DY: That was just to throw everyone into a loop to throw at me their biggest bombshell all at once so I could get past that stage. Seems to have worked with Sam. 😉
Avram: “However, what it seems to me (and please correct me if I’m wrong) is that you are arguing that if a beis din rules ???? ????? and the husband disagrees because he really wants to stay married, he doesn’t have to listen to the beis din, because who is the beis din to tell him to divorce when the halacha doesn’t explicitly…”
I’m pleased to correct your mistaken impression. If beis din halachicly determines and rules ???? ?????, I 100% advocate the husband give a Get even in the absence of a ???? ?????. No qualifications. Regardless of why it is ???? ?????, such as the previously quoted Rambam ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????. I, too, hope you just as strongly advocate a husband give a Get in a ???? ????? situation such as that aforementioned Rambam where the husband and the wife are not seeking a Get as you do in other ???? ????? situations where the wife is seeking a Get. My advocacy for a Get in both such types of situations are equal. (But we still must ackowledge that there is a difference between a ???? ????? and a ???? ?????. And I think you and DY may be overestimating the times there is a ???? ?????.)
“If we were talking about any issue other than divorce (e.g., kashrus, tznius), I think you’d agree with me.”
Hmm, Rav Moshe in his heter for drinking cholov stam says that someone who cares about his neshama would refrain from using it. That may be analogous to a ???? ????? vs. a ???? ?????. Would we agree that someone who would follow a ???? ????? where it isn’t a ???? ????? is someone who should refrain from cholov stam? (I’m just hashing this point of yours out; I’m not yet taking a firm position on this comparison.)
Regarding your point about love. Loving someone does not equate with always granting her desire. And in situations where a request isn’t granted, that does not detract from such love; indeed it may enhance it. This point is obvious in parent/child situations but is not an attribute limited to that kind of relationship.
I agree with your point about stressing points that enhance and preserve marriages by being a good spouse and fostering proper marriage skills.
“I think the problem I have with this statement is that you are casting a much larger net with “valid reasons” than I think is valid.”
I have repeatedly stated that what is or isn’t “valid reasons” is strictly a halachic/legal matter. I haven’t even specified what is or isn’t valid reasons; I simply left it to be determined by beis din per relevant halacha. How can that possibly be disagreeable?
Now if I may be excused for letting off some irritation here. I’ve constantly said we need to follow halacha. We need to use Shulchan Aruch as our guide. I’ve justified my positions based on halacha. And in their own words quite a few posters here seemed to have expressed general or in large part agreement with the sourced positions I’ve expressed. A quick glance back and some of those expressing similar positions as myself on various points have been Lebidik Yankel, Ben Levi, aymdock, catch yourself, MyTurnAtBat, 2scents, 147, Gamanit, etc. But yet a smaller in number, but perhaps more vocal, have been yelling back ‘terrifying’, ‘evil’, on points that halacha makes. They can’t halachicly sources these boich svaras because halacha says that a Get is only given if the husband “wants” to give it. So then they say, yeah halacha says that but really halacha didn’t mean that – but rather that people shouldn’t strictly rely on said halacha but rather do what the other party is demanding of them even if it is without halachic basis because really that’s what the Chachomim want them to do. So where do we find these supposed Chazals they speak of? Only silence. Halacha does not say he has to give it if he doesn’t want to give it because halacha says he only has to give it if he wants to. (Again speaking in the absence of abuse.) Yet the disagreers here are yelling he has to want to give it if his wife wants him to give it. That is an open contradiction to what Halacha 101 of Hilchos Gittin says. Yes, it’s true that the Torah gives a husband more leeway to give a divorce almost whenever he wants to (and R”G took away many of those rights from Ashkenazic husbands and gave wives the ability to refuse to accept a Get) while the Torah grants few such rights to a wife to be able to demand a Get. Otherwise why is the Shulchan Aruch replete with definitions when a divorce is required and when it is not required (despite it being requested) and when a Jewish court should grant or when it should refuse a request for a divorce. For centuries before the 1960s revolution I don’t think too many folks questioned or argued against these halachas. But that revolution poisoned society’s outlook on traditional family relationships and in general the different roles, rights and responsibilities of the two genders. And that change in societal values to some extent rubbed off in our own communities even when such views conflicted with halacha. The Torah truth is that there are different and unequal roles, rights and responsibilities between husbands and wives. We should not only accept and respect that but embrace it. It has successfully governed our nation throughout our long exile long before contemporary gentile values seeped into our conscience.