Syag
I am not sure why you have a problem with “A comatose patient in an ICU is literaly taking a bed that can go to somebody else.”
I’m guesing it is along the line of what you said earlier “will be believing full well that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it”
This leads to an off topic classic hishtadlus question.
Should a person who has chest pain go to the hospital or stay home and have belief in Hashem “that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it” ?
Should he go to a hospital with percuateus corinary intervention available or have belief in Hashem “that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it” ?
A hospital with PCI but not a CCU or have belief in Hashem “that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it” ?
etc etc etc
The “best hospital” available or any “doc in the box”
I am not mocking, these are classic hishtadlus questions and I dont know neccesarily where the line is drawn.
Most poskim I beleive would say to go to the best hospital available. If a hospital had a full ICU and the patient would not get as good care. I am guessing that most (all?) poskim would say to avoid that hospital even though that would be contradicting “” believing full well that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it””
These questions are well above my paygrade, and I am not qualified to address them.
Joseph
It is clear from your post that you have not read what I am saying.
“The comatose patient can die without the bed. How is that “a bed that can better serve somebody else”?
You are saying that the comatose patient’s life is less valuable than the non-comatose patient.”
i am not saying that, as I have repeatedly stressed. All I am saying is that it is not evil to say that.
There are times where we assign “value” to one life over another. The idea that all lives are equal is a cute idea and a nice one for people not invloved but does not fit reality.
Here are a few halchic determinats that perhaps you are not aware of.
needless to say this is far from halacha lemaseh, I am just providing you with sources so that you realize the problem I raise are real, and people arent automaticly “Evil” if they reach different conclusions than us.
BM 62a regarding one flask for two people “chayecha kodem” (though it is a machlokes)
The mishna in horias says a “man comes before a woman” and Kohen before levi before yisroel” “a yisroel before a mamzer” and a talmid chacham before all etc… Granted that is regarding tzedaka but some poskim use that for triage in halacha.
Poskim understand these halachas in different ways.
for example the Netziv in haemek sheilah understands the sugya in B”M to mean that chayeh olam trumps chayeh shah (even for two people) which could mean that the comatose patient who is “taking up a bed” in the ICU (assuming he is a chayeh shah, which is not hard to imagine) should in fact be transferred out to “better serve somebody else” who is a chayeh olam. there are other achronim who learn the sugya this way. So be very careful before you discard it as “modern Western thought corrupt your values away from Torah values.”
R’ Yakav Emden in YD says explicitly that a healthy young person comes before a sick old person.
Not all poskim learn this way, it is a very complicated sugya
And please please dont think I am paskening one way or another ch”v. I said this several times, but it is still somehow getting lost.
All I am saying is this: Triage is a complicated issue. There are not enough resources (staff, beds and yes money) to help everybody.
Halacha guides us in the correct decision, sometimes for people not versed in these issues, the halachas are surprising and there are often machlokisim involved like in all areas of halacha.
For people who come to conclusions that are different than halacha (not me for the umpteenth time) it isnt because they come from a dark evil place.
p.s. please dont get caught up on the specifics of the halachas above. In addition to it being a complicated sugya with literally life-death consequences, each case has subtle differences that can and will change the halacha. But the ideas behind the shitas above are at least theoretically in some cases applicable, at least according to those who hold those shitas.
I’d be happy to provide more mareh mekomos if youd like. Some of these are based on an article in Hakira, RJJ or I forget where i’ll try to dig it up if anybody is interested.