yichus from the chasam sofer

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  • #612219

    gg
    Participant

    I’m trying to track down our family yichus.

    My great grandmother,Rochel Waisfogel was a grandaughter of the Chasam Sofer, but we have no clue who was her mother, whoever knew is not alive anymore for us to ask them. We only have the matzevah in which it’s written Rochel bas Gedalia, nechda of the Chasam Sofer, and that she was born in Warsaw – without a date.

    Any clues? Please help.

    #1009607

    NJ_Mom
    Member

    My husband is a descendant of the Chasan Sofer. We have a detailed family tree going back a few generations. If I remember tonight, and if I can actually find it, I’ll try to look to see if it has any information that might help you.

    #1009608

    gg
    Participant

    to NJ_Mom: Thank you very much, that would be very helpful – in the meantime, my aunt told me that she remembers that they called her Ruchl. But she was niftar the year that my aunt was born so she doesn’t even have any memories of her, and my father was only 3 years old then.

    #1009610

    NJ_Mom
    Member

    I’m so sorry but I totally forgot about this and now that I was cleaning my drawers out for Pesach, found the family tree! Do you want to see it?

    #1009611

    walton157
    Member

    gg and NJ_Mom: My family also has yichus to the Chasam Sofer. So, it would be wonderful if NJ_Mom would share the family tree. Thank you.

    #1009612

    NJ_Mom
    Member

    I’m not sure exactly how I can share it. Any ideas?

    #1009613

    blockhead
    Participant

    Put the family tree on Geni.

    #1009615

    Epis
    Participant

    mods why was my previous post not posted? i was just adding to blockhead’s list of family tree site!

    #1009616

    Epis
    Participant

    myheritage or ancestry

    #1337687

    GershonM
    Participant

    Was This tree posted anywhere? Can I get a copy. Thanks

    #1337710

    yekke2
    Participant

    Once you’re here anyway…

    All “Chasam Sofer eineklach” pride themselves for being the progeny of the great Chasam Sofer – why don’t we ever hear you calling yourselves “R’ Akiva Eiger Eineklach”? Aren’t all Chasam Sofer eineklach automatically from the progeny of R’ Akiva Eiger?

    #1337740

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yekke: Who said otherwise. We pride ourselves on both.

    #1337815

    yekke2
    Participant

    Who said otherwise.

    Have you ever heard anyone introducing themselves as a Reb Akiva Eiger Einekal? It never happens. The first introduction is “I’m a Chassam Sofer EInekel”. It doesn’t even come into the same sentence.

    #1339635

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    For that matter, they are all the descendants of Yaakov Avinu. Why don’t they mention that? What greater yichus can you have than that?

    #1339638

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    If you go back a few hundred years, then most Ashkenazi Jews today are descended from most Ashkenazi Jews in that generation, I think. I’m not sure how far you have to go back, but I don’t think it’s all that far when you take into account that every generation your ancestors double.

    #1339745

    Joseph
    Participant

    Not exactly double, since there’s a lot of crossover yichus with the same people being your grandparents multiple times through different lines.

    #1339764

    yekke2
    Participant

    For that matter, they are all the descendants of Yaakov Avinu. Why don’t they mention that? What greater yichus can you have than that?

    I imagine that was said in jest. It is obviously very different – people announce Yichus as a sign of pride or prestige; it involves having lineage that others don’t. Whatever the ma’aleh of Yichus is, you trace yourselves to someone special. My question was why they all stop at the Chasam Sofer, but don’t continue one extra generation to his shver, R’ Akiva Eiger.

    #1339810

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Please correct me if I’m wrong. Rav Akiva Eiger was the Chasam Sofer’s second wife’s father. The CS may have had children from his first wife who are therefore not RAE einiklach.

    #1339807

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    It wasn’t a joke. If the point of yichus is to announce that you have lineage that others don’t, that’s really obnoxious and not befitting a descendant of Avraham Avinu.

    The idea of Yichus is to appreciate the fact that if you are descended from _____, it means that you have a certain potential as a result. Being the descendant of the Avos means that we have inherited the greatest potential possible and it is much more deeply ingrained than the potential one has as a result of being descended from more contemporary Gedolim.

    My point was that we don’t value enough what it means to be descended from the Avos.

    I get your point, but I’m not sure if you got mine.

