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As is well known, the State of Israel describes itself as a both a “Jewish” and “Democratic” state. (Without jumping on the separate issue of how Jewish or democratic it really is, which is NOT the subject of this thread.) In order for both of those things to be true at the same time, it is necessary to have a Jewish majority. The demographic breakdown of Israel’s population sectors and their respective birthrates (which can easily be found online) clearly indicates that the Chareidim bear the vast majority of the burden of maintaining that Jewish majority, with the RZ coming in a distant second. The most militantly secular Jewish Israelis, not surprisingly, do not have enough children to replenish their own population, aside from being the most likely demographic to emigrate or intermarry. The Arab birthrate is lower than what it used to be, but still much higher than the secular Jewish rate, and for obvious cultural reasons both of those rates are unlikely to change dramatically. All of this means that, like it or not, without the Chareidim the future of Israel as a Jewish state is far from assured. Seeing as the Chareidi birthrate is directly connected to their ideology, leads one to question the wisdom of trying to get Chareidim to “integrate into Israeli society”, which is a dog whistle for “becoming less Chareidi, or not Chareidi altogether”. Unless one subscribes to a “Post-Zionist” ideology, which many anti-Chareidi agitators do, and has no need for a “Jewish” state, just a “democratic state of all of its citizens” For those who do want a Jewish state, this is the biggest long term existential challenge to Israel. Without a Jewish majority, Israel would eventually become the fourth Muslim majority nuclear power, after Pakistan, France, and the UK.
So, my questions are:
Does anyone have an alternative plan for maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel, that does not involve the Chareidim?
Why is this issue not part of the equation of “sharing the burden”?
Without a Jewish majority the IDF becomes irrelevant. PLEASE NOTE: I am not interested in more debate on the subject of Chareidim serving in the IDF, or emotional arguments about the obvious difficulties of IDF service. The reality is that the demographic is something that absolutely needs to be dealt with. The vast majority of Chilonim, given the choice, would rather go to the IDF for three years and then live their lifestyle however they choose, than commit themselves to a Chareidi lifestyle (even if only on this one issue) even if it would free them from IDF service. So, like it or not, the Chareidim are bearing a burden, directly relevant to the survival of Israel as a Jewish state, that most Israelis wouldn’t trade their burden for.
Please no deflections, ad hominem insults, appeals to emotion, discussion of real or perceived flaws of the Chareidim or any other group, suggesting that telling the truth on this subject is “bad PR”, etc. Just a straight, coherent, logical answer to the above two questions ONLY. Thank you.
The majority of population of the medina is NOT Jewish.
There is nothing meaningfully “Jewish” about the medina.I understand that you are trying to ask a question to the antisemitic audience of “Zionists” who are HAPPY that the medina is not “that type” of “Jewish” and certainly considers all types of apikorsim and minim as “Jewish”.
But how can you, a self-identified Torah Jew, endorse this lie that the masses of mechalilei shabbos (including tinikei shnishbu IF they even exist in the zionist medina) as “Jews”? How can you endorse the lie that the medina is “Jewish”? Just to win a political argument? Is the Torah worth so little to you?What’s so important that Jews constitute a majority?
The answer, of course, is that Zionism cares about one thing and one thing only: Zionism. The Zionists have stated long ago that they would rather have Zionism without a State than a State without Zionism.
In other words, Zionism is not only idolatrous, heretical and has made tremendous problems for Jews for over a century, Zionism is also simply suicidal.
Somewhat related, a well known Zionist politician’s wife openly stated that she’d rather her child marry an Arab than (liHavdil) marry a chareidi Jew.
That’s why the Zionists, if given the opportunity, would literally commit “national” suicide if it meant shmading the chareidim, which is, in fact, what the Zionists are currently doing, as you pointed out.
