please cite! I’ve only seen statements from Schoenberg and Jabbotinsky. If any rabbis “knew” what was going to happen I’m unaware of any who made made any public statements or left us any writings to this effect.

    #701520

    Moq
    Member

    Charlie – The mesech chochmah by R’ Meir simcha writes in the 1920s that one day germany will be a “shulchan aruch” of slaugther for the Jews, and that those who called Berlin their Jerusalem shall see the true germans…

    But it is true, prewar jewry was not warned by Gedoley Yisrael to leave Europe. Had they known with clarity, surely they would have sounded the alarm bells. R’ Yoshe Berr uses this to prove that the Holocaust was a divine event; that the leading Torah masters were divinely blinded to it’s coming. We find a similar concept by the Churban.

    #701521

    mw13
    Participant

    charliehall – “If any rabbis “knew” what was going to happen I’m unaware of any who made made any public statements or left us any writings to this effect.”

    In all fairness, even if such statements were made, things were not documented too often those days, and of the things that were recorded, many were lost in the Holocaust. I’m not saying that the Rabbonim did predict the Holocaust; I’m just pointing out that if they did, chances are we still might not know about.

    #701522

    mybat
    Member

    So no more jewish music? Ok so goyim music is now allowed? Inneresting,..,,

    No seriously you really can’t assur every kosher outlet, it really doesn’t work like that.

    #701523

    its_me
    Member

    mybat, i don’t think the rabbi believes that he will succeed in shutting down the whole industry. that is impossible. As you and others have said its a good kosher outlet and its here to stay.

    i think he has more realistic goals in mind, but needs to go to the extreme in order to attain them.

    in the long run i think his efforts will pay off and add more kedusha to am yisroel and make the singers and their music more jewish sounding.

    #701524

    noitallmr
    Participant

    I have immense respect for R’ Amnon Yitzchakl but I think he is fighting a losing battle and if anything this will only make people more Anti-Chareidi- many of the singers he’s assering have brought out beautiful hartizge nigunim which can literally lift up your soul whilst listening to them.

    Yes I agree they have brought out songs with beats but thats a reason to shred the cd????

    Not chas vusholom questioning the Rav’s Psak just wanna get things clear.

    Explanation?

    #701525

    dveykus613
    Member

    noitallmr – i agree with you, but if you listened to the whole lecture he addresses that, twofold:

    1) that by buying the CDs and employing them by simchas etc we are enabling them in their sins and going against daas torah and that if we boycott them they will have to give in to daas torah and thereby we will make them live according to the torah

    and

    2) a deeper point which he says (I know pple will disagree but I am quoting his view ask your LOR) that a song no matter how hartzig if sung by someone being “oveir” the torah in any way will only have a bad effect on the neshama and that the singers would need to do teshuva and then RE-sing/record any kasher tunes as a full shomer torah and mitzvos (ie being the person who is now fully listening to daas torah).

    the above concept is very much like with davening where the seforim say that one explanation how a gezeira (sickness etc) can be broken thru tefillah is that the gezar din is on who you are NOW, but if you change yourself thru tefillah then the gezar din may no longer apply to you….and beyond that, you may have acheived the growth and tikkun you needed thru tefillah so you no longer need the gezar din to break you and change you…

    he doesn’t say this, but number 2 above i have heard is also the premise upon which some poskim who say not to listen to some classical music base their view on as far as the people who wrote them, many had avoda zara or infatuation emotions in mind and they say when it stirs the neshama’s emotions it can be a negative “pull” and influence based on the kavana of the writers… (again not all poskim hold this way and ask your LOR!)

    I’m not looking to get attacked, just trying to clarify for those who truly want to understand…

    #701526

    mybat
    Member

    But hasn’t “jewish music” always been influenced by the country where the jews are living? Why is ashkenaz music or chazanut so similar to eastern europe/russian music and why is sephardic music or chazanut so similar to middle eastern music?

    #701527

    dveykus613
    Member

    he addresses that too, he says there’s a machlokes if one can be mekadesh i.e. uplift a goyish tune, some rabbonim say no way, Rav Ovadia Yosef (he says) holds it is entirely mutar….however his main point is not supporting and enabling singers who are going against daas torah…

    #701529

    Chosson
    Member

    I think that there should be a committe, to listen to songs to see if their eidel and if their good,(that’s also a major issue, almost nobody is giving out good songs,) and then there should be a hechsher on the album.

    Is music supposed to be less kosher than hand soap, and paper towels?

    #701530

    charliehall
    Participant

    Chosson,

    Hand soap and paper towels don’t require a hechsher.

    #701531

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Chosson:

    B’Makom Sh’ein Ish….

    They do this in EY all the time.

    #701532

    its_me
    Member

    charlie hall- thats chosson’s point exactly. soap that doesnt need a hechsher has one and music that does need a hechsher does not.

    #701533

    d a
    Member

    dveykus613, I hear your second point, however, the music you are referring to was played by someone who worshiped Avodah Zaroh. Yes, such music (especially if it is used for the Avodah), even if thy are beautiful melodies can have a bad influence on people. But I hope none of our Jewish singers come even close to such tummah C”V.

    I just heard a story that a lady was extremely ill and her husband played a certain beautiful song to her and she had a Refuah…

    #701534

    its_me
    Member

    its been reported that one singer has come forth so far and accepted rebuke from rav amnon yitzchak and a beis din in addition to agreeing to comply with certain rules about his performances, so it looks like his tactic is working somewhat.. but there is a big show in rechovot this monday, and the rav of the city has already voiced his objection. i think this is the first major show since rav yitzchak announced his ban. lets see what happens

    #701535

    its_me
    Member

    rav yitschak has posted a video from the concert in rechovot on monday on his website shofar (fifth item from the top on the hebrew homepage) that blew me away in terms of what a concert can cause our youth to be exposed too. i wanted to know what the CR tzibur thought about it.

    #701536

    YehudaF
    Member

    I think he will be successful because Devarim Hayotizm min Halev Nichnasim El Halev.

    #701537

    cb1
    Member

    chosson: i agree with u there should be a committee checking all songs but it will probably never happen however regarding myself i always have my rav listen to every song before it goes onto a cd to see if its ‘kosher’

    #701538

    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    I think I’m gonna start a business selling kosher air.

    first in bottles, then i’ll start a neighborhood in Yershalayim

    that has the Badatz hechsher for kosher acceptable breathing air.

    I’ll sell apartments in this area and make a ton of money.

    Kosher money with the Badatz hechsher, kept in a kosher wallet

    Badatz hechsher, kept in my kosher pants, Badatz hechsher of course, held up with my kosher belt, made from leather of cattle that do not work on shabbos, Badatz hechsher.

    Somethings are just nutty, aren’t they?

    #701539

    i don’t know about a hechsher. Hechsherus is for food. how about a haskama/ i don’t know some system that keeps these singers in their places.

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