“I don’t see your point. Chareidim basically means Jews who are not Zionist. It is also possible to use the term to refer to Jews who are Zionist but choose to label themselves according to the fact that they are Chareidim as opposed to labeling themselves by their zionism.”
“Okay. Just be aware this includes anyone who self-identifies as a Chareidi, and excludes anyone who doesn’t, whether they are Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos, follow Gedolim, etc. It is actually very similar to the Liberal definition of “Woman” being anyone who self-identifies as such, no matter whether they are physically a woman or not.
I meant to say anyone who is “shomer Torah u’Mitzvos” and does not identify as dati-leumi. I don’t know what the exact level of “shomer Torah u’Mitzvos would be. I think that would be debatable, just as the definition of “frum” is debatable.
I think it does have a lot to do with a person’s choice as to how they choose to define themselves.
As for the guy who is “shomer Torah u’Mitvos but votes Meretz”, his anti-Zionism has nothing in common with the Chareidi’s anti-zionism. His anti-Zionism has more in common with Obama’s anti-zionism. No shaychis. In the ways in which Obama (or l’havdil the Meretz guy) are anti-zionist, I (and probably most or many Chareidim) are the biggest Zionists.
“It also means that there were no Chareidim before people started to self-identify using that term.”
As I wrote above, I think the term actually started with non-Chareidim. In any case, there were Chareidim before that, but the term “chareidi” wasn’t used. Just like there were Jews even though they weren’t called Jews. And just like there were Frum people even though they weren’t called Frum.
Actually, just about everyone was Frum and Chareidi at one point. These terms only started being used when there was a significant portion of the population that wasn’t.
There is another way to define “Chareidi” which would have to do with one’s religious level as opposed to one’s hashkafa. According to that definition, Chardalniks would be considered “Chareidi” as well as most Yidden before 200 or so years ago. I think that the definition that I used is the most accurate though. And those are the only two definitions that I think are at all accurate. As opposed to the term “Yeshivish” which can be used in a sociological sense.
In any case, I do consider myself Chareidi and Frum and Shomer Torah u’Mitzvos, so I have to go light my Menora now.
Freilichin Chanuka to one and all (however you label yourself).