April 28, 2011 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #596494
need some answers, thanks.April 28, 2011 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #762614
am yisrael chaiParticipant
The feeling is that tisha b’Av includes all tragedies, including the shoah.
In fact, there’s a piyut that my shul says in the morning written by a rebbe referring to the shoah along with all the older ones.
Some feel that we would then have to have a day set aside for all tragedies and not just pick the shoah: a day remembering tach v’tat, a day for the Spanish Inquisition, etc.April 28, 2011 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #762615
The Jews were given a day to mourn all of our tragedies. That is Tisha B’Av. Also, setting it in the month of Nissan probably wasn’t a good idea, as we’re not supposed to mourn during Nissan.
While I don’t observe Yom HaShoah, I think it’s completely disrespectful of the people in Israel who ignore things like the siren. Everyone else is standing still. The country comes to a halt for 2 minutes. Is it so hard for you to do that also? Even if you don’t agree, don’t openly ignore it. You live in a country that made this a day of remembrance. At least don’t openly go against it.April 28, 2011 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #762616
Because we have Tisha B’Av for this purpose. And 2) because only the rabbonim can institute a new “celebration”.April 28, 2011 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #762617
We do remember the “shoah” but not necercerly on that date. In most comunities of hungerien decent thay say selichos on the 20th day of sivan (A day that was till the shoah only obsereved in the ukrein after the pograms). Also on 9th of Av there are many who say special kinos to remember the shoah.April 28, 2011 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #762618
Feif Un; I can totaly agree with what you wrote, to make a point to go out and show that you dont obsered is provocative and just stupid.April 28, 2011 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #762619
everyone basically said the answer so no need to repeatApril 28, 2011 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #762620
Imaofthree, I googled it & found these statements:
“Haraidim remember the victims of the Holocaust on traditional days of mourning which were already in place before the Holocaust, such as Tisha B’Av in the summer, and the Tenth of Tevet, in the winter”
“Thus, a situation has come into existence where religious forms of commemoration take place primarily on the Tenth of Tevet and on Tisha b’Av, while secular forms of commemoration take place primarily on Yom HaShoah, and either part of the population ignores the other’s day of commemoration”
…maybe someone can verify this???April 28, 2011 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #762622
We ‘celebrate’ by living as Frum Jews every single day. Wearing blue and white and waving a flag doesnt make you Jewish.April 28, 2011 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #762623
lets not talk lashon-hora here………..April 28, 2011 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #762624
To bring a source for what all here have referred to, that we commemorate all of Klal Yisrael’s tragedies on Tisha B’av, in Kinah 25 (?? ??? ???? ???), the paytan writes, about the 11th century European tragedies, “??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????”; in other words, we don’t add our own day of public mourning.
See ????? ??? ??”? ?’ ?”? ?”? for an explanation of how this is not contradicted by the fact that certain communities did, in fact, observe days of mourning in commemoration of tragedies which befell them.April 28, 2011 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #762625
“We” sure do comemorate the war years. Just not with perfomances or poetry readings.
Unless you call Kinos l’Tisha b’Av poetry, but I think that sells it way short of its true meaning.
Same goes for Yom Atzmaut. We make note of the land of EY each and every day. But IMHO, a blue and white flag is not mandatoryApril 28, 2011 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #762626
While we’re on the subject, I have a couple related questions.
1-Why do some (percentage? I don’t have statistics, just know it’s quite a few) shuls not say kinnos for the Holocaust on tisha b’av?
2-Why do we no longer fast on 20 sivan?
deiyezooger: Who still says slichos on 20 sivan? I want to go this year.
TikkunHazot: Which tragedies do we mourn on 10 tevet that didn’t happen around that time?April 28, 2011 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #762627
My take on it is this – the Shoah is in a category of tragedy all by itself. It is the first time in history that a concerted effort was implemented to torture and MASS-murder Jews in an efficient way all at once, to maximize the damage and annihilation. 6,000,000 neshamaos, men women, children, frum, not frum, some even not Jewish but considered to be, were MASSACRED just for the “crime” of their existence. And though it’s true that throughout Jewish history we see this type of oppression and violence against our people (for which Tisha B’Av Kinos are all-encompassing), just as what happened in Mitzrayim merited an entire holiday and Haggadah to retell it, so do we likewise IMO deserve at least one single day to remind ourselves that even when things are comfortable for us, the goyishe velt wants to wipe us off the map AND THEY DID NOT SUCCEED THIS TIME, EITHER, in spite of their very efficient gas chambers and ovens.April 28, 2011 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #762628
truth be toldMember
The chief Rabbinate wanted Asarah B’Teivas as the date.April 28, 2011 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #762629
chayav inish livisumayParticipant
because tisha baav is the day to mourn all tragedies that have befallen the Jews. there is no special day to remember the spanuish inquisition,crusade,etcetc… i think in one of the kinos on tishabaaav it says that the only day for mourning tragedies is tisha baav. also yom hashoah is in the month of nisan which is the time of redemption. therefore it is assur to have eulogies, so how can we mourn during thismonth??April 29, 2011 12:08 am at 12:08 am #762630
“deiyezooger: Who still says slichos on 20 sivan? I want to go this year.”
