To catch yourself — yes, you read my initial post correctly. Although you read it as written from a place of severe bitterness, cynicism, negativity and derisiveness, I had hoped that the examples would forcefully illustrate some of the mishiga’as that pervades our community. The irresponsibility of not appropriately planning for the future leads way too many young men to end up turning 30, with little education, no training, and only desperate means of supporting themselves and their families. If they are not cut out to be a magid shiur, a school rebbe, a kiruv professional, etc — and that describes at least half of our young men — then they are stuck in a terribly stressful position, and “the system” has failed them.
It is absolutely wonderful that we live in a time and place where so many of us can sit and learn — it is mamash a brachah that we have never in our history seen on this scale. Of course we need roshei yeshiva, magidei shiur, and even school rebbes that know the difference between Brachose and Bchorose, and between a Nesivose (Hamishpat) and a Nesivose Shalom. And I 100% support the high-quality yeshivose that will provide am yisroel with the learners and leaders that we desperately need.
At the same time, I see tremendous irresponsibility in the system that leaves so many young men in positions of destitution and dependence on their parents, their in-laws, and social welfare. These people believe they are ma’aminim bnei ma’aminim, betuchim bnei btuchim. It leads to very sad stories, even among those who can honestly say about themselves im tivakshena kakesef uchmatmunim tichapsenah. If my post pushes even one person to think a bit more deeply about their own emunah, bitachon, and the decisions they make, and pushes them to take even one step towards ensuring a responsible path for themselves or their friends, I will be consider the post as having served an important to’eles.
In all honesty, thank you for your inspiringly thoughtful and respectful response. I hope that all of us can continue to communicate respectfully about weighty matters, ha’omdim b’rumo shel olam.
Avram in MD — “If you truly want to convince people to move in a different direction, provide some suggestions or ideas.”
Here is one small step. Yeshiva high schools can take more seriously basic mathematics and writing. The ability to perform addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, and basic algebraic manipulation is crucial to everything from home economics to business to taxes. Jobs that would take someone that lacks these skills (or who has very poor versions of these skills) are very few and poorly paid. Attempting to make up ground in this area when one is trying to take some college courses or professional training is a nightmare. Likewise, basic reading, comprehension, and writing are also skills necessary for almost any decent job. These are necessary skills for almost any job, yet many yeshiva high-schools do not take either seriously, and neither do the bochrim. Too many times have I heard parents, of good bochrim in excellent yeshivas, speak about these subjects as a liability of a good yeshiva.
I have too many friends who have gone back to school or have tried finding work after many years learning, and lack these skills. It is a miserable place to be in. Even 40 minutes a day, four days a week, but taken seriously, of learning basic mathematics and basic reading/comprehension/writing would go a very along way to ensuring that our boys are well-equipped should they one day choose to do something other than learning.
As an aside, the ability to coherently write is a skill that will serve them very well in the world of learning, rabbanus, kiruv, etc also.
gavra_at_work – “If you teach secular studies to all 1000, none of them will become a Gadol. (In practice there are quite a few counterexamples, but that is the theory.)”
As gavra_at_work himself points out, this is not even true — every person here can name a dozen undisputed gedolim who had extensive secular educations. This includes gedolei harishonim and gedolei ha’achronim ad hayome hazeh.
Moreover, your choice of citing R’ Dessler is particularly puzzling given that R’ Dessler learned in, and eventually spoke highly of, the yeshiva in Kelm. As wikipedia will tell you, this yeshiva “was unusual in the sense that it provided its pupils with a secular education parallel to their religious studies, enabling them to earn a livelihood rather than having to take up rabbinic positions.” So unless you are suggesting that R’ Dessler himself was somewhat lacking in Torah because of his secular studies education, I suggest you rethink your point.
Also, “The idea of a Yeshiva (Al Pi Rav Dessler, and what many of the “Frum” Yeshivos hold L’maase) is that the 999 should fail out so that the one who is pushed can become a Gadol.” Do you really think that if you asked R’ Dessler, or a single gadol byisroel anywhere, that they would tell you better that 999 *fail* to produce 1 gadol?!?! Since when do we not care about 999/1000 of acheinu? I’m not sure what you meant but this sounds absolutely awful — I would never speak like this with my child in mind, and I’m sure neither would you, nor any gadol byisroel.
Finally, of course it’s true that engaging in an extensive secular education will come at the expense of developing into a true talmid chachom. Learning Torah requires dedication and focus and long hours of ameilus. There is no way that a person can spend hours and hours a day doing something other than learning Torah, especially in their formative years, and expect to become a talmid chacham. However, we are not discussing an extensive secular education with hours a day of literature and history and science and social studies, but merely some basic skills that will serve boys well both in talmud torah and beyond daled koslei beis hamedrash.
Also, here is something that I don’t think you understand. Yeshivas that insist that its bochrim devote themselves 100% of their time to Torah, and do not allow college classes, don’t necessarily view those attending college as “failures who need to be kicked out”. Their point is that in order to maintain a high level of seriousness, its talmdimim must be focused, to the exclusion of other focuses.
There are plenty of very successful bochrim who have chosen at some point to leave full-time learning so they can earn a parnassah to support themselves and their families. That is very important, but that doesn’t mean it should happen while the bochur is in the yeshiva.
Many years ago Harvard (or another one of the ivy league colleges) had a rule that you were not allowed to be married while a graduate student there. The idea was that if the institution is supporting you, then you need to be 100% focused on what you are studying there. Of course everyone has things on which they spend some of their time, but the schools did not allow its students to have serious responsibilities outside of their “learning” lhavdil. The importance of focus is important, of course, in yeshiva just as well.
gavra_at_work –“People know better than to shout unpopular shittos from the rooftops which will cause backlash.”
Go speak with any rosh yeshiva of any respectable institution. Not only will they not yell this from rooftops, they wouldn’t even tell this to you bchedrei chadarim. Because it’s not true. Unless they are secretly sadistic horrible people, no rosh yeshiva runs an institutions that aims to produce one gem at the cost of leaving hundreds in the dust. It’s not true at BMG, it’s not true in the Mir, it’s not true in Rabeinnu Chaim Berlin, Philly, Torah V’Daas, Riverdale, South Fallsburg or anywhere else.
“The quote from Vaykira Rabbah of course does not mean anything the likes of what you took it to mean.
Not me, Rav Dessler. Argue with him.”
This is another unfair misattribution. Read again what R’ Dessler zt”l wrote in the link you sent. He is describing what occurs in many yeshivas, and how they are run. To justify what is going on there he writes “I heard that justification of the Rashei Yeshiva to pay such a heavy price to produce Gedolei Torah was Vayikra Rabbah 2:1….” He’s not claiming to believe in this shita, he’s not promoting this shita, and it’s not clear (from the link at least) that he thinks it’s a smart idea. He’s just trying to understand why some places function the way they do, and to do that he’s citing how some people try to justify it. So I don’t think it’s fair to attribute this perverse “shita” to him.