The secularists will respond that they are carrying the burden on the “democracy” side of the Jewish and democratic” definition because if left to the chareidim, Israel would become a theocracy similar to Iran. I’m also not convinced that the descriptor of “burden” appropriately describes the definition. One could also say efforts at mass immigration would solve the “burden,” since about half of the world’s Jewish population live in the diaspora. Or for that matter, a program to find and recruit the many many Jews by halacha who are descendants of conversos. Creating and running these types of programs would take at least as much effort as the burden of having families too large to support by your own means.
This isn’t us vs them. We are am Yisrael. We are brothers and sisters. When someone else comes to kill your family, why is it their job to defend you? And why is it only your job to have children?
We all have a responsibility to one another. Kol Yisrael Areivim!
Being part of a nation, of a society, of a people and of a family demands more than being present. It requires participating. Hareidim participate in maintaining the Torah values within our society. And sometimes, as my mashgiach often told us, our roles change. Sometimes a kollel yungerman comes home to find that his wife is struggling with an old sheitel, or is embarrassed to go to a simcha because she doesn’t have a nice dress. My mashgiach was very clear that when you reach a point where your family needs the parnassah, your role changes. Now you have a chiyuv to do more.
As members of our family, we all have a chiyuv to do more. To do less asking what you do for me, and more asking what we can do for another. Every family or marriage counselor will tell you that when you start asking what the others are doing for you, the relationship goes downhill fast.
We need the chilonim. We need chareidim. We need dati leumi. We need every holy yid in our family. When our family is being physically hurt, we all stand together. In our tefillos, our tsedaka, our chessed and sometimes, by being Moser nefesh for one another.
Your entire premise tears at our entire mesorah for what it means to be a Yid. Please stop demanding more of others, and start asking what you can do for others. This is the only way forward for our entire people.
@jdb
how can you be kofer in the Torah and claim that chulonim are part of “Klal yisroel”, that shomrei shabbos are, chalila, brothers with “michalilei shabbos”?Do you not have a moshgiach to ask what means “kol yisroel areivim”? do you not know how to pick up a Rambam to know who and who isn’t called “yisroel”. Have you never learned the basics of “mordin v’lo ma’alin”?
I hope your answer is simply that you never learned any of this, and your just putting your zionist polluted amharutzes on display.
If there are any Jews who have someone coming to kill – chas v’shulem – their family, I hope you are helping them evacuate to safer places and not telling them to stay and fight it out.
jdb, great post.
please clarify:
so your mashgiach is saying that you don’t need to wait for the wife to actually say that she needs more income, you can, and should, observe it yourself without her saying it?
and related question – could you also try to anticipate this happening, a couple of years in advance?The joke supporting this theory is that chilonim typically have up to 3 children: with the third, children start outvoting parents in the family democracy, and parents cannot withstand the balagan, while religious Jews run their family as a king & queen monarchy …
Whole world is studying now how to increase number of children, with decrease caused by urbanization and affluency. It seems that economic policies – paying/reducing taxes for extra children, free kindergartens are not helping … maybe the best way would be for religious Jews to show the rest the beauty of having children and raising family. Invite someone for a shabbos meal, maybe.
There are also non-charedi religious families that might not reach into double-digits but are still way above 2.
And a swe started discussing in another thread, the challenge is how would a charedi community transform from a minority that complains to a majority that governs. I presume this will require a changing mindset with large number of people starting going into important jobs and the army. Alternatively, the country can discover oil or specialize in diamonds, and then pay guest workers and contract army like some rich Arabs do.
Reality speaking, can we even have a state controlled by frum Jews? If all Zionists gave up control, and handed the reins over to frum Jews, can such a state even exist?!
I don’t think frum people have the capability to rule the government effectively and torahdik. There is too much corruption and inconsideratation from Frum Jewish politicians. They each have their own Daas Torah which a lot of times is antitheses with each other.
The only time religious Jews can run a government is when Moshiach comes, and all deceit will be abolished. Until then, the non religious people can rule.
Thoughts.
anon > , can we even have a state controlled by frum Jews?
It is a sad fact that you are asking this question. If Torah gives us a guideline for life and gemora is full of discussions how to have yashar courts and government, then we should be able to demonstrate those qualities when in public life. The fact that you are not sure is a sign that there are some hesronos in the Torah we learn & practice.