In most Chasidishe shuls who are of hungerien decent there is at least one minyon saying slichos, aldough most minyonim with people rushing to work tend to skip it.April 29, 2011 12:12 am at 12:12 am #762631
The two answers which I heard (which I’ve seen multiple times here) is that Nissan is happy, and Tishab Be’Av is the national day of mourning.
But don’t we also observe sefirah which is a national time for mourning in addition to Tishah BeAv, and it also falls out during Nissan?April 29, 2011 12:39 am at 12:39 am #762632
Nobody “celebrates” Yom Hashoah. “Observe” maybe.April 29, 2011 1:37 am at 1:37 am #762633
Oomis: is this worse than churban bayis rishon or sheiniApril 29, 2011 1:55 am at 1:55 am #762634
Where does it say that Tisha be’Av is to commemorate all tragedies? Reb Moshe’s chiluk between government-sponsored persecution and popular persecution is hard to understand.
But I hear, that there are problems with Yom HashoaApril 29, 2011 2:57 am at 2:57 am #762635
My take on it is this – the Shoah is in a category of tragedy all by itself.
For a different take on this, take a look at the Artscroll Kinnos on #25 (the one I mentioned earlier) where the author explains, in better words than I ever could, how all tragedies which r”l befall Klal Yisroel are actually an outgrowth of the churban habayis.
The very broad nature of the tragedy, R’ Moshe writes in the teshuva which I mentioned, is an indication that it is a product of our being in golus.
- 1-Why do some (percentage? I don’t have statistics, just know it’s quite a few) shuls not say kinnos for the Holocaust on tisha b’av?
The story is told about the Bobover Rebbe Zt”l that he felt that anyone in our dor is unworthy of composing a kinnah, until he saw in a sefer that anyone can. Possibly, some gedolim agree with his initial thought.
In Halichos Shlomo (in the section on Tisha B’av, I don’t have it in front of me for a precise citation), it is described how and why one year R’ Shlomo Zalman said R’ Weissmandl’s kinnah, but that the practice was discontinued.April 29, 2011 3:04 am at 3:04 am #762636
ItcheSrulik, are you asking what events that weren’t related to the seige of Jerusalem do we mourn on 10 tevet? On the Chabad site I read that some remember the Holocaust on that 10 Tevet…if that’s what you’re asking.
oomis1105, that’s actually something that most secular Jews (that I know) tend to miss. They think the Holocaust was the ONLY event where Jews were killed in Europe. But it wasn’t, it was the event with the most systematic & “effecient” killing. That’s what made it so bad.
And I just recently got into an argument with an Israeli(?) because he basically said that Jews had never been persecuted in Europe before the Holocaust! I mentioned to him that he forgot the Crusades, Inquisition, & various pogroms.April 29, 2011 3:50 am at 3:50 am #762637
Chayev; btw the spanish expulsion was on the 9th of Av 1492/5252April 29, 2011 4:09 am at 4:09 am #762638
“the Shoah is in a category of tragedy all by itself”
Perhaps, but it is still not anywhere near the tragedy that the Churban still is.April 29, 2011 4:20 am at 4:20 am #762639
Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l also opposed the institution of Yom HaShoah. Was he charedi or right wing?April 29, 2011 4:22 am at 4:22 am #762640
“btw the spanish expulsion was on the 9th of Av 1492/5252 “
Actually it was 7 Av.
The edict of expulsion from England was, however, issued 9 Av 1290/5050.April 29, 2011 4:25 am at 4:25 am #762641
Where does it say that Tisha be’Av is to commemorate all tragedies?
In the ???? ?? ??? ???? ???.April 29, 2011 4:42 am at 4:42 am #762642
i will never forget in seminary on yom hashoah when the siren rang one of our very esteemed rabbis was teaching us. and he made us all be silent and get up out of respect.April 29, 2011 5:07 am at 5:07 am #762643
I don’t think that the people who collaborated with the Nazi’s in their quest to kill all European Jews (I don’t mean literally of course — I’m talking about those Zionist leaders who didn’t want to pay to “absorb religious Jewry” in striking a deal with the Nazi’s) should decide on a day to commemorate those murdered in the Holocaust.
