Murdaugh Verdict – Circumstantial Evidence without Motive

He admits to being a liar and a thief, on a gigantic scale – so he’s already facing a prison sentence exceeding his likely lifespan. Then he drops his alibi (admits he has been lying all along) and admits he was present at the murder scene close to the time of the murders.

If he was a Yid being tried by a Sanhedrin, he could convince them he is not guilty. If he had an serious alibi, he would have presented it. He can’t complain about the jury (he was a well known and locally respected celebrity), and the jury didn’t believe him. It should be noted he was NOT sentenced to death.

Jewish justice would not be any different
No witnesses, no warnings
Actually, I always wondered – does Jewish law ever talk about jail?
Now

They jury came to a guilty verdict after three hours of deliberations in a single afternoon, street a month long trial chock full of contradictory complicated testimony and detailed evidence from both sides.

The American justice system is a farce.

Two additional points:

1. Using 12 random people off the street, in a system that proudly insists on including lowlives, drunks and the homeless in the jury pool, who are experts in nothing, can be uneducated in basic life and are of no particular moral standing, to decide the fate of an accused’s life, is the height of rishus.

2. There’s a necessary tension regarding either giving the benefit of the doubt to the accused and acquitting him if his guilt is uncertain, even if his guilt is likely yet unproven — versus not giving him the benefit of the doubt if guilt is likely but unproven, and thereby convicting him in such circumstances, essentially using a system of guilty unless proven innocent. In a moral system we use the rule of innocent unless proven guilty; America claims to follow this principle but actually that claim is a lie as they frequently convict innocent men, and certainly often convict accuseds whose guilt was clearly not proven.

3. Correction to typo in previous post above: It should read “AFTER a month long trial” (not ‘street’).

When there’s doubt, it’s far better to risk letting a guilty man go free than to risk an innocent man spending his life in prison.

I have not followed this trial too closely but I agree with ujm 100% on his sentiment towards the justice system. Although it is better here than practically anywhere else.

Mentch1 , right, bd had a mitzvah to do justice, they are not simply applying rules and not caring about the outcome

First
I made an error
At least one rishon (rambam Sanhedrin 24:4) holds BD can kill outside the strict rules
An ex he brings is Shimon ben shetach and his execution in one day of an entire, witches coven
He says BD had the right to do what they wanted to either protect yidden or make an example of people. Not l’doros but as horas shah
Second
As I said this guy is guilty
He’s admitted to numerous financial crimes
And a goy is chayiv misah for that
So why are you losing sleep over this?

mentsch1: Beis Din executing outside the normal rules, that you refer to, can do so for any widespread societal issue. If there’s a lack of tznius problem they can execute every woman in public with uncovered knees or wearing pants.

Have you ever seen a Walmart selling live crickets as food? I have. You can advocate executing half or more of the gentiles in the country for violating the Sheva Mitzvos against eating a living creature, and thereby being chayiv misa.

And as the Rambam defines Christianity as Avoda Zora, you can advocate it for all Christians, even the ones with a phobia of eating crickets.

And how many Goyim aren’t guilty at some point of stealing a pen in school or in the office, anyways, even if they aren’t Christian and don’t eat crickets.

We don’t have beyond reasonable doubt in halacha but he did admit to other crimes which could rack up years in jail.

UJM: Ever Min Hachai is not applicable to crickets (see Tosefta Maseches Trumos, Perek Tes). Also, crickets in Walmart are being sold as animal food (for frogs and other pets) not for humans. Also, see Harambam Hilchos Rotzeach Perek Daled, Halacha Ches where he brings the halacha of beis din killing someone indirectly so long as they establish his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

mentsch
Incarceration is not a Torah concept
In Torah a murderer is sentenced to death. If there’s not enough proof (2 witnesses and warning) he goes free. A thief goes free if he returns the stolen goods. If he doesn’t return them, he is sold as a slave until shmitta.
Incarceration is an invention by the gentiles. It’s cruel and inhumane. God’s laws are compassionate.

Joseph, what would you use to replace the jury of one’s peers system in America. A realistic proposal please. Just wondering.

Besalel,
Rmo are from live castrated bulls.

ConcernedMember: A standing panel of judges who are educated in the law and of known high moral character would certainly be far better than 12 random people off the street.

There is an idea of kipa/jail for the cases where beis din is sure of the offense but does not have required eidus. I don’t know how prevalent this was. Also, don’t know what it continued into the times when death penalty was abolished. There are also exceptional cases – punishing mosrim/informaers – that endangered whole kahal. One process was for the kahal to appoint one shaliach who then deals with the methods and participants of the execution and hiding the body to isolate the kahal from government retaliation (not always successfully).

mentsch,
I am interested to know where the Gemara discusses jail.
It goes without saying that the society needs to be protected from dangerous people, but it doesn’t give anyone the right to lock someone up for life in a tiny cell, and treat them like subhumans. Have you ever seen how they treat people on death row? It can take 20 years until the death sentence is carried out. You might argue that giving them an extra 20 years to live is a chesed, it’s made to exhaust all legal options. True, but why do the accused need to be abused in every single way during those 20 years? This is not justice, this is cruelty, this is a sin even according to Noahide laws.
The justice system in USA is a huge failure, because it’s a man made system. Moshe Margaretten has tried to change things, he was successful B”H, but it’s only a drop in the ocean.
Incarceration is the most cruel man made invention. It has no place in our Torah.

Rif
Actually I would never say “it’s a Chesed “ in terms of people on death row. I would kill them on the same day they are convicted. Bc that’s the halacha. Bc it is considered cruel to let them linger in limbo.
As for your second post I have no idea what you are talking about. It sounds like you want to rehabilitate gang bangers. It sounds noble. But it’s not. Noble is creating a society that has no tolerance for violent offenders and hunts them into extinction thereby setting an example for everyone.

Rif, please start with Sanhedrin 81 and Rambam Hilchos Rotzeach 4:8.
Please let us know what you learn from there.

From simple reading, it looks like the kippah is, yes, for lifelong sentence, but the conditions are such that we are not expecting him to collect social security. Not clear how often this was used, given scant references.

Ujm
You are reaching. You will notice that in all my posts on the subject I made reference to violent offenders.
The only time I implied jail for stealing is because people were arguing that there was not sufficient evidence to convict him of murder. On that, I made the point that if you didn’t feel that you had enough evidence for a murder conviction than add on the fact that he is for sure a big thief and you can assuage your conscience for tossing him in jail.
But to answer your question, no, I am not a fan of jail for nonviolent offenders.

After it having been proven that there is one murderer in the Murdaugh family, the Smith family is going to dig up Stephen Smith who died under very suspicious circumstances .
It was a “hit and run” with zero signs of a hit and run.
This time it is connected to Buster Murdaugh.