Very succinctly:
1) No, there is no plan for that. Obviously. Why? Because:
a) Our politicians – including Charedim I will add – are interested in staying in power over anything else.
b) Having large families is considered to be a choice.
c) The government has a tendeny to kick issues not viewed as essential further along down the road to be dealt with at a later time.2) Because “sharing the burden” is limited to the IDF, not maintaining a Jewish majority, democracy or anything else.
My questions for you are:
1) What you sort of recognition do you want the Charedi public to receive for making what is largely perceived to be a life choice. A medal? Blanket military exemptions? Eternal public funding? Free housing, electricity, etc.? The exclusive right to rule?
2) What’s your plan? Expel anyone who can’t produce a shtar yuchsin?anon1m0us, The problems associated with a state controlled by Frum Jews include:
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in maintaining roads or bus routes.
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in collecting or processing garbage.
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in maintaining embassies in foreign countries.
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in Air Traffic Control.
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in generating and distributing electricity.
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in catching and prosecuting shoplifters and car thieves.
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in building bridges or collecting tolls.
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in purifying and distributing water to all.
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in analyzing the performance of government agencies.
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in regulating the flow of products in and out of seaports.
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in regulating banks or stock brokers or stock exchanges.
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in the training, hiring, and payrolling of hospital employees.
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in ensuring that workers are treated fairly by employers.
Frum Jews, especially Chareidim, are NOT INTERESTED in defending the people and land from invaders and terrorists.
The only thing they care about — ***** ONLY ***** THING THEY CARE ABOUT — is studying Talmud 100% of the time.
Everything else, they ignore or laugh at.
They even laugh at people who study Tanach, because
ONLY TALMUD counts, and everything else is nonsense to them.Babylonian Talmud, tractate Pesachim, page 112A:
Rabbi Akiva taught his son Rabbi Yehoshua:
…Do not live in a city whose leaders are scholars.(I assume this is because Torah Scholars are not interested in
performing the mundane tasks that are necessary to maintain a city.)תלמוד בבלי מסכת פסחים דף קיב/א
:צוה רבי עקיבא את רבי יהושע בנו
,בני אל תשב בגובהה של עיר ותשנה
.ואל תדור בעיר שראשיה תלמידי חכמיםLol.
Banishment of corruption and inconsideration is a precondition of establishing and maintaining a state …this sounds comical , as the most inconsiderate and corrupted of people succeeded in maintaining a state for over 8 decades now ….
It seems rather that corruption plus inconsiderateness are prerequisites for maintaining a state
any further commentary is totally superfluous …
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.@YYA
You correctly point out the Charedim by demographics alone will at some point become a majority. Being a part of the state requires those within it to take part in the essential functions of it in order for it to maintain itself. This includes maintaining the infrastructure (eg, electricity, waste disposal etc) as well as having functioning healthcare and other professional services, and security. When the charedim do become the majority, how do you see the charedi establishment adapting to these needs given education in many of these fields are shunned entirely? This is not an attack or criticism but if you are asking the question about demographics then surely this must be asked as well. To be clear, I am not attacking charedi society but genuinely interested in how this will wrk.@YYA
You correctly point out the Charedim by demographics alone will at some point become a majority. Being a part of the state requires those within it to take part in the essential functions of it in order for it to maintain itself. This includes maintaining the infrastructure (eg, electricity, waste disposal etc) as well as having functioning healthcare and other professional services, and security. When the charedim do become the majority, how do you see the charedi establishment adapting to these needs given education in many of these fields are shunned entirely? This is not an attack or criticism but if you are asking the question about demographics then surely this must be asked as well. To be clear, I am not attacking charedi society but genuinely interested in how this will work.Square root is very concerned about motsi shem ra … and rodaif …. of certain specific people
but he is blind to his own motsi shem ra , blatant shkarim and rodaif of hundreds of thousands of innocent hardworking people.
Cf his totally unhinged rant a few post above .
Am wondering whether he forgot to take his tablets ….