I also think that Tisha B’Av would be fitting to be the set date, being that The Great War (later known as WWI) began on Tisha B’Av. It was the aftermath of the war (precisely the Treaty of Versailles and the Weimar Republic)
that led to the rise of Hitler YM”S and the Nazi Party and eventually to the outbreak of WWII. Not to mention that thousands of Jews were killed and exiled during WWI.
The “Final Solution” was signed on Erev Tisha B’Av 1941 while the first trainload deportation from the Warsaw Ghetto to the Treblinka death camp occured on Tisha B’Av 1942.
Talking about the Holocaust: The Witness to History is a book I truly recommend. It is a true commemorative compilation that will serve as a memorial and remembrance of the genocide and persecution of the Jews in the hands of the Nazi’s.April 29, 2011 8:40 am at 8:40 am #762644
Shouldn’t the question be the other way – why was Yom HaShoah set up when there already was 9 BeAv? Answer that and you’ll have the answer to the OP. Why should they celebrate an arbitrary modern day creation?
(Though I do agree that those who don’t want to observe it should not do it in public)April 29, 2011 11:26 am at 11:26 am #762645
For those who dont understand reading poetry.
This is a book called “I never saw another Butterfly” it is a collection of poems written by children in Tereisinstadt, describing their life in that Ghetto.
And frankly the best observance of Yom Hashoa Ive ever seen was a dramatic reading of diaries from children in the Ghetto’s (Not Anne Frank) some were even with unknown authors.
One entry was from a girl in Lodz (author unknown) who stole food from her father because she was hungry and her reaction when she found out her father wasnt mad at her.
Another entry was from a boy in Vilna, writing about Ponary (The killing field for the Jews of Vilna) and everyone was scared to go to Ponary (He went there eventually as well) and his own thoughts about PonaryApril 29, 2011 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #762646
The two answers which I heard (which I’ve seen multiple times here) is that Nissan is happy, and Tishab Be’Av is the national day of mourning.
But don’t we also observe mourning during sefirah on the national level in addition to Tishah BeAv, and it also falls out during Nissan?April 29, 2011 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #762647
But don’t we also observe mourning during sefirah on the national level in addition to Tishah BeAv, and it also falls out during Nissan?
I’ve never seen this issue addressed, but two distinctions come to mind.
1) The mourning of sefirah is not a single day, it’s drawn out over a long period.
2) The tragedy which we commemorate is different than that of the churban; it’s the tragedy of the Torah lost upon the death of R’ Akiva’s talmidim.
It’s also likely that chachamim who instituted the mourning during sefirah understood that tragedy to be independent of the churban, whereas the other tragedies, as R’ Moshe writes, are an extension of the churban.
The idea that Nissan is a time of happiness would seem to be a support for those who keep the halachos of mourning after Rosh Chodesh.April 29, 2011 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #762648
You have the problem in reverse with Yom Hoatzmut, which is supposed to be (by design of its authors at least) a day of celebration — during the Sefira.April 29, 2011 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #762649
I believe the difference is how fresh the Holocaust is.
Mourning the Bais Hamikdash is a different type of mourning than the Holocaust. Hearing stories from survivors and passing on direct information is different than reading kinos.
I think its also a comfort to survivors and their decendants.April 29, 2011 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #762650
so mourn the two things differently, go and bring in survivors to tell of the Holocaust in your schools, read accounts by survivors, go visit and comfort survivors, talk about the Holocaust to your family, whatever you wish.
that doesnt mean we need to abolish our time held Torah practice of following the leadership of our Gedolim, and instead follow the establishment of an official day of mourning instituted by a secular, mostly atheistic government.April 29, 2011 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #762651
Your points are, of course, valid. “Charaidim/right wing orthodox” have been printing, discussing, and educating about the holocaust since its occurrence. A recent program has been developed for holocaust studies within the curriculum of yeshivos and Bais Yaakovs. A major component of pre – Tisha B’av programming in the summer camps has been focusing on the holocaust.
The issue under discussion is merely about setting aside a specific day for its commemoration.April 29, 2011 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #762653
TikkunHatzot: You’re arguing in circles. You say that we should commemorate the Holocaust on 10 tevet because it’s a day for commemorating all our tragedies. Then when I ask which other tragedies we commemorate you tell me that chabad (who I happen to know in their own shuls — chabad houses notwithstanding– don’t) commemorates the Holocaust.April 29, 2011 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #762654
The primary source for adding kinos on Tisha B’av for other events is Rashi in Divrei Hayamim 35:25, Vayekonen Yirmiyahu al Yoshiyahu. Rashi talks about the kina that Yirmiyahu said on Yoshiyahu, and then he says that we say it on Tisha B’av “Dugmas hatzaros sh’iru byameinu”. That means that since all tzaros in the world have their roots in the churban and galus, we always add the kinos on Tisha B’av. Rashi is referring to kinos on crusades, which were the tzaros that happened in his day. Shaali Serufa ba’esh was written by Maharam Ruttenburg on the burning of 24 wagons of gemaros in Paris in the 13th century. The day for adding Kinos and aveilus is Tisha B’av.
