Wow. I go away for a few days and this thread turns into a Zionism debate. The gedolim have clearly spoken on this one, and anyway it should be a new thread.
To review, there are multiple questions about yiddish being dealt with simultaneously:
1. Is Yiddish holy?
2. If it’s holy, why is it holy?
3. Does that reason also apply to English, at the same level or a lesser level?
4. If it also applies to English, even on a lesser level, does that difference make for a practical difference?
5. Should one teach children in Yiddish, either because it’s holy or because it enables one to hear shiurim in yiddish?
6. If yes, does this override other concerns like chanoch lenaar al pi darko, the mitzvah of limud torah Berabbim, etc?
Joseph, a groyse shkoyach and a blessing upon your head. 200 posts into the thread, a verifiable mekor for speaking in Yiddish is finally provided- a statement of Rav Shach ZT”L, universally held of by all the Tofsei Torah (the apikores who called him “Shach” to my face because of his views on a certain movement notwithstanding). Obviously, lo shamati bilti hayom. What is the source of this statement of Rav Shach ZT”L? The daughter of Reb Yaakov ZT”L said that 80 percent of the things said in her father’s name are sheker. People like to be “tali beashli ravrevi” and claim that a famous person said what they believe to give it credibility. that’s why one needs shimush talmidei chachamim- to hear exactly what someone said, why, and when and how it applies.
If it was Rav Shach ZT”L vs. me (assuming this quote can be verified), there would be no debate. however, like I said, my Rebbe muvhak ZT”L clearly felt not like this. The mitzvah of harbotzas Torah means that one teaches people in the language they understand. So if this statement of Rav Shach ZT”L is correct, Rav Shach ZT”L would still tell me to follow my Rebbe Muvhak ZT”L, as he was a bar samcha. The question is for everyone else. The Mara De’Asra of America, Reb Moshe ZT”L, clearly disagreed with this psak, and for a very logical reason. Just like I am not personally arguing on the Rem”a when I wait 6 hours between meat and milk, I’m not personally arguing on Rav Shach ZT”L when I hold not like him based on my personal Rebbe ZT”L and Reb Moshe ZT”L.
There is a famous story with the Chazon Ish, that someone with a certain eye problem asked him if he should go to Europe to get surgery. the Chazon Ish told him to stay put- in Eretz Yisroel, the Mechaber is the mara de’asra,and he holds the eye problem isn’t a treifa, while in europe, the Rem”a is the mara de’asra, and he holds it’s a treifa. The psakim of the gedolim affect the very metzius of the country. My experience in cheder school 30 years ago confirms the view of Reb Moshe ZT”L. I learned nothing from having to Teitch to Yiddish. I floundered. I recently spoke to the class ilui, the apple of the Rebbe’s eye, who told me that he was just parroting- he didn’t understand a word he was saying. The halacha that one is Yotzei without understanding only applies to lashon hakodesh, not to any other language. So in other words, everyone’s time was wasted, from mine (the worst guy in class) to my friend the ilui (the best guy in class).
Rav Shach ZT”L gave his shiur in a give-and-take style. He wasn’t satisfied with mindless note-takers. On the contrary, he wanted people to argue, in order for “ravcha shmatza”. Rav Shach ZT”L wanted talmidim, not chassidim. One can only get clarity of one thinks through a statement instead of following it blindly. So it would be a doing a terrible disservice to Rav Shach ZT”L if we took his statement as a gezeiras hakasuv, without assuming there’s a logic to it, and assuming that there are logical limits. It’s only fair to assume that Rav Shach ZT”L, if he made this statement, would not apply it in a situation where it leads to frustration and turning people off from learning and Yiddishkeit. Furthermore, there is the famous statement of Rav Shach ZT”L that if he learned less at his Shabbos table and sang more zemiros, his kids would have stayed frummer, and he wouldn’t have had chiloni eineklach. It’s a kol shekein that in america, where many kids are leaving the derech because they aren’t getting a geshmak from learning, that we shouldn’t throw up yet another michshol in their path. It would only be fair to Rav shach ZT”L to say that he never meant his statement to apply to a metzius like nowadays.
I heard a “droosha” on Shabbos in Yiddish at the chassidishe shteeble my inlaws daven at. The drosha was based on Rav Pam ZT”L quoting an Ohr Hachaim Hakodosh. Was it holier because he said “masneh zein” instead of “be masneh”? I didn’t think so. The gemara mentions lashon hakodesh, Unkelos as given on har sinai, and Greek ( based on the passuk of “Yaft elokim leYefes veyishkon beahalei Aheim). Teitch just isn’t in there. As was pointed out earlier, when Jews first switched from Aramaic and Hebrew to German, which became modified to Jedeo-german, and started adopting local German names like Freyda,Feige,Sheina, Feibush, Berel, etc, I’m sure there were those who said “Aramaic is the loshon of all Jews, and one shouldn’t speak this goyishe loshon and adopt goyishe names”. A millenium later, this is now a lashon hakodesh? “Licht” is holier than “light”? “Zein” is holier than “be”
At this chassidishe shteeble I davened at, the Hebrew seforim were in the main beis midrash. the Yiddish and English seforim were in the other room. they knew what was holy and what was not.
Ironic that the guy here using a Yiddish name is saying Yiddish is not holy, while someone using a very anglicized name is arguing the exact opposite.
I am not familiar with the Chassam sofer you quote (that’s Even Ha’ezer 2:11 right?) It is now definitely on my “look-up list”. My biggest kashyas on it are from Parshas Vayeizei, where Yaakov insistys on calling the pile “Gal eid” instead of yigar sahadusa, and 2 Kings 18:26 which clearly states that the Jews did not speak Aramaic. A proof to the chassam sofer is from the coins of the War against Rome, which used ksav ivri instead of ksav ashuris because it was of a lesser kedusha. the Mahara”l (somewhere in Tiferes Yisroel) brings down also that the first luchos were in Ashuris and the second in Ksav Ivris. Another proof to the Chassam Sofer would be Chumach Devorim, whish, as the Gr”a points out, is moshe Rabbeinu’s words. There are phrases like “azlas yad” and “asah merivevos kodesh”.
That said, I don’t get your application of the Chassam Sofer. Mima nafshach- if Ivrit isn’t fully lashon hakodesh, then it qualifies to fit into the chassam sofer. Why is a German offshoot with phrases from chaza”l holier than an offshoot of loshon Hakodesh with Chazal phrases? And why is one German offshoot (Yiddish) holier than another (English)? And if it’s holier, does it really override the words of Shlomo hamelech of “Chanoch lenaar al pi darko”? Does it really ovveride the mitzvah deoraysah of “velimadetem”? Is speaking and teaching in Yiddish really worth the karbanos of kids not enjoying the sweetness of Torah? Speaking yiddish is a reshus or an inyan. Teaching torah is a mitzvah deoraysah.
Time to go hunt down a Chassam sofer.