Reply To: Is "Haredism" a Movement?

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#1207259
Lilmod Ulelamaid
Participant

The term Chareidi predates the term Dati. Chareidi was used to refer to all Frum people. At some point, those who wished to disassociate themselves from the Chareidi world while still remaining religious (but more modern) started calling themselves Dati.

While different terms can be and are used differently by different people, many (and I think most) people in Israel consider “Dati” to mean less Frum than “Chareidi”. Many, if not, most Israeli Chilonim will use the term “Chareidi” to refer to anyone “very Frum /sincerely Frum”. People who are very Frum and tzioni usually refer to themselves as either Dati Chazak or Chareidi Leumi or Chareidi.

Since the word Chareidi is not usually used in America (until recently, I don’t think it was used at all, and now it is just starting to be used), Americans usually assume that the word “Chareidi” refers to something specific that does not exist in the US, and they don’t realize that it is simply the Israeli word for Frum for the most part.

I think most people in the CR live in America. I don’t know if anyone here has lived here as long as I have (close to 30 years). Having lived here for many years and spoken to many people, this is my definite impression as to how many, if not most Israelis use the term “Chareidi”.I have not taken an official survey, so I can’t say 100% that that is how most people use the term, and of course these things can change over time. I was out of the country for a few years, so it is theoretically possible that things changed over the past few years, although I doubt they changed that much. It seems to me that the majority of people do use the term that way, but if not, it is certainly a significant minority.

I know someone dati-leumi who was referred to in the secular newspapers as being Chareidi because he was learning on a bus when he was shot at and he was saved by his sefer when the bullet or missile hit the sefer instead of him (at least I think the story went something like that – I don’t remember the exact details anymore). They assumed he was Chareidi because he was learning.

And I can tell you of many times when I heard Chilonim use the terms “Chareidi” to refer to anyone who was sincerely Frum. And most people I know who are seriously Frum and tzioni do not call themselves “Dati” by itself. They either say Chareidi Leumi or Dati Chazak or Chareidi.

All of you who are arguing with me about this – How many years have you lived in Israel? How many Israeli Chilonim have you spoken to? Do you have immediate family members who are Israeli dati-leumi and Chilonim like I do and do you know how they use the terms?

I will concede that it is possible that things have changed in the past 5 years (although I doubt it) and that there are people who use these terms differently. But it definitely was the way that many (if not most) people used the term up until 5 years ago, and it certainly was the original usage of the terms.

Very important point I almost forgot to mention: If you want to see the origin of the terms Chareidi and Dati as well as a definition of the terms, See “Defenders of the Faith by Sam Heilman.

You can find the pages that discuss this topic if you google the words “origin of the term Chareidi” or something like that. At least it worked yesterday, but today I’m having trouble finding it that way.

If you read this, you will see very clearly that “Chareidi” was the original term used to refer to Frum people, and “Dati” was a new thing.