Reply To: Zionism, Why the Big Debate?

Yosi7:

You wrote:

Avi K: the amount of Sheker spread in you post is unbelievable.

I think that is a bit of an overstatement. It is true that none of the codes codify the oaths. Your only claim is that there are some Rishonim/Acharonim who did hold the oaths to be halachically binding. Before I address your sources, I will just quote R’ Moshe Feinstein:

????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ???”? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???????? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??????

Now as to your sources:

1) The Riaz: After discussing the virtues of living in Israel, he writes:

????”? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???’ ???????? ??’ ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ?????

This is probably your best source.

2) Maharsha: First of all, it’s in the Chidushei Aggados, not the Chidushei Halachos. He says:

??? ???? ????? ????? ??’. ?”? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??”? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???’ ????? ???? ??? ??”? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???’ ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ?”? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?????. ?????? ?????? ????. ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???’ ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ???’ ??’ ??????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???”?. ??? ????? ?? ??? ??’. ???? ???”? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???’ ??”?

He is saying pshat in the gemara, not saying practical halacha.

3) Rivash: It’s not in siman 110; it’s in siman 101. He says:

????? ????? ???? ???? ???’ ??”? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???”? ???? ??’ ??? ????? ?????? (??:) ???? ????? ???? ??’ ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?’ ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???”? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???’ ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ???”? ?????? ??? ???? ?????

He is not quite saying that the oaths are halachically binding.

4) Rashbash: After saying that there is a mitzvah applicable in all times to live in Israel, he says:

???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???”? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?”? ?? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? and he then reiterates that there is still a mitzvah on every individual. And he does not say “that his grandfather also said that during Galus it is not a general mitzvah on all of klal Yisroel because that is an issur!”

5) Rashash: The only comment he makes about the oaths is to change ????? to ?????.

6) Yaavetz: He also changes ????? to ????? and about the oath of ??? ???? ?? ??? he writes:

??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???????? which has nothing to do with whether the oaths are halachically binding.

7) Yafeh Einayim: He says ?’ ?????? ????. ????”? ?”? ?’ ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???’ ???? ?”? ???”? ??’ ???? ??? ?’ ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????. ??? ?????. ??’ ???”? ??”?. ??? ????. ??’ ??”? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ?”?

which also has nothing to do with whether the oaths are halachically binding.

8) Megillas Esther: It’s not on Mitzvah 4; it’s on the fourth mitzvah on the Ramban’s list of mitzvos that the Rambam forgot. He says:

???? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?????

??????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??????

??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???’ ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????”? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????’ ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?”? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??”? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?”? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???

9) Ramban: I assume you are referring to Sha’ar 1 Perek 12. He says:

???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? [??????] ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????

???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????

He is not discussing the oaths from Kesubos.

10) Rambam: He writes:

???? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ??? which does not seem to be a statement about the halachic bindingness of the oaths.

11) Maharal: I’m not going to quote it since it’s several pages long. But here is the link: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=42853&st=&pgnum=543 In his Chiddushei Aggados on the Gemara in Kesubos he writes similarly: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14194&st=&pgnum=190

Again though, he is not really discussing what is halachically permissible for Jews to do; he is discussing the galus that Hashem was gozer.

12) Kaftor V’ferach: He writes:

???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???’ ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????

To summarize:

The only ones who explicitly apply the oaths in practice are the Riaz, the Rashbash, the Megillas Esther, and the Kaftor V’ferach (maybe you could put the Maharal in this category). And even within these four, not a single one of them says that it’s assur. So was it correct for Avi K to say that it’s a halachic non-starter? Ok, maybe non-starter was too strong of a term. But the fact remains that none of the codes codify it.

As per my original post on this thread, what I have just written is not an advocation for Zionism. It is simply a halachic discussion.