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It’s not all or none, and ???? ????? ?????? ?????.
Your “valid” rejoinder means that there’s nobody more capable of making klal (or even prat) decisions more than you?
ZD,
“Daas Torah if someone asks if they should buy a Honda, Toyota or a Chevy (People do ask such things incredibly) and you get an answer”
Like I’ve mentioned earlier, you’ve got to stop making these things up.
However if a person asks if he should get a Chevy, Toyota or Honda as opposed to an Infiniti or Mercedes, that may very well fall under what is appropriate to ask of a Rov.
edited – again
Saying half a story is the same as lying Mr. ZD
zahavasdad,
So is it Daas Torah if someone asks if they should buy a Honda, Toyota or a Chevy (People do ask such things incredibly) and you get an answer
Do you really think that there are rebbes out there who order their adherents to buy Toyota Siennas, threatening cherem to anyone seen driving a Honda Odyssey or G-d forbid a Kia Sedona?
One would certainly ask for a friend’s advice before making a big purchase if he thought the friend had some insight; why is it such a horrible thing to ask for your rav’s advice (or bracha), if he is your mentor and friend?
Your “valid” rejoinder means that there’s nobody more capable of making klal (or even prat) decisions more than you?
Why is that person “pseudo” Da’as Torah, vs. an expert on the subject matter?
???? ????? ?????? ????? doesn’t give capabilities to someone who doesn’t have them. If not, we would be discussing Nevuah, not Da’as Torah. All ???? ????? ?????? ????? means is that the Sanhedrin is law, no matter the qualifications, not that Yiftach, Rava, or Rabbi Amital is a Navi (or has Ruach HaKodesh, or Da’as Torah, or other capabilities) like Shmuel was.
However if a person asks if he should get a Chevy, Toyota or Honda as opposed to an Infiniti or Mercedes, that may very well fall under what is appropriate to ask of a Rov.
That is a Tznius and Tzedaka question, and appropriate even without the concept of Da’as Torah
Why is that person “pseudo” Da’as Torah, vs. an expert on the subject matter?
Which person?
???? ????? ?????? ????? doesn’t give capabilities to someone who doesn’t have them. If not, we would be discussing Nevuah, not Da’as Torah. All ???? ????? ?????? ????? means is that the Sanhedrin is law, no matter the qualifications, not that Yiftach, Rava, or Rabbi Amital is a Navi (or has Ruach HaKodesh, or Da’as Torah, or other capabilities) like Shmuel was.
If daas Torah means extending what you ask a talmid chochom into areas beyond Torah, then the same way, despite not having a R’ Akiva Eiger or R’ Moshe Feinstein today, we still find someone who is a talmid chochom to ask our shailas in Torah to, we would also find a talmid chochom to ask our non Torah shailas.
“That is a Tznius and Tzedaka question, and appropriate even without the concept of Da’as Torah”
So you too are saying that ZDs claim is specious.
Was your editing of ZD’s words to say “Daas Torah..” instead of “SO IS IT Daas Torah…” specious?
Which person?
For medical issues, a doctor. For legal issues, a lawyer. For political issues, a liar 🙂
You are the one who said you won’t mention specific people.
If daas Torah means extending what you ask a talmid chochom into areas beyond Torah, then the same way, despite not having a R’ Akiva Eiger or R’ Moshe Feinstein today, we still find someone who is a talmid chochom to ask our shailas in Torah to, we would also find a talmid chochom to ask our non Torah shailas.
Why? We don’t (and didn’t) ask Rav Moshe where our donkeys were when we lost them.
So you too are saying that ZDs claim is specious.
I can’t comment on cars, but if we need to go further, I don’t think anyone asks their Rov if they should have Chex or Cheerios for breakfast.
“I can’t comment on cars, but if we need to go further, I don’t think anyone asks their Rov if they should have Chex or Cheerios for breakfast.”
1) Who says people do so assuming that th y are asking this of Daas Torah?
2) Would you use a mocking tone if a person asked this of a therapist?
3) Chex or Cheerios or what else. Like is it kosher?
Or should I eat those even though they are not pas Yisroel?
Mod 29,
ZD was expressing his incredulity that someone should ask a Rav about a car, regardless if it is constantly seed Daas Torah.
And you see that other commenters agreed that it is a real shaila, at a minimum.
So there was nothing specious about my comment.
I asked about your editing, not your comment.
The torah Rav Chaim learns is very important to this world, every second is precious and invaluable
You would interrupt his valuable learning to ask him your important shaila if you should buy a Honda Accord, Toyota Camry or a Chevy Malibu?
zahavasdad,
The torah Rav Chaim learns is very important to this world, every second is precious and invaluable
Do you really believe this, or are you saying it because it’s what you think “Chareidim” believe?
You would interrupt his valuable learning to ask him your important shaila if you should buy a Honda Accord, Toyota Camry or a Chevy Malibu?
Would Rav Chaim interrupt his learning to perform a chessed? I would think so. Giving advice to a friend or talmid is a chessed. And where would you draw the line? Should Rav Chaim refuse to answer any shaila because it would interrupt his learning?
