Reply To: Halachos of a bar

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rebdoniel
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woman.

Tosafot here, DH V’Tarvehu, say that we never find that sheichar is assur anywhere in the mishna, or in the beraisa, but that this gezeira may have only started in the days of the amoraim.

The gemara says that Rav Papa and Rav Achai would drink beer from a goy on the porch or somewhere away from the goyim. Tosfos says that this issur wouldn’t apply if you rented space from the goyim, since that is them considered the Jew’s home. Thus, Tosafot hold that the problem here is chatnut. If there is no issue of chatnut, you can take a drink in a bar. Likewise, the Rosh, AZ perek beit, siman tet vav, says that taking a drink among goyim in a way that is not be keviut, but in a way that’s k’derech arai, happenstance, is acceptable. The Mechaber writes (YD siman kuf yud daled, seif aleph) that all beer of goyim, whether of dates, or tevua, or honey, etc. is asur mishum chatnut, ve eina assur ela be makom micharoso. But if you bring it back home and drink it there, it’s mutar. He says it’s assur to drink the beer in a place where goyim fraternize. There’s certainly a chashash of chatnut in drinking out in a bar. The ShA says that there can be exceptions to drinking with goyim, such as if the place where you’re drinking isn’t kevua to social drinking, or if it’s done k’derech arai, you avoid problems. But social drinking among goyim is assur mishum chatnut.

Likewise, the Rosh discusses drinking a honey-based beverage made by goyim (non-alcoholic) among goyim, and he says it’s forbidden due to chatnut. Therefore, fraternizing in a coffee house would be problematic, according to this understanding. The gist of this Rosh is that there is a serious chashash for socializing with goyim over drinks, which has an intimacy and certain social element to it. ShA says that this non-alcoholic honey beer is also forbidden, due to chatnut.

However, the Rema says that people in Poland/Ashkenaz were decidedly lenient on this matter. They’d drink non-alcoholic beer among goyim, and if we thus accept the Rema, then social activities involving drinks (such as coffee, etc.) should be ok.

The Yad Ephraim, however, speaks within a more relevant context, I feel. He quotes R’ Yaakov Emden, who forbids Jews from drinking coffee with goyim. Granted, in Europe, especially places like Vienna, the 17th and 18th century was the height of haute coffee house culture. People socialized, read, organized, and did all kinds of things in the coffee houses, which were the center of social life. Drinking coffee k’derech keva, he says is an issue. Pri Megadim holds like the Rema. The Chayei Adam says drinking coffee among goyim is a bad idea, and someone should avoid these situations, and Aruch haShulchan says it’s commendable to avoid social drinking. R’ Herschel Schachter holds le ma’aseh that it’s assur to also socially drink (even coffee) in a place like Starbuck’s, kal ve chomer, a bar.

If one drinks k’derech keva, that seems problematic, but if one grabs a drink on the run, that’s seemingly acceptable. In the case of a person on a shidduch date, or doing business, I don’t see how chatnut would apply, since the person is in a bar not to socialize, but to either date a Jew, or talk business, or to complete an interview. Going to a bar on a Saturday night where there are a bunch of singles and a lot of pritzut is a scene that Jews should avoid, for sure.