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Avi K: You know that one who has not served in the army is not allowed to enter the workforce. One who does not recognize the state should not have to serve in the army. And it does not matter how religious the army is, how kosher the food is or how many shiurim they give. The army is a no-go for any frum guy, as it tries very hard (and has succeeded for a large part) to create a new Yid R”L, one who adheres to halacha but in his walk and talk is indistinguisable from Esav. Daas Torah and Daas Baalei Batim clash in this discussion, as the populists will continue to insist we need an army. We have survived for close to 2,000 yrs w/o an army just relying on the Middos of Yaakov avinu. After we took up the weapons of Esav everything went downhill. It used to be that anyone who denied Hashem was considered not our fellow. Apparently now it’s the people who deny the legitimacy of the medinah, who are outcast by the am haaratzim of Klal Yisroel.