Does anyone know of a link where I can view Tanach with Rashi? I’m doing this from memory, and I’d like to get it exact.April 29, 2011 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #762655
I never said people SHOULD observe Yom Hashoah, just explaining a bit why it was pulled out.
No one thinks Yom Hashoah has a specific religious significance. Its a day of commemoration. It doesn’t take anything away from Tisha B’Av and no one I know who observes Yom Hashoah observes Tisha B’Av differently because of it.
DY, perhaps things have changed, but my RW school didn’t discuss the Holocaust very often and certainly less than once a year. I was exposed to it greatly from my grandparents, relatives, books, trips to Yad Vashem etc. My camp didn’t really do much either.
I do wonder if the reluctance of the RW/Charedi camp has more to do with politics than hashkafa. (Although, we could debate on how different they are, but different tangent really)April 29, 2011 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #762656
I’ve posted a link, which I hope will be allowed through. Here’s the text.
?? ?????????? ??????????? ???-???????????? ??????????? ???-?????????? ???????????? ??????????????? ???-???????????? ???-??????? ???????????? ????? ???-?????????? ???????? ?????????? ???-?????????? *
????? ???? – ??????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ?? ??????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? (?????? ?”?) ???? ?? ?????? ???’ (??) ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????
* ???? ?????? ?? ?????? – ?? ??? ??????April 29, 2011 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #762657
I do believe that the movement is to increase awareness because it was indeed somewhat lacking. I was also not taught about it formally in yeshiva but my rebbeim often told holocaust stories (even more so in camp), and as an avid reader of frum literature, (the CIS holocaust diaries series comes to mind) I was very exposed to holocaust stories and themes. One of my rebbeim is a survivor, and we heard much from him.April 29, 2011 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #762658
Thanx, DY! I guess I had most of the key words, but missed the full lashon.
And to your next comment: Couldn’t it be that the reason these were discussed more in camp, because that is when the 3 weeks/9 days/Tisha B’av falls?April 29, 2011 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #762659
Your welcome, and yes, I’m sure that’s why; as I mentioned earlier in the thread, the holocaust discussions in camp were part of pre – Tisha B’av programs.April 29, 2011 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #762660
ItcheSrulik, you misread my posts. I didn’t try arguing one way or the other.
Read my posts again, both of them say that they are what I found online; the first one I was asking for someone to verify & the second one I was pointing out what I read on Chabad’s site. I never said that Chabad does it, I just said that Chabad’s site gave that reason and I’m aware that they don’t “do” everything that they post on their site, since some of it is just for educational purposes of what others do & why. (I would post a link to where it says it on their site, but I thought that link-posting isn’t allowed).April 29, 2011 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #762661
am yisrael chaiParticipant
(Off topic, my message was in yellow for hours directly under the OP while many other messages were printed.
I just joined this month so I have no idea what that was about. Does anyone know?)April 29, 2011 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #762662
“Oomis: is this worse than churban bayis rishon or sheini “
Of course not, and who said it was? Certainly not I. I said it is in a category by itself SPECIFICALLY because it was the most systematic, organized, and efficiently carried out mass murder of Jews in history (though clearly throughout history, Jews have been oppressed and murdered simply for being Jews). And the fact that it took place in so-called civilized modern times, makes it stand out even more. This does not in any way, shape or form, diminish the double tragedy of both Churban Bayis Rishon and Sheini, something which changed the face of Yiddishkeit until such time as we merit the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdash (b’korov).April 29, 2011 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #762663
Dont take it to heart, probebly just an oversight.April 29, 2011 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #762664
Another reason that I can see for marking the Day of the Shoah, is that it is most relevant on a personal level to so many of us who have either lost people in the Holocaust or knew people who were survivors. Before anyone jumps down my throat, we are all supposed to mourn the Churban as if it happened yesterday, and I am sure many of us do cry bitterly as we read Kinos. In fact, there was a non-Jewish King who chanced to pass by a shul on Tisha B’av and was extremely moved when he found out that the kehillah was crying for the Churban, soemthing which had happened centuries prior to this. So it is incumbent upon us to feel likewise a sense of deep mourning that will not be healed until yemos hamoshiach.
But it is much easier to relate and mourn on a personal level to a tragedy that has occurred in our own generation, or that of our parents. And I think that’s why it is not out of line to recognize the Shoah for the devastation that it caused to people of our own time.
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