If it wasn’t so terrible it would be comical ….
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you think haredim can’t run a medina ?
then you also should think haredim can’t run a city .
haredim are currently running cities in EY and in the US
so why would they not be able to run a medina
they will learn …
.In my opinion it is similar to the Tale of Two Cities. The Haredis lives in whole different environment then the chalonis. Why should they fight to protect a government they feel discriminants against them. The Chalonis think that because they control the Supreme Court they can force the Haredim to fight their war. A war that they themselves don’t want to fight. There were draft laws before, which required them to declare that Torah was their occupation in order to get the draft exemption, which they did. Since the students could not work they remained in yeshiva longer. However this created other problems the government had to provide services for the poor and since they didn’t work they couldn’t pay taxes. The government need them to work in order to not be a burden
The only thing the government can do is put them in jail. Going to jail is not really a problem for them since they can probably still learn, daven with a minyan and get three meals a day there. So why join the army. The government needs them to willing join the army not having soldiers that don’t give a dam and wouldn’t fight.yankel, give me an example of a charedi-run city that does not rely on subsidies?
not sure about statistics in Israel, but select some in US and check out census statistics on federal programs. I did not do this analysis yet because I am scared, so please do.
SqRoot, thanks for reminding us of this gemora. Any meforshim there?
Abba, you describe that all learning is in order to get a draft exemption? Is it that bad?
@yankel berel
Where did I say they can’t run a medina? But with running a medina comes responsibilities as well. Jobs which charedim typically do not take will need to be filled, be it in STEM fields or infrastructure and engineering. These are challenges Charedim are going to have to meet and I am interested how that will look given the current community aversion to these fields. I’m not being antagonistic but wondering how this will happen.
Always Ask Questions: I am not saying that ALL learning is for draft exemption there are many yeshiva students who do join the army including Religious Zionist, Chabad to name a few. Past draft laws had required yeshiva students to declare that learning was their occupation which is why here in America after a few years of learning majority of them go to work and support their family. In Israel were they are not allowed to work legally and learning is their occupation or a long time so they become addicted to that way of life and remain a burden on the government.
IzoBar: I am sure you are aware that in agriculture Israel imports thousand of workers from Africa, India and Thailand to name a few. In construction too thousand of workers are imported to replace the Palestinians. These fields can be taught in Haredi Colleges, if need be, but the government has to win the hearts of the Haredim.@izobar
Jobs which charedim typically do not take will need to be filled, be it in STEM fields or infrastructure and engineering. These are challenges Charedim are going to have to meet and I am interested how that will look given the current community aversion to these fields.
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If there is a need , they will set up courses accommodating their standards.
I have a study partner who is a fully haredi engineer who is makpid on every halachik detail.
Do you think haredim cannot master engineering ?
I have a haredi neighbor who has a doctorate in mathematics, also makpid on every halachik detail.
Do you think haredim cannot master mathematics ?Community aversion is a consequence of the moral degradation of the surrounding society .
When the majority will be haredi this problem should have disappeared.
.Am still waiting for square root to delete his unhinged rant
he should appeal to the mods to delete it
it is clearly defamatory
and clearly shkarim gasim
I cannot understand how square root can allow his name to remain associated with such vile comments …
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.Always Ask Questions: I am not saying that ALL learning is for draft exemption there are many yeshiva students who do join the army including Religious Zionist, Chabad to name a few. Past draft laws had required yeshiva students to declare that learning was their occupation which is why here in America after a few years of learning the majority of them go to work and support their family. In Israel were they are not allowed to work legally and learning is their occupation for a long time they become addicted to that way of life and remain a burden on the government.
IzoBar: I am sure you are aware that in agriculture, Israel imports thousand of workers from Africa, India and Thailand to name a few. In construction too thousand of workers are imported to replace the Palestinians. These fields can be taught in Haredi Colleges, if need be, but the government has to win the hearts of the Haredim which it is not doing.Always ask: Most religious male Jews want to learn Torah and what I am saying is when they turn 18 and don’t want to go into the army. The government forces them to declare that learning is their occupation. The secularist thought that after they would want to earn money and then they would be drafted.
