Can you please cite where this is halacha? I would be very interested in reading such a ruling.
yekke2: When else do we kill someone due to ??????? ???????, in situations where ???? ????? is inapplicable?
I will look for the exact Mareh Mekomos when I have a chance. It is muchach in Sanhedrin 73a. The Ketzois also writes mefurash that you kill a ???? because of ?????? ??????? in Meshovav Siman 3.
I haven’t answered your questions directly. I haven’t seen any Mareh Mokom about this exact case; what I wrote above was my own application that if it would be ?? ????, you would have to kill him. (The Minchas Chinuch in Mitzvah 237 disagrees with me, but he is clear in ?? that there is no issur of ?? ????)
sorry if the insult sounded like a compliment–let me make it clearer: Have your head checked, because the cerebral cortex within seems to be malfunctioning.
I understood the first time that it was an insult. I was merely pointing out that any insult in an intellectual discussion not written together with a logical argument is paramount to admitting defeat.
I’m not aware of anyone who says suicide is an issur of ?? ????.
I think the ??? ???? ??”? ??”? brings from the ?????? ???? on the Posuk “?? ?????” = “?? ????” that ???? ???? ???? is ???? ??? ????. There is an ?????? in the Achronim about it; I don’t have many seforim with me on holiday to check it up. See also ???? ????? ???? ?”? who says it ISN’T ?? ????, and in Hagahos R’ Yerucham Fishel Perlow there.
See also ????? ?”? ??’ ? who apparently entertains a tzad that suicide is muttar [Lo Lemaisah!!].
Secondly, even assuming it is, he wouldn’t be a rodeif–if there’s no nirdaf, there can’t be a rodeif.
As I wrote before, it isn’t about Roidef or Nirdaf per se, it is about preventing him being oiver ?? ????.
The Brisker Rov, and perhaps others, does indeed say there are two dinnim, but ???? ????? is definitely needed, as is evident from the ??? of ???? ???? ??????.
Which Brisker Rav are you referring to? I remember one about ??? ????? ???? ?????, but that is referring to the ???? himself, and that actually doesn’t need ???? ?????.
What is evident from the din of ???? ???? ??????? Even if it is to stop him from transgressing the issur, this will not allow you to kill him if you can do it any other way. (There is a third tzad that it isn’t to stop the issur, it is an ????. [see ????? ?? ?”? ??’ ? and R’ Chaim Stensel] – your point of ???? ????? might be a ???? on that third tzad). I’m not sure what you see from ???? ????? regarding ???? ?????.
I forgot to say that not eating isn’t a violation of ?? ????.
If suicide is considered ?? ????, why should starvation not be suicide? I would have said like you logically, and I think R’ Chaim in Sefer writes that there can be no such thing as ?? ??? ???? by ?????, although Tosfos clearly argues with that. Tosfos holds that you can be ???? ????? ??? ??? ????, but it just isn’t ???? ??? ?????.
Disclaimer: I have not seen inside many of the Mareh Mekomos I mentioned before posting. Some of these are from memory, other’s I have seen quoted but not checked up. Use at your own risk.