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So, this is an interesting problem.
The prenup basically makes that Beis Din of America is the arbiter on the divorce.
But, what if BDA no longer exists?
Or, even worse–what if BDA still exists, but it is after the big upcoming split in orthodoxy, and BDA goes with the conservative?
You think that is impossible? Not impossible at all. And I read the agreement; there is nothing that provides for either eventuality. I don’t know how anyone can sign it, or anyone can feel safe having signed.
Good thing my roshei yeshiva say not to anyway.
Rav Eliashev and others paskened a Get from a husband with this type of prenup constitutes a Get Me’usa, and thus an invalid Get. She remains married to him even after the Get.
Bigger people than you say to use it. You don’t like it, don’t use it. I believe the Rav in my community won’t be mesader kiddushin unless the couple has one.
There are many problems with any organization’s attempts to invent a new halacha. Perhaps a better agreement might be to agree that in event of divorce, the wife picks the Beis Din, since she is the one with problems if there is no “get”.
In some countries there is an generally recognized Beis Din, sometimes with official status, but there are usually multiple subgroups and if one of the factors in the divorce is religion, that is likely to be a problem. One doesn’t know in advance what country one will be living in ten or twenty years in the future, or what that country’s policies will be. In the USA, policies have varied between total respect for a Beis Din in settling matters of divorce between Jews, to making it a crime to go to a Beis Din for a “get” unless you already had a divorce from the government.
Of course the solution would be for people getting divorced to act rationally and not trying to rip off each other, but that verges on relying on a ??.
This is a stupid post and an ad hominem attack on the Modern Orthodox community.
And this is not invention of a new halakha.
Sure it is. R’ Willig is your strawman, since he is the posek who authorized the Prenup.
How would the RCA be involved with the Conservative Movement? Your insinuation is that people affiliated with YU are somehow inclined towards that perspective, when they are the finest of the finest in Orthodoxy. R’ Schachter, R’ Willig, and all of the great rebbeim at YU are gedolim of the highest caliber.
And the text of that prenup is borrowed largely from Nachlas Shiva.
Rebdoniel: It is a new “invention” to specify which Beis Din will litigate a matter that hasn’t yet to arise, now knowing the conditions under which it will arise. As it is, the kesubah (together with the body of halacha) creates a duty to go to a “Beis Din” when ending the marriage. The RCA addenda is new (though a few others have tried it, including some non-Orthodox), as part of an effort to make it easier to get the assistance of the American courts to help when one party (usually the husband) doesn’t want to give a “get” (either because he is illegally shaking down the wife’s family for money, or because he doesn’t want a divorce). If the parties were “modern Orthodox” (or whatever) when they married, still are when the divorce, and haven’t moved to a different country – there isn’t a problem — but if one party has changed lifestyle, or has moved, there is a problem and the RCA method won’t help.
A better solution to the matter might be for the community to adopt a policy by which the wife stipulates which Beis Din she wants (since she is the one who can’t remarry with a “get” and whose children will be mamzer if she does), and perhaps offers to pay the legal fees of the party whose spouse if refusing to go to Beis Din.
It is a (minute) problem, but your solution is no better. What if the wife wants to go to Rabbi Sally’s Bais Din for Women’s Rights? If I had to bet, the chances of an individual woman going Conservative is much higher than the chance of the RCA being wrested out of R’ Willig and R’ Shechter’s hands (especially considering that the trend among RCA recent musmachim is to the right, not the left).
Historically much was done to prevent women from becoming Agunahs. Rav Moshe would invalidate Adim from a wedding after the fact in order to declare the marriage not valid and no get needed.
And Ive read Seforim that discussed Iffy Gets like one in Hawaii especially in case where the husband was not too keen on giving one.
It is a new practice to take a hard line on this issue
Rabbi Schachter is a gadol in learning, but certainly not someone who is good for public relations. I stand 100% by what I said about him vis-a-vis his odious remarks on women, non-Jews, the Rosh haMemshala, etc., all of which are true. His remarks are available in the public sphere to be viewed. Saying over the truth is nothing a person has to make teshuva for.