If the government arrests them they will just sit in jail where they will have lawyers insuring they can learn, daven and have three meals. You are claiming that you want them to share the burden and join the army. Would you then also share their burden by raising their ie the Haredi standard of living. So let say the standard of living is $5,000.00 per month. Would you say those who earn more then that amount should be taxed so that everyone earns the same amount? After all everyone should share the burden.
Izobar There are many industries which Jews don’t seem to want to take jobs such as Agriculture, Construction and home care for the elderly which are filled by Africans, Indians and Thais to name a few. The same thing can be done here. You know that for a time the Israeli were thinking about having the Chinese run all their harbors . In Israel the Supreme Court would never let the Haredim run the government. They wouldn’t even let Bibi change the way the Supreme Court is appointed. The Supreme Court is the only part of the government held by the leftist and they will never give it up.Abba > The government forces them to declare that learning is their occupation.
I do understand the social dynamics here. Same as welfare in US “forces” some groups to not work for several generations already.
But an honest assessment is that Israeli government supports people whose occupation is Torah and earlier roshei yeshiva were imploring their students to learn at full capacity to keep that declaration honest (I brought a direct quote from Mir RY before). So, nobody is forced by the government to lie and pretend to be learners when they”d rater work (or do secretly work). I honestly don’t understand how such bizayon can come up to a mind of someone who earnestly learned Torah for a number of years.
A related mussar: one of my teachers saw a Philly chochom learning with a talmid, and a talmid brought tea to drink. They finished the blatt, and the talmid noticed that the chochom did not finish tea. Aware that you can only drink in beis midrash when you learn, the talmid suggested learning another blatt. To which the chochom retorted: I drink to learn, but I don’t learn to drink.
yankel> I have a haredi neighbor who has a doctorate in mathematics,
I also know people like that, and most of them have pretty reasonable views. But I want to point out that many such professions require life-long education. In truth, most current white-collar professions require life-long education. So, will the community be able to pick up those jobs?
And we are not talking about just being able to be lawyer for car accidents. Xome of them have to compete on world-wide basis – high-tech economy and everything defense-related. Not just to get a customer, but also to stand to the adversaries. And it is not just time for a person to train, and it is also a time for the community to accept these new developments.If the community is full of propaganda against anything “modern”, will they be able to stop doing that? If people move into leadership based on such positions, how will they turn around? I hope they will, but it would be good to have a tangible proof of that. So far, those who learned how to interact with the society do it outside of charedim. Negative selection, if you will.
To sum it up, if you want to have observant economy in 2040, you need to start teaching English and math in elementary schools today.
Is Square root still standing behind his vile rant ???
and is he still accusing somejew and katan of being motsi shem ra and a rodef ???
WHEN WILL SQUARE ROOT DELETE THIS DESPICABLE POST ???
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.I see in the news that a Charedi MK has no problem davening for soldiers welfare at the government meeting. So, maybe a first step could be introducing explicit davening for chayalim in the charedi shuls? This being the first step in changing the language people use in the street.
When will square root take responsibility ?
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.Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in constructing new buildings with their own hands.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in harvesting crops with their own hands.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in working as Air Traffic Controllers.
Who will do those jobs, in a country that is 100% Chareidim?
Square root has lost his whole credibility by first shouting from all the rooftops that he is against motsi shem ra
and then himself spouting all types of baseless antisemitic accusations against many innocent hardworking people , who I personally know and recognize as such .
am betting that square himself is not ‘interested’ in building houses ‘with his bare hands’
nor is he ‘interested’ in picking fruit with his bare hands either …
am disgusted by his two facedness …..
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.Somejewiknow (who does not know enough), are you familiar with the Gemora in Pesochim, perek Ha’Isha, in which HKB”H told Hoshea, the prophet, that the Jews have sinned (including avodah zorah); to which Hoshea suggested that HKB”H exchange them for a different nation, and HKB”H got angry with him? Any comments?
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