Is it silly to ask a shaila about whether to buy a Honda Accord vs. a Toyota Camry? Sure, I think so. But 1.) I have no evidence that there is a rampant problem of gedolim being pestered with automobile questions, and 2.) what does the fact that there are silly people in the world have to do with the debate regarding Daas Torah?
There is a story regarding Rav Moshe I once read, where a woman would call him frequently to ask very simple shailos, and would even call back to ask the same shaila again, or to double-confirm with him what his answer was. One of his attendants (or sons, I cannot remember) became angry because of the woman’s behavior, feeling it was disrespectful and a waste of the rav’s precious time. But Rav Moshe stopped him from rebuking the woman, and said that she was acting this way because she was a nervous and fearful person by nature, and could not act differently. In other words, to Rav Moshe, doing a chessed for this woman trumped his time.
The car question is a metaphor for ANY silly question asked for a Gadol. I dont know if Rav Chaim was asked if someone should by a Honda Accord or a Toyota Camry (I have heard people asking a Shailia which car to buy) . It seems that point was lost and people took it literaly. I can tell you I have heard really silly questions that were easily answerable that people got “Daas Torah” on nonsense that any normal human being could have answered.
As far as Rav Moshe and the Simple Shaila question, yes Ive heard that story, but I have also heard stories where people would ask annoying Shailos and then got the Shammai treatment
ZD,
You keep harping with your silly straw man argument.
No one is asking R Chaim which model car to get. Not are they asking a thing similar. Unless it is a family member.
It is more than a little bit arrogant of you to determine what is a a “silly” question and to assume that you know what or what is not a legitimate question.
But aside from that, R Chaim obviously feels that it is ok for people to ask shailos, part of his schedule is answering letters that come to him. And that is beside Kabbolas Kahal.
I suspect the real reason why people make snarky remarks about Daas Torah is because they believe that they know at least as much as “some old out of touch guy sitting his little room”. (???).
Such a sentiment has been expressed in these very forums more than once by the commenters who always belittle the concept of asking Rabbonim eitzos.
I suspect the real reason why people make snarky remarks about Daas Torah is because they believe that they know at least as much as “some old out of touch guy sitting his little room”. (???).
Absolutely. And contrary to that he has mentioned on several occasions in different threads that it is out of reverence for the Rav that he feels the questions are “silly”. Sort thru your annoyances carefully so they can fit into the appropriate boxes.
On the other hand, ZD, tho I hear your respect for the rav in your comment, it is probably best not to speak knowingly about a realm that is out of your experience. And that goes for all the rest of us as well.
“In other words, to Rav Moshe, doing a chessed for this woman trumped his time.”
At the very same time, to a caller who should have known better, Rav Moshe politely told him (the story goes) that the early AM hours are for his learning, not shaylos. The story with the woman is an indication of his greatness, not that people should ask him the silliest questions at all hours of the day.
Why should the caller have known better? He knew better after Rav Moshe told him.
The caller, as I heard the story, was Rav Shmuel Berenbaum, who went through a sugya for many days, and asked Rav Moshe a big kashya, which Rav Moshe immediately answered to Rav Shmuel’s satisfaction. He told Rav Moshe it was good he had just learned the sugya, to which Rav Moshe responded that he hadn’t learned that sugya in years.
He was so impressed by Rav Moshe, that he called him again, and then again, at which time Rav Moshe told him that t he reason he gets up so early to learn is that this was the only time he gets to learn uninterrupted.
. (???).
Is this a “Lammed” as in “Lo Alayinu”, or some other abbreviation? Not sure why “Lo Alayinu” would apply, although “Chas M’Lihazkir” might.
I suspect the real reason why people make snarky remarks about Daas Torah is because they believe that they know at least as much as “some old out of touch guy sitting his little room”. (???).
BS”D
Even Daas Yochid won’t admit that anyone has Da’as Torah. Perhaps you, Mod 29, would like to explain what Da’as Torah is, who has it, and why people should listen to proclamations that claim to be “Da’as Torah” instead of their own Rov?
Personally, that is what I see as the main “Da’as Torah” concern, the globalization and subsequent restriction expected of the rest of the Klal because of “Da’as Torah”. If my Rov decides he needs to ask a specific prat to his Rebbe, and his Rebbe needs to ask a Gadol, then the trail moves back and my Rov answers based on his understanding of my personal circumstances (which he knows well), then Kol HaKavod.
I see no reason to listen to grand proclamations made over the phone that anyone who uses the internet should have their children thrown out of schools, or that vaccines are a hoax, whether those handlers claim the person who said it has Da’as Torah or not.
However, if you want to tell me (as Rav Moshe seems to write in his teshuvos) that Da’as Torah (similar to DY) is the ability to answer halachic shailos without personal negius, both from the economic, social and political spheres, I’ll agree to the concept, but you will have a hard time finding anyone today without such negiyos.
Even Daas Yochid won’t admit that anyone has Da’as Torah.
This is not true, I just won’t name names.
This is not true, I just won’t name names.
Same thing.
DY. I think you are mixing up two stories. But, it is really not the point of the conversation at hand, so forget it.
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