    #1339790

    Joseph
    Participant

    Because it’s ben acher ben from the Chasam Sofer but not from Rav Akiva Eiger.

    #1339855

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Its all a matter of what family tree impresses who…beyond the first generation, there is unlikely to be much direct impact on a descendant. I’m sure for purposes of shadchanus among a small percentage of the tzaibur, being able to claim yichus to EITHER the Chasam Sofer or R’ Eiger would be a net positive but even then, most frum young men and women today are much more concerned about the attributes and midos of the prospective chasan/kalah than who their grandfather or great-grandfather may have been.

    #1339904

    yekke2
    Participant

    The idea of Yichus is to appreciate the fact that if you are descended from _____, it means that you have a certain potential as a result. Being the descendant of the Avos means that we have inherited the greatest potential possible and it is much more deeply ingrained than the potential one has as a result of being descended from more contemporary Gedolim.

    I am not a yachsan; I do not descend from any famously prestigious lineage; I always found it quite childish to boast of Yichus. Nevertheless, it isn’t just boasting, there is some sort of maaleh, although I don’t know what it is (I don’t think zchus avos is the correct answer). Are you saying that as long as you descend from the Avos, having other gedolim along the route is irrelevant? Or are you just decrying the condescending attitude of Yichus?

    #1339905

    yekke2
    Participant

    Please correct me if I’m wrong. Rav Akiva Eiger was the Chasam Sofer’s second wife’s father. The CS may have had children from his first wife who are therefore not RAE einiklach.

    You are correct that Reb Akiva Eiger’s daughter was the Chasam Sofer’s second wife. But from what I understand, the first wife died childless. He had 10 children from the second marriage.

    #1341315

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Are you saying that as long as you descend from the Avos, having other gedolim along the route is irrelevant?”

    No. (although I agree that boasting is childish – even worse, it demonstrates bad middos and shows that the yichus is meaningless since the person clearly did not inherit his ancestor’s middos.)

    “Or are you just decrying the condescending attitude of Yichus?”

    That was probably part of it. I think it was more about reminding people that being descended from the Avos is the greatest Yichus, so even if someone does not have “yichus”, they should realize that they actually have the greatest yichus.

    When it comes to the Avos, it is about zchus avos which is based on the fact that the Avos are out “shoresh” and all of us have inherited their qualities and therefore have the potential to be like the Avos (which is why we are supposed to ask ourselves, “Masai yagiu maasei l’maasei avosai?”

    When it comes to other Gedolim, I don’t think that is necessarily the case.

    #1341318

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Two nice ideas I have heard about yichus:
    1. It’s better to have descendants who have yichus than to have yichus yourself.

    2. It’s like the number 100. Yichus is worth 0. But when you take two 0’s and put a 1 in front, it becomes 100 (the 1 being your own middos).

    #1341328

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Yichus really means very little, there are non jews with good Yichus (And I mean JEWISH Yichus)

    #1341334

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Torah says you’re wrong, ZD. Shabbos 55a. People benefit from zchus avos for many generations.

    #1341335

    lakegirl
    Participant

    Both me and my husband are eineklach of the Chasam Sofer from different sons. We both take such tremendous pride having such yichus and do our best to show our alte (x’s a lot) Zaidy nachas from shamayim. Would love to see a family tree. Please post how one could take a peak.

    #1341338

    ayid
    Participant

    We too are eineklach from CHASAM SOFER AND RAK”E, and I always wondered the same question. I think the answer is, although we all now the greatness of R’ Akiva Eiger, bchaiov he wasn’t so poplar as the chasam sofer for the chas”s had a huge kehila and yeshiva, almost all rabonim in Hungary Czechoslovakia etc. where his talmidim or talmidim form the Kasav Sofer, and his sons and einklach where rabonim .. Bekitzur the Chasam Sofer was RABON SHEL KOL BENI HAGOLA, WHile R’ akiva eiger is famous for lomdim only that can spend a day understanding a Gilyun Hasas, or a week learing SHU”T R Akiva Eiger.

    I have another question, does any one know of einaklach from R’ Akiva Eiger that are not from the Chasm Sofer, other then the once that are Einklach from R’ Liebel EIger -Kotzk… ?