ZD – You’re off. There is a big difference to be Mattir Agunas than to break normal Halacha in the first place. Throughout the generations the Poskim were always trying to be Mattir Agunos with Kulahs. This prenup and the NY State “Get” law just throws out Halacha that Chazal instituted. Actually, all these things do is prevent people who follow these two things, even by accident, from remarrying. Because now, most Frum people who keep Halacha, won’t marry them.
PLEASE – stick to the topic, and not get into a fight about whose Rabbi is bigger.
zsdad: Rav Moshe never did any such thing, such as later invalidate witnesses from an Orthodox wedding.
PBA,
Listen to the moderator and keep things on topic.
Health is 100% correct- the poskim throughout the years have utilized tons of creative thinking and have done everything possible to avoid the agunah crisis.
Rebdoniel: Now you are showing some clear ignorance. I would hate to think where you get your information. R’ Schachter made odious remarks about women? Just because some moron leftist thought that R’ Schachter saying that a wedding is perfectly Kosher if a monkey read the Kesubah meant that R’ Schachter thinks that women are monkeys doesn’t mean that R’ Schachter has made “odious remarks about women”, as you put it. Next time fact-check before you make such claims. (Also, the famous line about the prime minister was taken out of context and put on Youtube. I should know. I was there.)
That is, IMHO, a very good reason why women don’t learn gemara. They hear a legal/technical term like Maaseh Kof, and they take it personally and go get all insulted.
To bring it back on topic, the prenup says 2 things:
1. Each spouse agrees to appear before a panel of Jewish law judges (dayanim) arranged by the Beth Din of America, if the other spouse demands it, and to abide by the decision of the Beth Din with respect to the get.
2. If the couple separates, the Jewish law obligation of the husband to support his wife is formalized, so that he is obligated to pay $150 per day (indexed to inflation), from the date he receives notice from her of her intention to collect that sum, until the date a Jewish divorce is obtained. This support obligation ends if the wife fails to appear at the Beth Din of America or to abide by a decision of the Beth Din of America.
The Nachalas Shiva was a sefer of shtaros published in 1664 by Shmuel Ben David Moshe Halevi, and one of the forms he included was a tenaim almist exactly similar to the provisions in the prenup, and he says that this dated back to the Takanos Shum, the authoritative communal enactments adopted in the early Middle Ages by the leaders of the German communities of Speyer, Worms and Mayence.
Popa had great foresight 13 years ago, in this OP. Indeed, the BDA has gone to the left/Conservative.
We need a new pre-nuptial agreement which requires that
every new child be DNA-tested, as-soon-as-possible [ASAP],
to determine if the husband-of-the-mother is the father of the child.If the test result is negative, then it should be published in
Jewish newspapers, like: Yated, YWN, Matzav, Jewish Press, Binah, etc.In this way, we can prevent mamzerim from happening, IYH.
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We need as new pre-nuptial agreement which requires that,
in the event of divorce, the wife will NOT receive more
than the amount specified by The Ketubah.There must be no alimony or child-support,
only the amount written in The Ketubah.__________________________________________
In the event that divorce happened because the wife
committed infidelity, the pre-nuptial agreement should
specify that she receives NOTHING from her ex-husband:
no alimony, no child-support, and no ketubah money.__________________________________________
Those women who are innocent,
they have no reason to complain about any of this.SQRT, a more effective:
a pre-nuptial agreement that specifies that both chasan and kallah read books about marriage, child rearing, anger management and passed an online test and a test in person on how to change a diaper.on your items:
– Halakha is surely against looking for mamzerim. In cases of doubt, rabbonim are going out of the way to find way to mattir. One rav told me that he came up with a list of ways to mattir in a very difficult case where there was a lot of confirmed information. When he called up a T’Ch to check and went through part of the list, the answer was “this is enough already”.
