Reply To: The Wicked Son, and the Kiruv System

@Smerel:

I know this unpopular to say

That was sort of the point of the thread. My perception of the Haggadah leads me to this conclusion as well. This is against the advice of all the big chinuch experts these days. I’m wondering how they answer this – that the Haggadah doesn’t mean what I think it does, or that the children of todays generation have changed?

Important to note is that we aren’t just talking about a child who stopped being observant; the Haggadah refers to him as a Koifer Be’IKar (meaning that he goes against the Ikrei Hadas). Such a person is “אינו בכלל ישראל”, and many dinim בין אדם לחבירו do not apply to him. It is very possible that our attitude would be different to a rebellious son who is NOT a כופר בעיקר. I guess it depends what הוציא עצמו מן הכלל means?

You say “the whole concept of unconditional is a morally bankrupt one”: Why do you say that? Because it’s not effective? Or do you think that even though it is effective, it is wrong to show חניפה to Oivrei Aveirah?