    #1341348

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Yichus really means very little, there are non jews with good Yichus (And I mean JEWISH Yichus)”

    How does that prove that it means very little?

    I actually wouldn’t be surprised if a relatively high percentage of geirim have “Jewish blood”

    #1341349

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    My point was that Goyim can be good people, and maybe the goyim who have “yichus” are better people as a result and/or more connected to G-d, etc.

    Another possibility is that yichus only applies to Jews.

    But either way, it doesn’t prove that yichus means nothing. (granted, you wrote “means very little”. It is possible that yichus does not mean so much, but I don’t think that is a good proof.)

    #1341350

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Because it’s ben acher ben from the Chasam Sofer but not from Rav Akiva Eiger.”

    Please reread the OP:

    “My great grandmother,Rochel Waisfogel was a grandaughter of the Chasam Sofer, but we have no clue who was her mother, whoever knew is not alive anymore for us to ask them. We only have the matzevah in which it’s written Rochel bas Gedalia, nechda of the Chasam Sofer, ”

    Perhaps you meant to say, “bas achar bas’?

    #1341352

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    King Menashe had Yichus from his Father king Hezikeyahu and see how much that meant

    #1341411

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lilmod Ulelamaid: That comment you quoted from me was intended to be a response to Geordie, not the OP.

    #1341428

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    LU

    The people I am referring to are NOT JEWISH, they have jewish fathers, but are not Halachically jewish.

    And there are plenty of cases where children of Gedolim clearly did not live up to the parents, King Menashe is the most obvious example, but he is far from alone.

    In fact right now there is an “Activist” who decided one day he was a woman and this person has lots of Yichus including from the Baal Shem Tov

    #1341495

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Lilmod Ulelamaid: That comment you quoted from me was intended to be a response to Geordie, not the OP.”

    I thought it was a response to Yekke. I don’t see what it had to do with Geordie’s comment, which was a response to Yekke anyhow. Are you sure you hadn’t meant it as a response to Yekke?

    #1341521

    Joseph
    Participant

    All Brits sound the same to me.

    But, yeah, the Ben Acher Ben was for Yekke’s question of “My question was why they all stop at the Chasam Sofer, but don’t continue one extra generation to his shver, R’ Akiva Eiger.”

    #1341499

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “The people I am referring to are NOT JEWISH, they have jewish fathers, but are not Halachically jewish.”

    I realized that. That is precisely why I wrote: “My point was that Goyim can be good people, and maybe the goyim who have “yichus” are better people as a result and/or more connected to G-d, etc.

    Another possibility is that yichus only applies to Jews.”

    “”And there are plenty of cases where children of Gedolim clearly did not live up to the parents, King Menashe is the most obvious example, but he is far from alone.

    In fact right now there is an “Activist” who decided one day he was a woman and this person has lots of Yichus including from the Baal Shem Tov””

    That is very true (at least the first point – I know nothing about the second, but will take your word for it), but it is not a proof that Yichus means nothing at all. It does prove that it doesn’t mean everything.

    As I pointed out above, yichus is only meaningful when the descendants live up to their ancestors’ examples. And there are certainly many people who don’t. But those that do have an added boost from their inheritance. (at least that is how I always understood it).

    #1341759

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    My point is you are a great person or a bad person not because your ancestor was a Gadol, but because of what YOU DID in life

    #1342591

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph – yeah, that’s what I thought. And that’s why my response was to quote from the OP to show that she/he is not a ben acher ben from the Chasam Sofer, so your response is not a good answer to Yekke’s question.

    #1342589

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD – I agree 100%!!!!

    #1342600

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Joseph – yeah, that’s what I thought. ”

    I’m glad we concur that all Brits sound the same. 😎

    #1346722

    Shopping613
    Participant

    I have great yichus, I’m a descendant of Avraham Avinu and Moshe Rabeinu- how good can it get?

    I’m also descendant from the chassam sofer apparently. We aren’t sure how, but it’s highly probable.

    #1346664

    yudaron
    Participant

    its very simple why.
    like most Gedolei Yisroel there are thousands of desecndants of RAE who are not Frum and not even Jewish.
    The Chassam Sofer was Zoche that almost all of his offspring are Frum Jews .

    Yes!
    all the offspring of the Chasam Sofer are automatically from RAE
    since he had no children from his first and third wives.

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