– ketubah arrangement evolved over time, see Ketubot – first it was $$$ held in the house, but then husband will be too quick to say “divorce” (like Muslims do 3 times?), hand over the money. After a couple of more options, the current one developed with a lien on husband’s property that might take a beis din to unwind. This points that changes are possible, but they should be done to balance all sides so that people continue getting married.That’s first. The reason a mamzir is a problem is because he’s impacted _genetically_ by how he was convinced. That’s why he can’t marry anyone who isn’t a mamzir. Cuz he psychologically won’t be able to. Y’all don’t _really_ understand the Torah. So sorry
Second a get is a very nice thing and has become necessary because we have to nullify all the promises made under the chuppah but I don’t believe a get the way we say is actually _necessary_. Beating up the other party to “make him choose freely” is stil a form of force. So our way doesn’t exactly fallow common sense. Maybe we should read the actual text, understand the concept and see if we are actually doing this correctly cus this doesn’t fallow reality
Ok let’s get down to brass tax. A mamzir isn’t a child born outside wedlock lol or a child born from a woman who is separated from her husband. A mamzir is actually a child born from a woman who _cheated_ and is still _with_ her husband. Thank you. An illegitimate Child born outside wedlock doesn’t change the child in _any_ way. Maybe only spiritually. That’s not what a mamzir _actually_ is. Thanks
My definition of a mamzir is the offspring of a women who was married according to Jewish law and wasn’t divorced legally by Jewish law. There are many irreligious Jews who were married according to Jewish law and were either divorced civilly or not according to accepted Jewish law,. Who then got married and had children. These children are mamzirium. If the mother was never married or married but not according to Jewish law the offspring is not a mamzir no matter who the father might be. Nor does the mother still have to be living with the father. The key factor in determining the status of the child is:
A) Is the mother Jewish? If she is not Jewish according to Jewish Law the child is a goy not a mamzir.
B) Did the mother have a Jewish wedding according to Jewish Law? If it wasn’t a valid wedding according to Jewish law then the child isn’t a mamzir
C) If the wedding was according to Jewish Law and there was no Get? Then future offspring MAY be mamziruim.
D) The father of the offspring, not the husband, who impregnated the mother must be Jewish according to Jewish Law? If the father is a goy the child will not be considered a mamzir.A Interesting question would be what if the the wife is trying to get pregnant and she uses artificial insemination using someone else’s sperm. What is the status of the offspring.
Abba_S:
Based on that, anytime anyone is considering you marry a BT or even the child, grandchild or great grandchild of a BT, they need to thoroughly investigate the Yichus of that person, specifically all the marriages, divorces, mesader kedushins and gittin, of all that prospective groom or brides parents, grandparents and great-grandparents to check a) whether each and every of the marriages were valid under Jewish Law and b) of the marriage was valid if any subsequent separation/divorce had a gittin that was fully valid under Jewish Law, and if G-d forbid not, any subsequent children from such a woman would be considered to be mamzeirim along with all future offspring of that mamzer. (And thereby render and potential marriages with those offspring as impossible.)
In the Talmud it specifies which mother’s lineage has to be checked prior to marriage to a Cohen. There are many people who will not marry into a BT families. Perhaps this is a reason why there is a shidduch crisis.
Now as far as a mamzir marrying someone, the marriage is valid just that they violated a negative prohibition and any offspring retain their negative status. As a general rule mamzarium usually die out in a generation or two either because they don’t marry or g-d makes sure they don’t have children. Just my opinion.There are halochos against not looking too much and halochos of finding ways to deny possible mazerus cases. There is no mitzva to go around with a DNA kit to uncover every possible mamzer. On the other hand. R Zeira was silently avoiding shidduch with his teacher R Yochanan’s daughter because he did not trust yichus in EY comparing w/ Bavel.
I learned recently an interesting halachic idea that you can discern an unclear case from how future unfolds. That is, if a korban intention was not stated clearly, you might be able to ascertain it from the actions that followed. This is applicable to unverifiable giur – if you see some years later that the ger is behaving appropriately (at a minimal level – keeping kosher, lighting shabbos candles), then the giyur can be confirmed retroactively. Consult your local beis din, don’t try it at home.
“What is the status of the offspring.“
Isnt that a שתוקי (from the 4th chapter of קידושין)?
none2.0 said:
“Ok let’s get down to brass tax.”
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MY RESPONSE:“OK, let’s get down to brass tacks.”
The fear of turning to minus chas vesholom is stated in the 3rd parsha of shma. Every day is a challenge and the greater the person the greater the chance. But we rely on chezkas Kashrus of yesterday as a predictor for today. Even a shochet that messed up had a chazaka yesterday. Safek mamzer is permissible min Hatorah and the Rabbis were not strict like other sfekot.
Ishpurim:
A “Safek Mamzer” has the worst of it all; he/she cannot marry a regular Jew and he/she cannot even marry a mamzer.
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